I did a very basic Darkness dps breakdown a while back, and it gave me higher numbers in Lightning Charge than Dark Charge. That shouldn't be much of a surprise as Darkness tanks don't get a great deal out of Energize (at least before the Assassinate Range); see this and that. Then there's the Discharge and proc damage to add on top, so it's not really a contest. I can't see this being bigger than Deception/Madness dps though... something seems wrong if that's happening.

True story: my sub runs out today, so I just sold my spare pair of SM bracers on the AH for 1 credit.

If I were to subtract the regen from the cost of FL then I'd have to begin with less than the 17.85 Force per GCD. It is not flawed. The extra GCD is not forgotten in the spreadsheet; it is used for calculating the number of Saber Strikes over the period.

Because after Buff/Debuffs you won't even have enough Force to keep Shock on cooldown (with appropriate use of Force Lightning). Any use of Thrash will decrease the number of Shocks over time, putting you closer to V than to Ib (V coming out slightly lower). The most Force you can have per GCD is 17.85, that's assuming perfect proc rate on Lightning Reflexes (strictly impossible) and Dark Ward used once every 20 seconds. Wither used every 15 seconds is 3 Force per GCD, then you'll have an extra 1 per GCD used on Force Lightnings from Wither (one FL per three Withers). Discharge once per 18 seconds is 1.67 Force per GCD. That leaves you with 12.18 to use on Shocks and additional FL. Shock on cooldown (glossing over cooldown clashes for the moment) is 39/4 = 9.75 and you'll spend 30/12 = 2.5 on FL. Now you have 12.18 - 9.75 - 2.5 = -0.07. So keeping Shock on cooldown and converting all 3 HDs is not possible; that's with no Thrashes used at all. The best you can do is use Shock as much as possible, which is what Ib does. Now I have mentioned previously that in practice with cooldown clashes/alignment you may end up with periods of overfill following Ib. For that, Thrash is probably your best tool for a Force dump (though using extra Withers is very viable). Remember the listed strategies aren't either/or; you can mix it up mid-battle. With the numbers coming out as close as they are, it's probably better to think of the convenience of the moment at hand than anything else. I suppose I could do a further sim with occasional Thrashes but with the slant firmly on Shock, but I can guarantee the values will lie strictly between those of Ib and V.

My spreadsheet is on SW here: http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Sith-Assassin-Jedi-Shadow-Tanking-Compendium?pid=13825#pid13825 Ib uses Wither/Discharge minimally, then fills remaning Force/time with Shock and Force Lightning (where appropriate). III uses Wither on cooldown and fits in occasional Shocks + FL. V fills remaning time with Thrash only using Shock on Energize, and FL again where appropriate. It would make a huge difference, a negative one. Assassinate is comparable even with 3 HD Force Lightning. You absolutely want to be using this on cooldown once it's available.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Grease

MMOs I've played, in order of enjoyment: WoW DDO SW:TOR Neocron PSO WAR big gap... Conan

Food for thought: the tooltips for talented abilities always show base damage based on the minimum level they can be specced into, even though their actual base damage is based off caster level. All talented abilities show lower damage on their tooltips than they actually cause. This is well known.

Here's a very basic comparison: http://www.mediafire.com/?i3gj5logqaogloa Seems too big a difference to matter what stats you and the target have.

In essence, Bioware came up with a great idea in moddable gear, and then abandoned it for end game. Bemusing to say the least.

The only quirky thing in the calculation would be the extra crit damage on Thrash. I'm not so familiar with the dps specs so I don't know what sort of crit and surge values you'll have. If someone wants to post me their stats (crit, surge, weapon and melee bonus) I can do a quick number crunch for you.

Made sense to me. The +affection option is to trust in Khem's ability to handle it by himself.

I paid 100k for Grand Inq belt; I was already using the space one, but I hated how it looked. I've seen the G.I. belt go for 400k before. I've also once bought heavy belt/bracers for around 5k each and resold them for 200k.

I don't believe anybody in the thread has said they have trouble holding threat either way. Regardless it is the usual practice in MMOs to use the most optimal priority/rotation available. You are still fully capable of succeeding with a less than optimal strategy (and I must stress again that the differences are very slight).

They can't. Their version of Spike (I think?) has an animation that looks like our Tumult. That's what you saw them using.

See sig.

If you'd like it spelled out, the rebuttal is "removing Thrash from your priority list results in a slight increase in overall threat generation over time". I'm fully aware what priority is implied by the talent tree (particularly the Energize talent), but the numbers are suggesting that a different strategy is optimal. It's probably an unintended strategy, granted, which is why it's not so obvious, but things like Totem Twisting and Disease-less Blood were equally unintended, equally unintuitive and equally viable. These things happen.

You're still missing a crucial point here Vorax: bare Shocks get you to 3 HD faster than Energized Shocks. This is the very reason they are viable. The cooldown reset on Energize is redundant because you don't have the Force to make use of it. Fishing for an Energize proc costs you extra Force, and hence reduces the number of Shocks in your rotation. It is the increased rate of Force Lightnings over time that makes bare Shocks viable.

Lol, I saw someone on the other side call it a cross between Big Bird and a polar bear, so yeah I can kinda see your point. Apparently soon™, we will have the option to rip armouring from sets and the set bonus will transfer with that piece.

Oh, you're talking PvP. I see. T.G. Cid?

