Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[RocketL]

You can just be Light Side Empire..

[NotRevan]

Shocking vette = ****?

 

OP: i think you're reading into this too much. how do you want the EMPIRE to be portrayed, if not totally evil? how do you think empires such as the great roman empire were? do you know what went on for their entertainment? read up on the Colosseum.....

 

i will agree, some of the dark side choices are very over the top EVIL. but thats what the dark side is. your character that you are playing as is pretty high-ranking in the SW universe, so they do what they want. yes, some of the choices make you look/feel like a total douchebag, but thats just your RL morals and reasoning kicking in. lol. light sided choices are much more rational.

 

even still, your superiors usually do get mad at you for killing someone who you probably shouldnt have killed. its not like they're encouraging genocide... theyre trying to win a war here, though, remember?

 

BOTTOM LINE: you arent forced to be an elitist, sexist, evil, raging, bigot who "*****" vette by electrocuting her. you can also be a semi-normal hero with a healthy relationship with ur companion. but i guess the whole "LIGHT SIDED CHOICE" thing instead of "DARK SIDED CHOICE" is just so lame, right?

remember, evil people generally dont have morals. so why would an evil dude be so very kind to a SLAVE ALIEN given to him by his superiors? lol, i think we can agree that bioware did a good job at being thorough, to say the least.

 

 

and no one is "forced" to use choices, there is plenty of opportunity to get 10,000 light side and dark side points. plus, diplomacy. so you can be a total hypocrite if you really wanted (evil choices in story, light side diplomacy quests and vice versa) AND i am pretty sure all of the light side equipment has a dark side equivalent.

 

and as i conclude, i leave you with this thought: When has bioware ever had a "gray area"? In all of their games that i've played, you're either a ******** or a saint. at least here we have 4 different angles! (Light side republic, light side sith, dark side republic, dark side sith)

[OtchiNiTenshi]

I'm not trolling in the least, I'm hoping to turn some heads onto something deeply problematic in a game I otherwise enjoy.

 

It's easy to dismiss these things with one liner posts and bits of nerd rage, but I'd sincerely like to see a well articulated paragraphed response in defense of the torture/flirt dynamic encountered with Vette.

 

If you think I'm alone or delusional in the matter I suggest a quick Google search or two--you'll find some professional journalists with very similar qualms. I wish we were trolling, but it's a serious issue.

 

The whole fiasco is a distressing, loud mess that we never expected from the likes of Bioware.

 

I'm not advocating censorship, I'm asking for intelligent writing and honest marketing. I don't think it would help one bit to rip every copy off store shelves and cancel accounts--that would be against my core beliefs as a human beings.

 

I'm just voicing an opinion and doing my best to raise awareness concerning issues of sexual violence--a topic perhaps more overlooked than any other aspect of game design. It holds us back.

 

My hopes are not to take away from you what you derive pleasure and fun from, only to encourage folks to take a second look at the way the narrative falls short to the point of neglecting years of progress in gender relations.

 

If anything I'm just pointing out what others seem to be too afraid to--and proposing the idea of revising the plot-line to justify the sequences with the same fair treatment afforded to audiences of the first two KotoR games.

 

These are ideas, not demands, just pointing some eyes towards the marketing and writing woes in a game I care about created by a development studio I've enjoyed for too many years to count.

 

Sexual Torture.

 

You keep using that word (phrase). I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

I've tried to read your posts, honestly I have. But it's the same argument over and over, and you reposting the same thing while insulting people who disagree with you.

 

The Slave Collar is nothing more than a 'stun gun'. Perhaps you would like we go to Youtube, and claim about 'sexual torture' anytime someone posts a video of their stupidity getting tazed.

 

IF we take it to extremes, as you seem to, we should add a warning to police that tazering someone who is drunk or resisting arrest to be 'Sexual violence'.

 

I can -somewhat- understand your argument, but I believe you are completely wrong. You rolled a class that ESRB knew about, and posted information on in their website complete with content.

