Darkness Assassins whats your new build with the raze change???

[Skitlz]

Im up in the air now. Not sure if 31/0/10 will be worth it or maybe 23/2/16 (still getting the thrash crit dmg bonus since it is the main melee move we use. Any ideas?

[Sabbathius]

With Wither triggering Harnessed Shadows? Definitely 31 into Darkness. Wither in PvP isn't actually half-bad.

 

Dump it on a group of people, cut their damage 5% and movement 30% for 15 seconds. That's actually pretty godly, just by itself. Yeah, it may not help YOU specifically, or give you more kills, but as a force multiplier it is rather significant. Throw an AoE taunt in there, and you've just single-handedly wrecked their day, -35% damage. Toss an AoE Discharge in there for -5% accuracy, and you just add insult to injury. People HATE me in WZs. I show up, and they start hitting like wet noodles, and I'm not exactly easy to pop.

 

Thinking 31/0/10, in the long run. Deception talents just don't seem worth it, especially considering positional requirement on Maul, I can't always go the way I want, gotta stick to the guy I'm guarding, and jockeying with Maul wastes time and you risk being knocked back somewhere you don't want to be.

[Valkenheineken]

Copied my response from another thread on this issue - misinformation seems to spread rapidly here.

 

Calm down guys - testing means more than logging on and looking at your talent tree.

 

Patch 1.1 changed a bunch of tooltip descriptions to be inaccurate. The biggest culprits are Wither (says it procs Harnessed Shadows - it doesn't), Energize (procs off of use, not damage, so chance is lower than the new tooltip states, plus assassinate can't proc it), and Raze (procs of critical hits, not off of any hit with discharge applied).

 

The current theory is that 1.1 accidentally rolled back the tooltips to what they were at some point in the beta or something. The changes described have not been implemented, so don't throw out the hybrid yet.

 

Shadows have known about this since 1.1 came out - not sure why you guys aren't noticing until now.

[DarthNorik]

Yea the changes in the tootips are inaccurate right now, but I've been this buils anyway cuz IMO 8k force lightning with 12% health back > raze...

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MIMszMskrZoZf0cRM.1

[Sabbathius]

Valken, you're way off.

 

For one, I was in beta. And no, current tooltips are NOTHING like anything I've seen in beta. They're not old. They're new.

 

Second, it's not JUST 1.1. Patch 1.1, 1.1.0-something (a, b, c, I don't remember) AND 1.1.1. That is, yesterday's patch and the patches before it. Yesterday's patch changed Raze and some other stuff in Madness tree. Patch 1.1.0-something (pre-1.1.1) changed Induction. And Patch 1.1 changed Wither.

 

We have been seeing CONSISTENT changes to tooltips, all headed in the same direction - killing off hybrids. Patch 1.1.0-something killed Darkness/Deception. Yesterday's 1.1.1 killed Darkness/Madness.

 

Initially, I was with you on this - I just thought it might be a bug. But we keep getting these changes, and they're not reverting previous changes to original tooltips. It's too consistent. Once, in 1.1, I thought it was an accident. Twice, in 1.1.0-something, I got worried. But since yesterday with 1.1.1 changes? Now I'm certain. It's not an accident, it's not an oversight - there are directed and specific changes.

 

In short - I see no indication at all that this is a bug, as it has happened over 3 separate patches, and the direction is very consistent. And I see no indication that this is old tooltips, because I know what old tooltips were like. All signs and common sense point towards it being new tooltips from a newer build.

 

Though I take your point. I'll stop raging about it until we see the patch notes of the next build on PTR. I do expect to see all these as listed changes. Unless they're planning to ninja-whack us with them. Which is what they did with commendation PvP gear pricing. They nearly doubled the prices, and not a peep in the patch notes.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Sabbathius

[Skitlz]

I noticed the harnessed darkness sometime last week, tthe tooltip change, however i also noticed that it doesnt work with wither. Making me think wither is pointless to have. ALthough i do useit in pvp, and its nice for aoe slow and less dmg, but we dont get credit in medals for that 5% less dmg it causes, it doenst go into protection so credit we dont get but as a whole i guess it helps the team. Also Wither would be much more useful if it was 30m instead of 10m. Getting deathfield for more dmg and more range, to interupt node caps might be a better choice, and in that case raze is the way to go for more dmg thus the 23/0/18 build.

[Dentari]

One thing that would go a long way towards increasing the PvP viability of madness/deception would be to buff the insulation talent to up armor by 30%/60% instead of 15%/30%. I'm not sure what number would bring us on par with medium armor, but that's about what non-darkness assassins need to stay viable.

[Sabbathius]

I noticed the harnessed darkness sometime last week, tthe tooltip change, however i also noticed that it doesnt work with wither. Making me think wither is pointless to have. ALthough i do useit in pvp, and its nice for aoe slow and less dmg, but we dont get credit in medals for that 5% less dmg it causes, it doenst go into protection so credit we dont get but as a whole i guess it helps the team. Also Wither would be much more useful if it was 30m instead of 10m. Getting deathfield for more dmg and more range, to interupt node caps might be a better choice, and in that case raze is the way to go for more dmg thus the 23/0/18 build.