Dark Delirium + Kallig with the new lovely HD aura and a nice blue saber: http://oi41.tinypic.com/spdkjk.jpg http://oi41.tinypic.com/rvk66v.jpg

I feel for you, I really do, but I've got to point this out. That thing you just described; there's a word for it you know. Bureaucracy.

The problem with your thinking (in a sustained fight anyway), is that no matter how soon you get those Energize procs, you've still spent Force on getting them. In a very idealised setting, after buff/debuffs you have nearly enough Force over time to keep Shock on cooldown (spending additional on Force Lightning in between). In a less than ideal setting you won't even have enough for this. The cooldown reset on Energize might give you more Shocks in the short term, but in the long run you'll end up with less, because you don't have enough Force to use them. Hmmm, well do remember you don't need to be depleted before using Saber Strike. Unless your Force is overfilling you don't really lose anything by using Saber Strike when something else is available (other than maybe Assassinate which you want to keep on cooldown as high priority). A Saber Strike done early is one less you'll need a few seconds later. I usually like to keep my Force at around 40-60 so I have enough to react to whatever the game throws at me. Missing one Saber Strike isn't a bit deal, but how many are you missing out on? As I said above we're looking at something like 15-20% of all damage coming from Saber Strike in a sustained fight. That's not something you want to be losing. This is coming from a PvE perspective of course; in PvP you'll have a much reduced need for it*. *While we're on the subject: in PvP you'll probably have some Surge, which greatly increases the benefit of Thrash + Energize over bare Shocks. In PvP Thrash is still a monumental tool. Just posting this in case any PvPers are reading this thread thinking double-ewe tee eff.

Yep that's just what I've been using. Getting off that early Recklessness + Force Lightning gives you a good solid threat lead right from the get go. Later on in the fight if you get a second, it might well be best used on an Energize, but I haven't looked much into that yet. For short fights you're going to want to use Recklessness as early as possible. With Thrash off your bar completely, do you not find yourself with periods of Force overfill? This was my main concern with a practical application. Well now this is a mistake. I've not done a full rotation damage-per-ability breakdown since the patch, but before then we had something like 15-20% of damage coming from Saber Strike, believe it or not (and it'll be higher than that with a Shock basis). One of the reasons Shock is better than people think is because while that Force is regenerating you're using Saber Strikes, and the damage is significant. Gonna grab some numbers for a quick demonstration. With my (terrible) stats against a 30% armour target, average damage is around: Saber Strike = 526.9 Thrash = 863.7 Shock = 1206.1 Now if you were to compare purely damage per Force used you'd see Thrash at 863.7/23 = 37.6, and Shock at 1206.1/39 = 30.9, so Thrash is more "efficient" in that sense. But that sort of thinking is a trap. While Force is regenerating you're not doing nothing. You have to consider the Force deficit each ability produces and add in a number of Saber Strikes required for Force neutrality. Say you have 15.6 Force per GCD (you'll actually have quite a bit more with Lightning Reflexes). Thrash costs 23 Force, leaving a deficit of 7.4 Force, or ~0.47 Saber Strikes. So a Force neutral Thrash is a 1.47 GCD combo consisting of one Thrash and 0.47 Saber Strikes. DpGCD(Thrash) = (863.7 + 0.47 * 526.9) / 1.47 = 756.02 Shock costs 39 Force, leaving a deficit of 23.4 Force, or 1.5 Saber Strikes. DpGCD(Shock) = (1206.1 + 1.5 * 526.9) / 2.5 = 798.58 Ultimately it's the Saber Strikes that make the difference. If I have one piece of advice to share with all the Sins out there it is: use Saber Strike.

Hi. I saw your post on SW so I'm guessing you've seen the numbers (I still need to post some stuff there on Recklessness and Exploitive Strikes). I agree with what you say that dropping Thrash can make for a more convenient rotation in terms of Force management, to the point where I would be tempted to do this even if it did come out behind. With the numbers coming out how they are, I'm not in any doubt. Bare Shocks are the best use of Force to generate HD and they're more convenient. I think Zilod already said most of what I was going to: even dropping Thrash you're going to get some use out of Energize in AoE or after the Assassinate mark, and the alternatives (for a single point!) are truly dreadful. Thrashing Blades is quite poor to be fair, but it is the only talent we have that benefits Lacerate (which needs all the help it can get). So I'd keep with the same spec anyway. Thrash still gets a little bit of use if you've got all else on cooldown and your Force is in danger of overfilling; this happens occasionally even in ideal conditions when cooldowns/debuffs align (it wouldn't if you had a bigger Force pool), but becomes even more significant with stuns, knockbacks and the like. I'm tempted to say Thrash is a better use of Force than Wither (outside of refreshing the debuff) on a single target; you get Thrash (with Energized Shocks) coming slightly ahead on damage with Wither slightly ahead on threat, and I'm always more attracted to straight damage options. On the other hand you'll see a bit more healing over time the more often you use Wither. Plus, you have the convenience of choosing when to refresh the debuff. If you generate your 3rd HD from a Shock just as Wither is due to be used for the debuff, you'll end up wasting a charge. With a bit of foresight you can preempt this and get an early Wither in while still on 2 HD. All in all though, I thought the numbers were so close that all the strategies would be viable. If you're more comfortable playing one way then that'll more than make up the ~3% difference. Much more important will be not wasting HD charges, not wasting Energize procs (which I find really annoying since 1.1.2 with Thrash sometimes proccing on the second hit; meh), keeping debuffs up, not overfilling Force etc.