Time For a Real Discussion: Sages/Sorceres

[Rheeling]

This is most likely going to be a fairly lengthy post, for which I apologize. However, I'm hoping to start a real, rational, and logical discussion on what could be changed about the Sage/Sorcerer advanced class to make the masses happy. I will try to play devil's advocate for both arguments.

 

Thread Rules: This is not a "Sorcs need a nerf!" or "Sages are completely fine" thread. If you post, try to keep it as a constructive, thought out way to change the class to where it wouldn't be a waste of space, yet wouldn't be the "Superman" of all classes.

 

Debating an issue is fine, just please try to keep all debates on topic, rational, abuse free, and don't post false "data".

 

My personal background/experience with the class: I have leveled a Sage to 42. I went the Balance/Madness route all the way to the top. I leveled just through PvP, so I have a very good understanding of the class and how to play that spec. While that may not be the level 50 experience I would like, it's quite a bit. I have played against MANY level 50's, however, on my 50 Vanguard main, so I do still understand what they're like top level.

 

Those who know the Talent Trees well can skip over this next part, and continue reading at the next colored segment.

 

Now, before we can really get into a detailed discussion on this topic, people have to understand the build options available for the class. While they only have 2 "types" of builds (Healing and Damage), there are a number of very interesting viable builds.

 

First, the full Balance/Madness tree. My specialty. This build will allow for a total of 3 dots available. Two are instant, and one of the instant casts has a 2 second root attached to it. This build is very effective for kiting and 1v1 situations. The issue for opponents with this build will be the "surprise" element. Most opponents don't realize I'm attacking them in this spec until I have all 3 dots on them, and have started casting another attack. You'll be at a hefty health deficit when the fight "starts" for you.

 

The Telekenetics/Lightning tree puts you in more of a "turret" mode. You'll get nice procs off of main abilities, and you're granted a wonderful casted aoe. The shield boost, along with the stun on break, is in this tree as well. Offering even more CC.

 

As far as the healing spec goes, its strength is pretty straight forward. Faster heal times, procs for more efficient heals, and an aoe heal at the top of the tree.

 

People have also been combining these trees to hybrids, which can offer them more CC at the expense of damage, or slightly faster heals without much penalty. Just understand that a Sage/Sorc who has tons of CC through talenting won't be able to put out the same numbers as other builds. The last understanding we need to come to, is that a Damage specced Sage/Sorc can't heal quite as well as people have been claiming. The ability to sacrifice health for force allows them to spam heal themselves, usually in an effort to gain medals. The damage their bubble absorbs goes into healing stats as well.

 

Talent Tree explenations are finished, those who skipped can continue reading here.

 

So, Sages/Sorcs are consistently topping damage charts. That's the biggest issue I've seen on the forums. But, they're not getting very large crits. What does this mean? They're being allowed to free cast too much in the back of the pack, and (the good ones) aren't putting themselves in vulnerable positions to people other than their target.

 

Try attacking a Sage/Sorc next time you're not in a health deficit. You'll notice that they only toss up a couple dots, then go to defense mode. A targeted Sage/Sorc's damage output is severely diminished because they know they're squishy. Pressuring the ones you see will practically eliminate them from the game (barring complete 1v1's, those can be difficult). Allowing them to free-cast is going to wreck your team.

 

But for now, let's say they really are just doing too much damage, and have too much utility (CC and escape methods) to justify it. We have 2 options. Tone down their damage output, or reduce their defenses. The most viable thing I've been able to think of which might solve a decent chunk of problems would be this:

 

Increase the debuff timer on the Shield. I know, seems small right? But the fact that it can be up for a solid 20-25% of most encounters has been causing problems for people. They're having their bread and butter abilities just canceled, and then they don't really have anything to follow up with. With an increased debuff time (let's say 45 seconds), the Sage/Sorc can't just shield and heal after one or two LoS's. Their 1v1 utility will be a bit compromised, as I personally think it's a bit strong right now anyway. So a lone Sage/Sorc will now be more targetable, and will most likely retreat immediately if picked out.