 

Yeah, in it's current form Wither is somewhat lacking. And while you don't get credit for the 5%, your team will appreciate it. And you CAN feel it. I definitely feel it, when I'm being hammered by several people.

 

But if they make Wither proc Harnessed Darkness? It'll be pretty nifty. Those 3xHD stack lightning strikes hurt like hell and heal you for 12% of your total HP. That's nothing to sneeze at.

 

Having said that, I can't help but compare Wither to Combust on my Powertech. Combust is a lowest tier talent in Shieldtech three, a 2-pointer. Reduces all damage done by target by 4% for 15 seconds. Used with Flame Burst (instant single target, no cooldown) and Flame Sweep (instant AoE, no cooldown). Do I need to explain how monumentally unfair that is? 4% over 15 seconds, tied to a high damage AoE ability with no cooldown? All with 2 talent points in the lowest tier? Makes me shake my head sometimes.

[Sabbathius]

One thing that would go a long way towards increasing the PvP viability of madness/deception would be to buff the insulation talent to up armor by 30%/60% instead of 15%/30%. I'm not sure what number would bring us on par with medium armor, but that's about what non-darkness assassins need to stay viable.

 

Not enough. Not nearly enough, IMHO. Armor is highly overrated anyway.

 

Consider how many classes simply BYPASS it.

Marauder - Gore, ignores 100% of the armor.

Powertech - Rail Shot, ignores up to 90% of the armor, it's their hardest-hitting ability.

Operatives - Acid Blade, ignores 50% of the armor (may be less after the nerf).

Merc - Heat Signature, reduces armor 20% (one tier down).

Etc., etc.

 

Armor is one of the most overrated defenses in the game.

[Voraxus]

Not enough. Not nearly enough, IMHO. Armor is highly overrated anyway.

 

Consider how many classes simply BYPASS it.

Marauder - Gore, ignores 100% of the armor.

Powertech - Rail Shot, ignores up to 90% of the armor, it's their hardest-hitting ability.

Operatives - Acid Blade, ignores 50% of the armor (may be less after the nerf).

Merc - Heat Signature, reduces armor 20% (one tier down).

Etc., etc.

 

Armor is one of the most overrated defenses in the game.

 

I disagree, armor is a detrimental defense. It doesn't just negate physical but also kinetic and elemental damage (so it has a part in reducing the damage of everything except internal damage). Yes, some moves have armor pen, but you can't say armor is useless because of that.

[SeppTB]

I disagree, armor is a detrimental defense. It doesn't just negate physical but also kinetic and elemental damage (so it has a part in reducing the damage of everything except internal damage). Yes, some moves have armor pen, but you can't say armor is useless because of that.

 

Slight correction to the above, Kinetic and Energy damage it negates... it does nothing against Internal and Elemental.

[Skitlz]

i guess the main point is to say is the extra crit damage on thrash and death field worth giving up Wither and its dmg bonus talents. ANd maybe even giving up harnessed darkness for the instant cast whirlwind.

 

In a 1v1 on civil war, i can cap a node without even kiling the person. if i have that talent

 

Open up with our mind CC out of stealth, start caping. most ppl will use their ability to break it about 5-6 seconds in afraid you are gonna cap. when they do instant whirlwind and click the node fast. Once thats done, the node caps as soon as the CC breaks and with 100ms delay between internet connections u always get the cap.

[johnyangelo]

There is still nothing better than 31-0-10

[DarthVenizen]

stickin with the good ol fashioned 31/0/10

 

especially now with wither adding to harnessed darkness

[Rhaphael]

Patch 1.1 changed a bunch of tooltip descriptions to be inaccurate. The biggest culprits are Wither (says it procs Harnessed Shadows - it doesn't), Energize (procs off of use, not damage, so chance is lower than the new tooltip states, plus assassinate can't proc it), and Raze (procs of critical hits, not off of any hit with discharge applied).

 

The current theory is that 1.1 accidentally rolled back the tooltips to what they were at some point in the beta or something. The changes described have not been implemented, so don't throw out the hybrid yet.

 

The tooltips are actually "current" now for NEXT patch. The one that is on PTS at the moment.

 

@OP: my new build is still my old build, 31 Darkness 10 Madness. Not had any problems with it yet, so not gonna change.

[Theology]

Wither was amazing before, it's just completely ****** now.

[Mussorgsky]

Im up in the air now. Not sure if 31/0/10 will be worth it or maybe 23/2/16 (still getting the thrash crit dmg bonus since it is the main melee move we use. Any ideas?

 

31/0/10 has been a fantastic build ever since they gave wither an AoE slow. You can slow down 5 people chasing your ball carrier in Huttball, or slow down their entire ball-running brigade. You can slow over half their entire team after a door explodes in voidstar so that you can get to the next objective first. Those are just the most dramatic uses

 

 

Now on top of that, Wither adds a stack of Harnessed Darkness? You're going to be healing for 12% health significantly more frequently now, and not only that - the 3-stack Force Lightning does a crapload of damage AND adds a huge snare AND can be a 30m attack with Recklessness. IMO Harnessed Darkness was just as good as Raze BEFORE these changes.

