Most of you just dont get it...

[lordniah]

So pretend that gear was a non-factor in PVP. Every new level 50 is the same as all other level 50s in PVP.

 

How could you make that work with raiding? If you do nothing raiders a year from now will crush you like bugs with their massive gear advantage and you are stuck back in square 1.

 

You now need to do PVE for your PVP gear instead of PVP to be competitive.

 

Or Bioware has to implement some cheese to protect you from raiders whenever you come across them in any PVP scenario (world pvp, illum, warzones) so you don't get your face stomped. A really great way to piss off the raiders would be to make their gear so it has some artificial disadvantage in PVP or just has no progression/scaling in the first place.

 

One of the ways this game does not compare to FPS and RTS games is that you don't have players progressing and competing in PVE and PVP at the same time. Anything you do in the campaign in CoD is separate from what you do online and vice versa. MMOs that have both don't work this way nor should they.

 

MMOs have been through all this, nothing new is being argued in this thread. Bioware modeled what works in other games they just did the bag system very poorly. This may have been intentional so that every 50 didn't have Battlemaster gear the first month the game was out but could have been done better.

 

You do realize the gear is just a collection of data that can be changed on the fly by the computer? If someone comes into a warzone with elite pve gear, the program can just lower the effectivness of their gear to match others in the warzone. Likewise, people with lower level gear get it bolstered. Amazing, no?

[Sczisnad]

If gear was not a factor then it would be all about skill. However due to the fact that it is really easy to be "proficient" or slightly less, skill does not seem to have a big enough impact by its self. If a noob fought a vet with the same gear, the vet would win of course. But what if 2 noobs encountered a skilled vet in world pvp? The noobs would easily overcome the skilled vet, and that is not a good thing.

 

Would you want to play a game where a rank 100 valor player would run in fear from 2 new 50s in world pvp due to the fact that if both of the new 50s had a pulse they would win?

[alanisUDL]

Define good.

 

Vanilla Wow, DaoC, Shadowbane, UO, early Darkfall. Games you logged in to play and enjjoy, as opposed to having a checklist of things to do in game for that day to cross off.

 

You bother with gear progression because it provides a reward to players that are dedicated to the system and devote time to it. Because it keeps people playing. Because no matter how much you "like" to PvP, repeating something day after day with no hope of it changing or of it granting you something becomes repetitive and dull. At least this way, when it becomes repetitive and dull, which is inevitable whether you love it or not, you still have something else to play for.

 

You can provide rewards that don't provide gear progression. And it turns more people off than you keep with the carrot. If people only play a game in order to acquire more gear, this is a sign of a poorly designed game, which will inevitably fail.

 

Most people ARE having fun for the entirety of the game, because most people are actually playing it, enjoying and thriving in the system, while you sit here "progressing" your ability to annoy people and not provide anything but your personal feelings on the matter. You are not solving the issue by making wild, baseless claims, and trying to speak for everyone when you really are part of a vocal minority.

 

I think most people in this thread are actually in agreement with the points that I and others have made-- I don't think we are in the minority, and I know what casual games outnumber grinders.

 

Take away PvP gear, and now raiders dominate PvPers with their raiding gear, and you've done nothing but completely wreck the PvP system.

 

Well that is another can of worms. In a perfect game, you wouldn't need to have gear progression for PvE to happen either, but as we know SWTOR is far from a perfect game.

 

This game was destined for gear progression because it has taken pretty much everything else from WoW. They could have implimented a much much lower progression curve in the gear and it would have been more friendly system.

[Celebrus]

Vanilla Wow, DaoC, Shadowbane, UO, early Darkfall. Games you logged in to play and enjjoy, as opposed to having a checklist of things to do in game for that day to cross off.

 

Vanilla WoW had no structured PvP at all, within months people were clamoring for it, a year after it released they had battlegrounds, an honor system, and pvp rewards. People wanted it, they provided it, much like Bioware is doing with SWToR.

 

It's becoming increasingly clear that this debate isn't even about the gear, especially with people so open to the idea of separating Qs by valor ranking, it's about being unable to cope with being beaten by better players with better gear due to a false sense of PvP revolving around "skill".

 

PvP is every bit as much about leveling, progressing, and gearing, as PvE has ALWAYS been in MMO games. Developers are just finally catching up to rewarding PvPers in the same way they reward raiders. It's not going anywhere.

[Kolbenito]

You do realize the gear is just a collection of data that can be changed on the fly by the computer? If someone comes into a warzone with elite pve gear, the program can just lower the effectivness of their gear to match others in the warzone. Likewise, people with lower level gear get it bolstered. Amazing, no?