 

The end!

 

I'm looking forward to any other feedback you might have to provide. If you haven't played a Sage/Sorc to a significant level, then please try not to make wild claims unless you can actually back them up, even if that just means you can explain it by looking at the skill tree. And if you do play one, please try to stay open minded to your class being altered.

 

If I am misinformed anywhere in this post, please let me know and I will try to make changes as necessary.

 

Let's keep this respectful, constructive, and creative. Neither allowing a class that might be too strong to go unchanged, or nerfing it into oblivion will help the balance of this game. Thank you for reading, and I apologize for the length.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Rheeling

[Khadroth]

You'll get nice procs off of main abilities, and you're granted a wonderful casted aoe, which can also be talented into an aoe mezz.

 

Wrong. TKwave/Chain Lightning can become instant cast on proc, never can it stun/slow any target. Force Quake/Force Storm can slow targets, but that is a latent part of the ability, not gained from talents.

 

People have also been combining these trees to hybrids, which can offer them more CC at the expense of damage, or slightly faster heals without much penalty. Just understand that a Sage/Sorc who has tons of CC through talenting won't be able to put out the same numbers as other builds. The last understanding we need to come to, is that a Damage specced Sage/Sorc can't heal quite as well as people have been claiming. The ability to sacrifice health for force allows them to spam heal themselves, usually in an effort to gain medals. The damage their bubble absorbs goes into healing stats as well.

 

True and untrue at the same time. While what you say about bubble and NS are correct, a geared sage legitly healing can still put up crazy numbers (I've seen 600k), so you can't always assume a Sage is cheat-healing to get higher numbers.

 

Talent Tree explenations are finished, those who skipped can continue reading here.

 

So, Sages/Sorcs are consistently topping damage charts. That's the biggest issue I've seen on the forums. But, they're not getting very large crits. What does this mean? They're being allowed to free cast too much in the back of the pack, and (the good ones) aren't putting themselves in vulnerable positions to people other than their target.

 

Try attacking a Sage/Sorc next time you're not in a health deficit. You'll notice that they only toss up a couple dots, then go to defense mode. A targeted Sage/Sorc's damage output is severely diminished because they know they're squishy. Pressuring the ones you see will practically eliminate them from the game (barring complete 1v1's, those can be difficult). Allowing them to free-cast is going to wreck your team.

 

Not true again on all accounts. Sages/Sorcs are focus fired more than any other class, in part because a majority of idiot players automatically assume you to be a healer and also because they're generally hated, and squishy once you get past the shield. The reason we put up high dmg is because we have both dots and aoe in droves, so even while dead our numbers keep climbing, and while alive we're hitting multiple targets a lot. We're also built for mobilty in our pvp spec and thus a good Sage/Sorc accels at LoSing attackers, and buying time to get to the next bubble, while they wear you down.

 

That said, pressuring me, doesn't make my dmg drop significantly, and if you're not successful in killing me frequently you actually will make my dmg go up (because you're grouping up on an aoe class). I will agree though, at the same time, ignoring me will just make me wreck you, as those dots really begin to accumulate.

 

But for now, let's say they really are just doing too much damage, and have too much utility (CC and escape methods) to justify it. We have 2 options. Tone down their damage output, or reduce their defenses. The most viable thing I've been able to think of which might solve a decent chunk of problems would be this:

 

Increase the debuff timer on the Shield. I know, seems small right? But the fact that it can be up for a solid 20-25% of most encounters has been causing problems for people. They're having their bread and butter abilities just canceled, and then they don't really have anything to follow up with. With a increased debuff time (let's say 45 seconds), the Sage/Sorc can't just shield and heal after one or two LoS's. Their 1v1 utility will be a bit compromised, as I personally think it's a bit strong right now anyway. So a lone Sage/Sorc will now be more targetable, and will most likely retreat immediately if picked out.