 

I dk about 23/2/16...if you love Death Field, maybe the old Harnessed Darkness+Deathfield build? http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rsrokrskbZZf0cRR.1 But now that this build misses out on Wither's synergy with HD...ewww

 

TL;DR: 31/0/10 was one of the best Assassin PvP builds BEFORE this new patch. Now it's significantly better and the Raze build is toast. Sadly, there doesn't seem to be much choice for Assassin tanks in the next build.

[Mussorgsky]

Addendum: I don't see many people talking about this, but the changes to Energize and Harnessed Darkness are also significant PvE buffs as well. The longer HD charge duration means you will never be forced to use up the heal when you don't need it, and you will get 3 charges very, very quickly.

[Technohic]

Addendum: I don't see many people talking about this, but the changes to Energize and Harnessed Darkness are also significant PvE buffs as well. The longer HD charge duration means you will never be forced to use up the heal when you don't need it, and you will get 3 charges very, very quickly.

 

Yes it is very good for full Darkness, but I still feel Deception needs some aide. Going to be a lot of 31/0/10 darkness builds.

[Nethershadow]

Valken, you're way off.

 

For one, I was in beta. And no, current tooltips are NOTHING like anything I've seen in beta. They're not old. They're new.

 

Second, it's not JUST 1.1. Patch 1.1, 1.1.0-something (a, b, c, I don't remember) AND 1.1.1. That is, yesterday's patch and the patches before it. Yesterday's patch changed Raze and some other stuff in Madness tree. Patch 1.1.0-something (pre-1.1.1) changed Induction. And Patch 1.1 changed Wither.

 

We have been seeing CONSISTENT changes to tooltips, all headed in the same direction - killing off hybrids. Patch 1.1.0-something killed Darkness/Deception. Yesterday's 1.1.1 killed Darkness/Madness.

 

Initially, I was with you on this - I just thought it might be a bug. But we keep getting these changes, and they're not reverting previous changes to original tooltips. It's too consistent. Once, in 1.1, I thought it was an accident. Twice, in 1.1.0-something, I got worried. But since yesterday with 1.1.1 changes? Now I'm certain. It's not an accident, it's not an oversight - there are directed and specific changes.

 

In short - I see no indication at all that this is a bug, as it has happened over 3 separate patches, and the direction is very consistent. And I see no indication that this is old tooltips, because I know what old tooltips were like. All signs and common sense point towards it being new tooltips from a newer build.

 

Though I take your point. I'll stop raging about it until we see the patch notes of the next build on PTR. I do expect to see all these as listed changes. Unless they're planning to ninja-whack us with them. Which is what they did with commendation PvP gear pricing. They nearly doubled the prices, and not a peep in the patch notes.

 

Completely agree with you.

 

Devs have also said they do not want hybrids, which strongly suggests this is their way to show us what they plan on doing ahead of time. I am guessing it is for the devs to see all the theories we have about it to further test their changes before implementing them.

[gkshow]

Noob question:

 

what was changed from and to raze?

[Pijinz]

Devs have also said they do not want hybrids, which strongly suggests this is their way to show us what they plan on doing ahead of time. I am guessing it is for the devs to see all the theories we have about it to further test their changes before implementing them.

 

That's awful PR if it is the case. Devs should simply be open about their plans for the classes way ahead of implementing changes. Then you'd see actual discussion and criticism as a response. If you just sneak in a mysterious tooltip there's confusion and speculation about whether it's real, and more panic than real discussion. Plus, it looks like a mistake, and that reflects badly on the company.

 

Looking back to WoW, there were several points in the past when Enhancement Shamans would stack caster stats for a substantial gain in dps. While Blizzard weren't always that fast in fixing/nerfing this, they were always quick to make a statement pointing out that the playstyle was unintended, and that they were going to change it.

 

Here, Bioware considers Darkness/Madness viability to be unintended (clearly they have thought this way since at least 1.1.0). Subtle hints about the viability of hybrids doesn't cut it. All they needed to say is "The Darkness/Madness hybrid tank spec is an unintended playstyle, and we plan to amend the trees in future patches in order to make the higher tier talents more desirable.".

 

What I'm now concerned about is my other characters. Specifically, my Operative is hybrid Medic/Concealment; the 31 pointer in the Medic tree is not considered an essential choice for a Medic, so many Operatives branch further into one of the other trees (usually Medic/Lethality, but I wanted something different). Is this considered an unintended build? Should I be preparing for a big change? I don't know. Bioware's lack of voice is bad PR.

[Varcan]

Since I was 23/0/18 before, the new 31/0/10 build is fine with me. After patch, should be an even stronger build. And Harnessed Shadows will be a fun new toy to play with.

 

The only thing I'm going to be really dissapionted about is there will likely be fewer Deception specs for me to crush within seconds .

Edited February 2, 2012 by Varcan

[Amnaroth]

Does one of you guys know if the chain schock procc adds a HD ?

[rossonja]

Someone care to link this 31/0/10 spec for me? I am currently using the 23/0/18 spec. I just wanna see what points have been switched around and dropped for others. Please and thanks.