 

I might give your arguments more weight if you, yanno, stopped calling something stunning/incapacitating for punishment as 'sexual torture'. You chose to play a male sith and make those decision, or if not, you chose to argue about something and vie for the removal of content others might enjoy, simply because it offended you. You have already proven you won't admit you made the choices of your own will, so I know you won't 'budge' on your belief, you are stuck in the mud, bunkered down because you are right and everyone trying to discuss it is wrong.

 

Yeah, I have a Sith Warrior. I've remade her multiple times. She's perpetually been female, and while she often shocks the crap out of Vette, there's never any 'flirt' or 'sex', and with the non-inclusion of Same Gender Romance, the only explination to you seeing 'sex' is you played a guy, and you wanted to follow that.

 

As for your original complaint, about "Evil Empire, With Horrible Moral Values", but I have to agree with everyone else who's given points to you that you seem to ignore, about how evil the 'Empire' is, and how it has been canon. Rewatch all the movies, and I do mean all of them, Episode I - VI. In order if it helps. You will see that the Empire, and those that followed the Empires' beliefs...were certainly no rose. Manipulation, Torture, Murder, all common themes.

 

Remember, one of the 'greatest' villains of all time, Darth Vader, tortured 2 humans and 1 alien for no other reason than to piss off/irritate 'The Good Guy' Luke. He also took a city that was 'free' and made it a complete totalitarian state whenever he got frustrated. Really, watch Empire Strikes Back and pay attention to it.

 

TL;DR

Electrocution/Stun technology is not -automatically- 'Sexual Torture', you are chosing to view it as such. Also, the Empire is not nice, nor do they propose 'morality' questions to players. They exist..to -be- the most extreme bad guy they can be. It's the Sith Way.

[TakDagon]

^^^^^^^^

...Exactly...

[MDav]

Well I read all the links the OP posted trying to prove his point and I have to say they convinced me this whole argument is even more full of (insert curse here) then I already thought.

 

http://kotaku.com/5872687/its-not-st...rced-voyeurism

This seems to have started this "debate" and really its one guy saying "hey I don't like playing evil characters so I felt bad having to do evil things" WOW how shocking!

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...n_1186371.html

This is literally just saying that some people (what like three IRL?) don't like treatment of Vette. I also like how it acts as if there is some kind of massive online battle happening over this. Really?! This just smacks of "oh no slow news day lets attack video games people still overreact to those right?"

 

http://n4g.com/news/714218/the-top-eight-sexist-games

http://www.spike.com/articles/xd7wnl...t-sexist-games

This is about KOTOR not SWTOR nice try though Officer Barbrady. BTW the "arguments" that those games where sexist were incredibly shoddy.

 

http://www.themarysue.com/so-maybe-including-a-shock-collar-wearing-female-slave-in-the-old-republic-wasnt-the-best-idea/

Again this is just someone seeing this drivel about sexism and rolling with it. I also love the spurious reasoning given for how torture of Vette is soooo much more evil than anything for realsies u guyz! I feel there is something wrong with someone who can rank torture as being worse depending on the sex, race, or blah blah of the people involved. Um I'm pretty sure all torture is equally horrendous when ITS IN REAL LIFE not as an OPTION in a game.

 

http://lezgetreal.com/2012/01/sex-to...-old-republic/

This is actually against your point nice investigative work Sam Spade

 

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2012/...ro-sexism.html

No where in this does it mention Vette or your "totally correct" grievances. This is just someone pointing flaws in some argument that amazing is even dumber than this one so I guess 10 points to Ravenclaw for finding that.

[XKone]

I have no problem with evil characters, I play one. I said that in my post. And if my Republic character could also do some of the things Sith can do, he would. I was making the argument that being evil is enough, and that the game would be better if Sith were outsiders. The politics and infighting would be much more immersive a setting as an mmo than what we have in ToR.

 

I was also making the point that having a 'Nazi-like' faction is really wierd for an mmo. And why anyone who is a fan of the Star Wars movies can say "Hey I want to be a Nazi!" is really bizzarre to me. I suspect immaturity or stupidity, until provided with another reason, other than the possiblity of total apathy to the story and setting of the game by players who just want to shoot lightning.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Aurrelio

[IgneusGelu]

Reading mostly the OP along with a few sprinklings of other comments I have to say that I kinda agree.