 

There's the third option, buff up the other classes. BW said throughout beta, that the Sage/Sorcs had an amazingly well done set of talent trees and that they were trying to bring other classes up to that level. We were the model for what they wanted other classes to be like. Since then they've done that, most notably with the Sentinel/Marauder who before had no survivability, but now have some of the best cooldowns in the game and 3 viable and interesting talent trees.

 

I will admit, I think part of what irks people about the Sage/Sorc is the relative ease with which someone can step into the class. I'm not against making it a bit more complex to achieve the same numbers, but honestly I think their output all around is mostly where it should be (especially with the Salvation nerf). I do think other classes need a bit more utility, but not at the cost of more complexity.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Khadroth

[Rheeling]

Holy crap, so sorry about that blatantly wrong speccing information. I never was a fan of how that Telekenetics tree played so I never spent much time in it. I read Force Wave as the Telekentic Wave ability. Thank you for pointing that out, I'll edit the info so it's correct.

 

For the Damage spec putting up crazy heal numbers, I just haven't seen that on my server to date. And anyone who got close, I saw sacrificing their health to get there. I've tried being an effective healer myself while damage specced, but I seemed to run out of force too consistently and couldn't pull out the healer-esque numbers. Looks like I made a poor assumption there.

 

You don't have to stop your attacks in lieu of defending yourself/escaping when focused? That's either really impressive or we have different ideas of being focused. I was reffering to two or three players switching to you at once. I can CC 1 or 2 long enough to really get the 3rd one hurting, but I've never been able to just eat it and buy time for a bubble or anything. I always have to escape until my team mates get their attention. Meanwhile, my dots are the only things doing damage.

 

Your last two paragraphs I really agree with. It would be nice to see other classes get buffed, but that would require a lot more work and time for now than simply increasing the shield debuff as a kind of "hot fix".

 

Again, thanks for pointing out the wrong info in my post!

[Sirolos]

 

 

True and untrue at the same time. While what you say about bubble and NS are correct, a geared sage legitly healing can still put up crazy numbers (I've seen 600k), so you can't always assume a Sage is cheat-healing to get higher numbers.

 

I have seen a healing Sage on my Server get 1million in healing.

 

I think the only reason he even got that was because of the fact he bubbled multiple people every chance he got.

 

Absorption counts toward healing.

 

This should not be the case, its the leading offender of why people think a sorc is good at healing AND damage..and excel at Both at the same time...this isnt the case.

 

 

There's the third option, buff up the other classes. BW said throughout beta, that the Sage/Sorcs had an amazingly well done set of talent trees and that they were trying to bring other classes up to that level. We were the model for what they wanted other classes to be like. Since then they've done that, most notably with the Sentinel/Marauder who before had no survivability, but now have some of the best cooldowns in the game and 3 viable and interesting talent trees.

 

I will admit, I think part of what irks people about the Sage/Sorc is the relative ease with which someone can step into the class. I'm not against making it a bit more complex to achieve the same numbers, but honestly I think their output all around is mostly where it should be (especially with the Salvation nerf). I do think other classes need a bit more utility, but not at the cost of more complexity.

 

They have been doing well so far..Even with the recent patch for Operatives, what the ops lost in burst they more than compensated them with the ability to control.

 

This makes me wonder if bioware even takes the whining post seriously.

[Zaodon]

(I will just use "Sage", rather than sage/sorc, for simplicity)

 

Sages really only have a few damage abilities:

- casted spells (2-3 sec cast) or DoTs

- instant spells (DoT, slow, FiB)

- channeled spells (pebbles)

 

NONE of those, repeat NONE, do much damage.

- DoTs take a while to tick and deal their damage, and can be cleansed/healed thru.

- casted and channeled spells are slow and can be interrupted/LOSd

 

If you compare Sage DPS to other classes, you'll see that its far lower damage PER attack, even though its high OVERALL damage over TIME. In a direct 1v1 fight (I mention 1v1 only for the purpose of demonstration), every single other class (other than a pure healer) can out-DPS a Sage. DPS stands for Damage Per Second. If a Sage had no mitigation, we'd get killed immediately in every single fight, no matter what we did, since our DPS is so low and slow.