 

In Warzones.

 

First of all it shouldn't be a shock that the Hero engine isn't very good. How would you do this in Illum or world PVP or even duels?

 

The engine would need a completely different ruleset for any PVP that says "Player X engaged in combat with Player Z ... boost/downgrade stats to 15K HP, 500 Expertise, etc."

 

The ways you could exploit this would be almost unlimited. Want to kill a player? Train a mob on them then attack, which does the engine pick the champion mob or the noob in greens? You could potentially downscale ENTIRE RAIDS doing a world boss on a PVP server by simply shooting a rank 1 spell at someone and wipe them. Even if the boost is the other way you could exploit this to kill things in a trivial way by simply having a buddy log on an alt and shoot a healer with a weak spell thus boosting a raid by a significant amount.

 

All this has been discussed for YEARS in MMOs and there is a reason nobody, not WoW or anyone else has implemented something like this.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Kolbenito

[alanisUDL]

Vanilla WoW had no structured PvP at all, within months people were clamoring for it, a year after it released they had battlegrounds, an honor system, and pvp rewards. People wanted it, they provided it, much like Bioware is doing with SWToR.

 

Prior to battlegrounds, people had amazing fun in vanilla Wow. There were very few elite raiding guilds at first and gear wasn't a huge factor. There were plenty of big fights in one of those newbie zones---tauren mill? The game was fun. There was PvP gear when they introduced the battlegrounds, but it was not until raiding became more popular did they really push pvp gear.

 

It's becoming increasingly clear that this debate isn't even about the gear, especially with people so open to the idea of separating Qs by valor ranking, it's about being unable to cope with being beaten by better players with better gear due to a false sense of PvP revolving around "skill".

 

This is a common complaint, and shows a side of elitism that you have. I've already given an argument against gear progression, but from the opposite side that you are suggesting...the geared side. On my heal sorc, I have enough expertise that this game is a #@$#@ faceroll vs players that don't match my gear. I run into players every day that would give me a fun challenge, who execute their toons remarkably well, but utilimately get steamrolled because of gear. THIS IS NOT FUN FOR EITHER PERSON.

 

It is not only about the person that is new, and is frustrated about outplayed a toon and losing. It is also ultimately not fun for many (not all, obviously) players that destroy players that have no chance. It is not challenging, it is not fun, and it is not something that keeps people wanting to play. So please, take your elitist "anyone complaining must be a nub and bad and is mad" attitude out of here. If you really cared about skill-based PvP, you wouldn't be arguing against those that support it.

Edited February 1, 2012 by alanisUDL

[Malice_Nihilim]

What if SWTOR had a dozen PVP maps similar to popular shooters. The only things you get from it are credits, and XP for non-50s.

 

No valor rank, no items to get, no stat tracking, no titles, nada. Doing unrated Warzones for the sake of doing them only.

 

How long do you really think the majority of people who primarily PVP would stick with that?

 

Well the debate is gear progression, not progression in general.

 

Improving slightly or gaining non-combat rewards, anything from rankings to unusual gear skins, etc. A lot of things can be given to players to make them interested that doesn't require that they earn gear of ultimate superiority.

[RamzaBehoulve]

The MAJORITY of MMO's playerbase want gear progression. They want to gain str through gear, and then impose their str on the less geared / less skilled. It is an MMO, where YOU become the HERO at the expense of others.........

 

Competitive gaming exists at the end of the gear progression, everything prior to the END of the content is not competitive, its the grind.....

 

All the crying for equal stats ALREADY exists.......its called full battlemaster vs full battlemaster.

 

PvE players, sure. PvP players? Nope.

[Malice_Nihilim]

Alot of people like the OP like to wave off examples like FPS and RTS because the concept shoots thier epeen down.

 

The game play is different, but the example shows the mentality of many gamers and are willing to play a pvp game for no other reason than fun and enjoyment. As well as bragging rights.

 

How does that mentality on two different game types not translate across to mmos?

 

FPS that have progression are not the same as mmo progression, as the guns are not necessarily improvement. If there is any improvement, it is so small that by no means does it make the person unkillable of undefeatable as it does in mmos.