 

Bubble, stun, force lift, slow, interrupt, and base-class heals are our survival tools which are designed to ALLOW our "low+slow" DPS time to take effect and give us a chance to win a fight. Without them, we would just be killed immediately.

 

There really is no problem with Sages. They need every skill they have in PvP. Nerf damage or nerf survivability, and the class would collapse.

 

That said, there is nothing overpowered about a class which plays well and is survivable. I don't kill you by "surviving", I kill you by reducing your health to 0. It takes me a WHILE to do that. Sages are no different than any other ranged class when it comes to tactics. If you know how to fight a ranged class, you know how to fight a sage.

 

As a sage, I die constantly in PvP, not because I'm bad, but because even our great survivability skills have cooldowns and limitations. I can't just go 1v2ing everyone, not gonna happen. If someone is really weak/low health, yeah, maybe I could win a 1v2 if the 2nd person isn't paying attention. Maybe. 1v1s are a toss up with good players, and team vs team, we die just as much as everyone else, but people have selective memory when it comes to our deaths.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Zaodon

[cupofwater]

Getting 600k damage in no way helps your team actually "WIN".

 

Sorcs able to get over 300k damage is in direct relationship between the stupidity of the other team. The damage is also inflated because the amount of damage is spread out between the whole team because of AoE's

 

If 5 people group up and stay with 1 meter of each other, of course a sorc not getting focused is going to do insane damage with Chain Lightning and Death Field. If no one targets a sorc and allows him to spam his AoEs in a grouped up opposing force obviously he is going to do insane amounts of damage.

 

PRO-TIP: Spread out and don't zerg players 1 at a time with 4-5 players.

 

I would take a guarding tank, or healer over a dps able to get 400k+ damage any day.

 

I don't know why I even bother posting, everyone on forums just cries about every class.

 

I have seen nerf threads on every class now.

[Rheeling]

I have seen a healing Sage on my Server get 1million in healing.

 

I think the only reason he even got that was because of the fact he bubbled multiple people every chance he got.

 

Absorption counts toward healing.

 

This should not be the case, its the leading offender of why people think a sorc is good at healing AND damage..and excel at Both at the same time...this isnt the case.

 

 

 

They have been doing well so far..Even with the recent patch for Operatives, what the ops lost in burst they more than compensated them with the ability to control.

 

This makes me wonder if bioware even takes the whining post seriously.

 

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, healing specced Sages/Sorcs can put up crazy healing numbers, partially thanks to the shield counting toward healing as you mentioned. But just to clarify, in the original post, I was talking about Damage specced players putting up high healing numbers, along with their damage. I'll very consistently do 200k+ damage and roughly 75k healing (sub-50), but that's about the limit for healing if I'm going to keep my damage up.

 

And I do agree that the changes, as far as class changes go, have been pretty successful.

 

Zaodon: Really enjoyed your post. I'm also more along the lines of thinking Sages/Sorcs are good where they're at. Though I do try to keep as open of a mind as possible when people make legitimate arguments.

[Sirolos]

(I will just use "Sage", rather than sage/sorc, for simplicity)

 

Sages really only have a few damage abilities:

- casted spells (2-3 sec cast) or DoTs

- instant spells (DoT, slow, FiB)

- channeled spells (pebbles)

 

NONE of those, repeat NONE, do much damage.

- DoTs take a while to tick and deal their damage, and can be cleansed/healed thru.

- casted and channeled spells are slow and can be interrupted/LOSd

 

If you compare Sage DPS to other classes, you'll see that its far lower damage PER attack, even though its high OVERALL damage over TIME. In a direct 1v1 fight (I mention 1v1 only for the purpose of demonstration), every single other class (other than a pure healer) can out-DPS a Sage. DPS stands for Damage Per Second. If a Sage had no mitigation, we'd get killed immediately in every single fight, no matter what we did, since our DPS is so low and slow.

 

Bubble, stun, force lift, slow, interrupt, and base-class heals are our survival tools which are designed to ALLOW our "low+slow" DPS time to take effect and give us a chance to win a fight. Without them, we would just be killed immediately.

 

There really is no problem with Sages. They need every skill they have in PvP. Nerf damage or nerf survivability, and the class would collapse.

 

That said, there is nothing overpowered about a class which plays well and is survivable. I don't kill you by "surviving", I kill you by reducing your health to 0. It takes me a WHILE to do that. Sages are no different than any other ranged class when it comes to tactics. If you know how to fight a ranged class, you know how to fight a sage.

 

As a sage, I die constantly in PvP, not because I'm bad, but because even our great survivability skills have cooldowns and limitations. I can't just go 1v2ing everyone, not gonna happen. If someone is really weak/low health, yeah, maybe I could win a 1v2 if the 2nd person isn't paying attention. Maybe. 1v1s are a toss up with good players, and team vs team, we die just as much as everyone else, but people have selective memory when it comes to our deaths.

 

Good post.

 

And it all comes down to how people react to a changing battle ground.

 

On my sage I lost count of how many times people LET me sit on a ledge or in the back, and free cast.

Free Cast- Allowing a caster class to cast skills uninterrupted and untouched.

I have done this on my Merc also. People LET me sit in the back, and free cast.

 

My next question is, who is at fault?

This is why I dont see a reason why any ranged classes will get nerfed.

 

It takes one good Operative to kill a sorc or sage and they can do so now better than ever.

[Aowar]

Just remember when you say sorc/sage. There are different types of sorc/sage. A full spec healing sorc/sage for instance does not need a nerf. A hybrid spec on the other hand probably does. They have too much utility/healing.

[Cruxe]

Sages/Sorcs are focus fired more than any other class

 

In my experience, this is not true. I get left alone far more often than I get focused.

[Rheeling]

Getting 600k damage in no way helps your team actually "WIN".

 

Sorcs able to get over 300k damage is in direct relationship between the stupidity of the other team. The damage is also inflated because the amount of damage is spread out between the whole team because of AoE's

 

If 5 people group up and stay with 1 meter of each other, of course a sorc not getting focused is going to do insane damage with Chain Lightning and Death Field. If no one targets a sorc and allows him to spam his AoEs in a grouped up opposing force obviously he is going to do insane amounts of damage.

 

I wasn't really talking about pressuring a Sage so he can't just spam aoe. Yes, it racks up a lot of damage, but I was talking more single-target Damage. If I'm allowed to just focus one target without worrying about saving my skin, that target will melt faster than they realize. By the time Mind Crush/Crushing Darkness wears off, the target could be at 50% health. And that's a short dot.

 

Didn't intend for this to be a nerf thread, or a defense thread. I'm sorry if you took it either way.

[Rheeling]

Just remember when you say sorc/sage. There are different types of sorc/sage. A full spec healing sorc/sage for instance does not need a nerf. A hybrid spec on the other hand probably does. They have too much utility/healing.

 

The spec combinations are one thing that I think are causing people to lose it. When there are at least 3-4 of these classes in one warzone, you have the potential to see nearly every single viable build. Which can lead to people thinking every single Sorc/Sage can do what they have seen each individual one with a different spec do.

[Evuke]

All they have to do to fix sorcs is move bubble up to the top of the healer tree, i've no issue with healers having a ridiculously op bubble, just dps'ers.

[Sirolos]

Just remember when you say sorc/sage. There are different types of sorc/sage. A full spec healing sorc/sage for instance does not need a nerf. A hybrid spec on the other hand probably does. They have too much utility/healing.

 

This is what we are talking about.

 

The only reason you see high damage numbers is because of AoE's.

 

Any class with AoE's if left alone and if the enemy group does nothing but zerg WILL get the top damage score.

 

I have been able to do this on both my pyro spec and hybrid.

 

A Hybrid spec Sage IS NOT doing a lot of damage to one player.