 

The best part is....FPS's make a lot more money then MMO's, MMO's are a niche market. Compare BF3's first week sales vs SWTOR, the comparison is laughable. Maybe FPS's have it right? The MAJORITY thinks so

[xxdragonragexx]

The best part is....FPS's make a lot more money then MMO's, MMO's are a niche market. Compare BF3's first week sales vs SWTOR, the comparison is laughable. Maybe FPS's have it right? The MAJORITY thinks so

 

FPS don't make more money than MMO. WoW currently has around 4.5 million subs. Multiply that by 15 every month. Then multiply that with $60 every expansion. Then new players will have to spend $100.00 just to get the whole game.

Edited February 1, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[Starbuckx]

Problem is there is nothing for people to fight for after getting full gear.

Fight for fun? Sure if there was fun to be had the same old three **** warzones.

 

Get the new content in fast guys, you lost yourself a lot of time giving everyone free valor.

Maybe you bought yourself some time with the ****** bag loot and bm commendation system. Well done for that crap.

 

People who get a hard on for gear and want a long grind to get it are the people who have nothing in life to do apart from play games 24/7 so they can get an advantage over the rest. Probably because its the only way they can win....

Bit of a generalisation but I'm sure its mostly true.

 

The thing is...this game has gear in it, you chose to play it...consider yourself lucky there are only a few tiers.....for gods sake I hope there aren't more tiers down the line or I may stop playing sooner rather than later.

 

Other games coming out soon....will be better than this one.

[Kolbenito]

Well the debate is gear progression, not progression in general.

 

Improving slightly or gaining non-combat rewards, anything from rankings to unusual gear skins, etc. A lot of things can be given to players to make them interested that doesn't require that they earn gear of ultimate superiority.

 

If end game were strictly about PVP, yes. You could give players really amazing looking armor, titles, mounts, all sorts of things that would give a lot of incentive to PVP and do well that don't provide an advantage.

 

The game has PVE and you can't really do that as easily there without trivializing content or having a very flat scale to difficulty.

 

Mix the two and that's where the problems would start. A lot of players do both, I am one of them.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Kolbenito

[Kolbenito]

FPS don't make more money than MMO. WoW currently has around 4.5 million subs. Multiply that by 15 every month. Then multiply that with $60 every expansion. Then new players will have to spend $100.00 just to get the whole game.

 

It is actually 10 million for wow. That's after losing about 1.8 million during Cataclysm.

[xxdragonragexx]

People don't get it.

 

FUN DOESN'T EQUAL MONEY.

I played fps games, league of legends, rts and etc. I got bored with them after 1 month.

GRIND EQUALS MONEY!!!

 

People don't understand that if you take away gear progression in the pvp game, swtor will lose a lot of subs.

Edited February 1, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[Tic-]

I get it...

 

i just find it pretty dull when thats all pvp is about. Yay i got another piece of gear...

 

Games like DAOC/Shadowbane/UO gave you a reason to fight for your faction/guild/whatever. Its a shame its been reduced to just fight for the next set of bracers..

[Seriasx]

The MAJORITY of MMO's playerbase want gear progression. They want to gain str through gear, and then impose their str on the less geared / less skilled. It is an MMO, where YOU become the HERO at the expense of others.........

 

Competitive gaming exists at the end of the gear progression, everything prior to the END of the content is not competitive, its the grind.....

 

All the crying for equal stats ALREADY exists.......its called full battlemaster vs full battlemaster.

 

 

I'd be alot more willing to grind gear against geared 50s if those geared 50s actually had to grind theirs in the first place.

[Anthiel]

I have yet to see any statistics that back up your claim.

 

I had a HUGE thread in the Beta PVP forums with a poll about how effective people wanted gear to be in PVP. It was overwhelmingly in favor of gear having as little impact on PVP as possible.

 

PVEers want gear progression.

 

Real PVPers don't need it, at least not to the level of gearflation stupidity that it gets taken in some games that think they are making good PVP.

 

the design of every mmorgp since their conception is the stats but go ahead with your stats that apparently dosent extend any farther than the beta poll you put in a unnamed game with your unknown credentials. mmorpg= multi play rpg and there is no such thing as a rpg withthout gear progression a pvp rpg with no gear progression is guess what guys a fps

[Chaede]

FPS don't make more money than MMO. WoW currently has around 4.5 million subs. Multiply that by 15 every month. Then multiply that with $60 every expansion. Then new players will have to spend $100.00 just to get the whole game.

 

You're ultimately wrong. If you want to include subs as part of the figure you need to add in all the xbox live etc subs for people that use it to play FPS. BF3 is the highest grocing entertainment media of all time. Its sales beat any other game, movie, song etc. It has made far more money since being released than WoW has or did in the same time frame.