He/she is NOT doing the burst or sustained damage an assassin, operative, or maurader is capable of.

 

And as was mentioned..the BUBBLE is adding 3k healing every 15 seconds (yes its 15 seconds with pvp gear). On top of the down time when the sage heals themselves.

" What down time?"

The only time a hybrid sage or sorc is healing themselves is out of combat, unfocused by the other team.

Operatives and Mercenaries can do the same thing

 

Difference is, they dont have a bubble giving them healing scores.

[dollarfiveo]

lot of strange information in this thread.

 

increasing the debuff timer of shield to 45 seconds would kill the sorc class. there isn't really anything else to say about that. aside from sprint and a stun on 50 second cd, all other defensive cds rely on people not breaking your roots/whirlwind. the sorc sprint is REALLY easy to root.

 

honestly the main issue with sorcs is that their really good talents are lower in the trees than other classes

 

on a related note there's no way anyone could look at the damage a marauder does to a sorc and think that's balanced

Edited February 1, 2012 by dollarfiveo

[VertisReaper]

tbh the only change I would like to see is to have their knockback fill the resolve bar 50%, so you cant be knocked back 3x in a row. i play a guardian. Edited February 1, 2012 by VertisReaper

[Sirolos]

All they have to do to fix sorcs is move bubble up to the top of the healer tree, i've no issue with healers having a ridiculously op bubble, just dps'ers.

 

Then allow them to were something besides light armor if they are not healing, or buff the damage to the level of a sniper or merc.

 

Light armor with DoT and AoE damage with no other utility may as well be an NPC.

 

Now if they move the 20% extra bubble strength talent into the healing tree..that would be awesome..because I would agree thats where that talent should be.

 

but then you would still have to compensate for the TK/Lighting Tree having TERRIBLE dps

[Sirolos]

tbh the only change I would like to see is to have their knockback fill the resolve bar 50%, so you cant be knocked back 3x in a row. i play a guardian.

 

This should be with ALL knockbacks

[Rheeling]

lot of strange information in this thread.

 

increasing the debuff timer of shield to 45 seconds would kill the sorc class. there isn't really anything else to say about that. aside from sprint and a stun on 50 second cd, all other defensive cds rely on people not breaking your roots/whirlwind. the sorc sprint is REALLY easy to root.

 

honestly the main issue with sorcs is that their really good talents are lower in the trees than other classes

 

45 seconds was just a random number I threw out there. I know it would really hurt the class if the debuff was too long, but it seems as though it's just on the side of too short at the moment. It's almost too easy to LoS/kite people until it's back up again.

 

And the bubble being a part of the healing tree is a really good idea. I could support that.

[Muldias]

This is most likely going to be a fairly lengthy post, for which I apologize. However, I'm hoping to start a real, rational, and logical discussion on what could be changed about the Sage/Sorcerer advanced class to make the masses happy. I will try to play devil's advocate for both arguments.

 

Thread Rules: This is not a "Sorcs need a nerf!" or "Sages are completely fine" thread. If you post, try to keep it as a constructive, thought out way to change the class to where it wouldn't be a waste of space, yet wouldn't be the "Superman" of all classes.

 

Debating an issue is fine, just please try to keep all debates on topic, rational, abuse free, and don't post false "data".

 

My personal background/experience with the class: I have leveled a Sage to 42. I went the Balance/Madness route all the way to the top. I leveled just through PvP, so I have a very good understanding of the class and how to play that spec. While that may not be the level 50 experience I would like, it's quite a bit. I have played against MANY level 50's, however, on my 50 Vanguard main, so I do still understand what they're like top level.

 

Those who know the Talent Trees well can skip over this next part, and continue reading at the next colored segment.

 

Now, before we can really get into a detailed discussion on this topic, people have to understand the build options available for the class. While they only have 2 "types" of builds (Healing and Damage), there are a number of very interesting viable builds.

 

First, the full Balance/Madness tree. My specialty. This build will allow for a total of 3 dots available. Two are instant, and one of the instant casts has a 2 second root attached to it. This build is very effective for kiting and 1v1 situations. The issue for opponents with this build will be the "surprise" element. Most opponents don't realize I'm attacking them in this spec until I have all 3 dots on them, and have started casting another attack. You'll be at a hefty health deficit when the fight "starts" for you.

 

The Telekenetics/Lightning tree puts you in more of a "turret" mode. You'll get nice procs off of main abilities, and you're granted a wonderful casted aoe. The shield boost, along with the stun on break, is in this tree as well. Offering even more CC.

 

As far as the healing spec goes, its strength is pretty straight forward. Faster heal times, procs for more efficient heals, and an aoe heal at the top of the tree.

 

People have also been combining these trees to hybrids, which can offer them more CC at the expense of damage, or slightly faster heals without much penalty. Just understand that a Sage/Sorc who has tons of CC through talenting won't be able to put out the same numbers as other builds. The last understanding we need to come to, is that a Damage specced Sage/Sorc can't heal quite as well as people have been claiming. The ability to sacrifice health for force allows them to spam heal themselves, usually in an effort to gain medals. The damage their bubble absorbs goes into healing stats as well.

 

Talent Tree explenations are finished, those who skipped can continue reading here.

 

So, Sages/Sorcs are consistently topping damage charts. That's the biggest issue I've seen on the forums. But, they're not getting very large crits. What does this mean? They're being allowed to free cast too much in the back of the pack, and (the good ones) aren't putting themselves in vulnerable positions to people other than their target.

 

Try attacking a Sage/Sorc next time you're not in a health deficit. You'll notice that they only toss up a couple dots, then go to defense mode. A targeted Sage/Sorc's damage output is severely diminished because they know they're squishy. Pressuring the ones you see will practically eliminate them from the game (barring complete 1v1's, those can be difficult). Allowing them to free-cast is going to wreck your team.

 

But for now, let's say they really are just doing too much damage, and have too much utility (CC and escape methods) to justify it. We have 2 options. Tone down their damage output, or reduce their defenses. The most viable thing I've been able to think of which might solve a decent chunk of problems would be this:

 

Increase the debuff timer on the Shield. I know, seems small right? But the fact that it can be up for a solid 20-25% of most encounters has been causing problems for people. They're having their bread and butter abilities just canceled, and then they don't really have anything to follow up with. With an increased debuff time (let's say 45 seconds), the Sage/Sorc can't just shield and heal after one or two LoS's. Their 1v1 utility will be a bit compromised, as I personally think it's a bit strong right now anyway. So a lone Sage/Sorc will now be more targetable, and will most likely retreat immediately if picked out.

 

The end!

 

I'm looking forward to any other feedback you might have to provide. If you haven't played a Sage/Sorc to a significant level, then please try not to make wild claims unless you can actually back them up, even if that just means you can explain it by looking at the skill tree. And if you do play one, please try to stay open minded to your class being altered.

 

If I am misinformed anywhere in this post, please let me know and I will try to make changes as necessary.

 

Let's keep this respectful, constructive, and creative. Neither allowing a class that might be too strong to go unchanged, or nerfing it into oblivion will help the balance of this game. Thank you for reading, and I apologize for the length.

 

 

Didn't read all posts below yours so I apologize if this has already been said, but here are my suggestions.

 

The sorcerer bubble seems okay, however, I do not think that any DPS or Hybrid spec should have it on a 20s reuse. That it should be 40/45s unless talented high up in the corruption tree where it would go to its current form of 17/20s.

 

Sprint should be on a 60s cooldown, 45 talented in the DPS tree.

 

Grapple should be in the shared tree, high up.

 

Force lightning should either A) affect the resolve bar in some fashion or B) have the snare removed unless talented in a DPS tree.

 

I personally think that would tone down the insane utility and bring the class in line with others. I don't think their damage is out of hand, but when you couple it with the insane survivability they have in the hands of a skilled player they are a little overboard.