 

Yes WoW has made a lot of money but has a lot more ongoing costs than BF3. You also can't compare an income of 7 years over a few months sales.

[Bhorzo]

It is actually 10 million for wow. That's after losing about 1.8 million during Cataclysm.

 

Well only 4.5 million "subscribers" pay a monthly fee. Some wouldn't call the other 4-5 million subscribers at all, since they're not actually paying a sub fee.

[CapuchinSeven]

Only the un-skilled rely on their gear crutch. When all things are equal skill shines. This is above and beyond the main reason people with no life will rush to endgame for the best gear. Cause they suck and need that edge. It's sad cause these are the same cat's that are going to QQ big salty nub tears in GW2 right before they rage quit.

 

Heh, love this post.

[Jebi]

You're ultimately wrong. If you want to include subs as part of the figure you need to add in all the xbox live etc subs for people that use it to play FPS. BF3 is the highest grocing entertainment media of all time. Its sales beat any other game, movie, song etc. It has made far more money since being released than WoW has or did in the same time frame.

 

Yes WoW has made a lot of money but has a lot more ongoing costs than BF3. You also can't compare an income of 7 years over a few months sales.

 

So many large claims without actual proof. Got any supporting evidence there buddy?

 

Also, Call of Duty says hi.

 

"Well, EA (BF3) has successfully eroded Activision’s (COD) market share. Though Activision has sold many, many more games. EA has eroded Activision’s 90 per cent share of the market and claimed a bigger pie. Activision has blown EA out of the water."

 

And it's a prime example of how a sub bar product designed to be noob friendly, combined with good marketing can be hugely successful.

 

Kinda like all apple products.

 

Also, grind heavy, gear focused, carebear MMO's may be 'popular', but targeting this market is also popular - infact, it's saturated with games. Maybe it would make more business sense to try something different, and attract a new market? Just look at all the failed MMO's recently that all went for the 'most popular market' and failed miserably.

 

Peoples tastes also change. Maybe it's time to stop cloning WOW, and take the MMO training wheels off? Hell... who know's, if MMO's actually innovated and tried something new... they may find there's an even bigger market available to them.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Jebi

[Chaede]

I don't think massively inflated gear progression is needed. Sure small increments but not enough to overcome skill. If you are using gear as a crutch you are bad. If you think you should have to grind to get the gear to be on a level playing field then you are saying that because you have more time for a time sink than you deserve to have a gear crutch and again are bad.

 

I much prefer pvp based around skill and teamwork than gear. If you are pvping or gaming to get artifical gear rewards so you can stomp those that don't to inflate your ego... particularly because you can't rely on skill to do it... well that is just a little pathetic.

 

What are people worried about if there is a much more level playing field in pvp? Are people that require massive gear inflation and prgression so they can feel like they are doing well worried that if it isn't there they will be beaten due to lack of skill?

 

Seriously, the biggest online pvp game (yes it beats WoW with active players and active accounts) is League of Legends. Yes its a slightly different genre being a MOBA but the key principles apply, once you get to level 30 the only thing to buy are runes and it doesn't take long to get the ones you need. In that game it is all about skill, teamwork and communication which is exactly what pvp should be about. Needing gear to roflstomp those that don't have it yet is a very sad way to get a sense of accomplishment and self worth.

 

How about rather than gear progression they work more on a rating progression like they do in games like League of Legends. You can still be elitist if you need to be but at least in that case it would be based on skill rather than gear.

[RamzaBehoulve]

I get it, i get it! Wait, wait.. nooo.. I don't

[Kolbenito]

Well only 4.5 million "subscribers" pay a monthly fee. Some wouldn't call the other 4-5 million subscribers at all, since they're not actually paying a sub fee.

 

What?

 

No that is active subscriptions. This is the only thing that Blizzard reports on in their conference call and is a well known number. They don't talk about people doing trial accounts of the 1-20 free to play which are both tiny in comparison.

 

http://investor.activision.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=575495

http://www.activisionblizzard.com/corp/index.html

Edited February 1, 2012 by Kolbenito

[Chaede]

Well only 4.5 million "subscribers" pay a monthly fee. Some wouldn't call the other 4-5 million subscribers at all, since they're not actually paying a sub fee.

 

Actually, last figures I saw on MMO Champ were they were down to 6 million active accounts. They might have 9 - 10 million accounts but only 6 million of them logged in over the month. They are bleeding players at the moment, still a very successful MMO but lack of real innovation and repetition of the same world/graphic style etc is taking its toll.