[bahgaggaga]

My friend and I both said the same thing about Sorcs. Together we have played every class and the inquisitor class just has too much utility. Other classes have a trick to beating them but a good Sorc never dies unless 3v1'ed. You need to bring the bubble down a bit and it will be fine. Nothing crazy just increase the debuff timer or reduce the absorption.

 

I am also interested in bring up the utility of the other classes. Either way, it needs a tweek.

[BacklashEH]

The amount of time to self apply force armor should be increased, as someone else said there should be points in the top of the heal tree that brings it back down. It's miserable playing a healer without good survivability. But as a dps you can get off 3 or more in an elongated fight. To me the problem is having it up when you get into the fight and having it ready to reapply, if you pretty much had to apply it as the fight was about to start it would be fine.

 

The other change I'd make is I'd make tk throw cost more force when it's used multiple times in a row. It's pretty much a free cast by the time the channeling is done. I honestly think the ability itself is fine, allot of players don't realize that the reason their health is melting is because they have dots on them. But spamming the one ability over and over again should have some sort of penalty.

 

Those are the only changes I'd make, the class is extremely fun and pretty popular, it's also an out in the open class with light armor so there are a variety of ways it can be countered.

[Rheeling]

Didn't read all posts below yours so I apologize if this has already been said, but here are my suggestions.

 

The sorcerer bubble seems okay, however, I do not think that any DPS or Hybrid spec should have it on a 20s reuse. That it should be 40/45s unless talented high up in the corruption tree where it would go to its current form of 17/20s.

 

Sprint should be on a 60s cooldown, 45 talented in the DPS tree.

 

Grapple should be in the shared tree, high up.

 

Force lightning should either A) affect the resolve bar in some fashion or B) have the snare removed unless talented in a DPS tree.

 

I personally think that would tone down the insane utility and bring the class in line with others. I don't think their damage is out of hand, but when you couple it with the insane survivability they have in the hands of a skilled player they are a little overboard.

 

The snare attatched to Force Lightning/Tele Throw should be talented, I agree. Probably only a 1 point talent, 2 at most, but still shouldn't be free from the get go. Especially since it can be talented to have no CD.

[Harrasment]

I honestly think that the 90% of the rage posts about sorc/sages come after warzones where was like 5+ sorc/sages in the opposite team. I admit that i raged too sometimes when i have done some wz's like that.

 

Im a shadow and the story was like...

- target the sorc at lower hp

- KD, 2x clarvoyant

- he wake up, than bubble

- he + others sorc start lightning spam on me

- after that im cooked and ready for eat

 

[repeat the sequence for 15 min]

 

sarcasm apart i think the class is well balanced in 1 vs 1 ( is very rare that a sorc survive to my burst even if im undergeared in confront to him ); in the other hands lot of Sorcs/sages that make dps in a wz can throw out lot of dps/cc/heal on the opposite team, specially if is half compsed by melee class.

The only problem is that all the whines that has been made on sorcs + the "OP" tag spammed near theyr name have toke em to be the most popular class in the game. I honestly think if no one talked bout em like i see here in this forum for sure there will be less sorcs and more funnyest wz's =)

 

Sry for the long text and for erratic grammar but english is not my 1st language ^^

Edited February 1, 2012 by Harrasment

[XenonParsec]

This is most likely going to be a fairly lengthy post, for which I apologize. However, I'm hoping to start a real, rational, and logical discussion on what could be changed about the Sage/Sorcerer advanced class to make the masses happy.

 

That's why your "real discussion" fails. The point of game design is to provide balanced archtypes, not cave into the masses just because, frankly, most of you suck at PvP.

 

That's just how it is. People want EZ mode, and because the pharmaceuticals and fast food have rotted most people's brains into mush, they lack the introspective critical thought needed to analyze and come up with counters. So, they pander to the developers citing incorrect facts and abilities they've never used.

 

If people still can't figure out how to kill cloth-wearing casters in your elite expertise gear, you simply need pvp lessons.