 

There just seems to be no real context to a lot of dark choices. Heck. Even the empire showing their strength and blowing up a planet had the context of wanting to prove something to the princess. Yet I digress..

 

I feel the writing is poor, honestly. I don't really want a whole lot of neutrality. Yet this isn't a super hero game. These people are NOT villains. The Empire IS a government and a whole FACTION. The way they're going about things simply does not make sense in most cases.

 

I get being evil.. yet sometimes it's between saving a couple of people about to drown or letting them drown then going through all the extra effort of fishing out their corpses, eating their corpses, then eating their kids alive just to show that you're evil.

 

It just does not make sense to go through all that trouble just to prove you're evil without any further context.

 

I mean really.. This is the sort of stuff a gritty comic book villain would do, not something you'd expect from a hardened and professionally led imperial force.

 

Perhaps some people like the huge and overly exaggerated gaps between light and dark. Yet to use my previous example of drowning people..

 

Let's say up ahead is a camp being attacked by flesh raiders, alright? So the really good person would expend lots of effort saving the people then fighting off the flesh raiders while the good person would try to throw them a life line quickly and then rush off to fight the flesh raiders. While the evil person would perhaps mock them or just ignore them and maybe fight off the flesh raiders if they HAD to. While the really evil person would go out of their way to make sure the drowning people died and either help the flesh raiders, kill both villagers and flesh raiders, or just get out some pop corn and watch the flesh raiders kill people.

 

No really neutral choices.. yet not something with such a huge split. THAT would be nice. I don't mind being good or bad.. yet sometimes these bad choices are just too counter productive to actually warrant doing, IMO. So some less bad/good choices would be nice. Yet that's just me.

[tehjai]

Snipped for good points devoid of value judgements.

 

What you're saying is a perfectly valid opinion and you're not being sanctimonious about it. I don't agree with you, but your post is an A+ example of how to properly present an opinion.

 

With respect to evil-without-consequence: I still argue that in the case of playing a Sith, in this universe and in this Empire, it doesn't make sense for being evil to come crashing down on your head when you Do Something Bad. Why? Because as a Sith, you are tacitly given carte blanche to be as evil as you like.

 

It does make for non-nuanced writing, but that's kind of the schtick of being Sith (especially Sith Warrior): you're a special Force-using snowflake who has everything handed to you so that you can go out in the world and take the power you feel you deserve. Megalomania and a lack of consequence for Doing Bad Things is kind of the M.O. of the Sith Empire, from what I've seen.

 

I don't think the lack of consequences for heavily DS Sith is poor writing as much as it is just a natural extension of the way the society is built. Who's going to punish an up and coming Sith Lord for doing exactly what they've been trained to do (channel hate and passions, live off their rage)? On a personal quest level, there shouldn't be too many consequences.

 

The game does give you a mechanical consequence for continuing to keep Vette's shock collar on -- you won't progress her class story past a certain point. Sure, you can take the gift route to maximize affection, but if your character's a jerk who won't 'free' Vette, you miss out on content.

 

It's also important to remember that there are many individuals in the Imperial bureaucracy that think the Sith are going too far with their power-seeking and their atrocious acts, but the current power structure of the Empire doesn't really allow these opinions to become popular, else the Sith themselves will quash the dissent.

 

Too, there are times when you do get harangued for making a DS choice. I encountered that on my BH after doing the Nar Shaddaa bonus series. I had the option to destroy a transport full of the families of the enemy. Since I'm playing DS, I chose to destroy it, and I honestly thought I'd score brownie points for the Empire by ensuring our enemies were totally wiped out. That's not what happened. The Sith overseer walks in looking ready to chew metal and spit nails and tells me she's disgusted at my actions and that she'd report what I had done to the Dark Council. I have yet to see any further consequence, but it may show itself in time. Even if it doesn't, though (if every consequence was played through, this game might still be in development), I still understood that taking that DS choice was a Bad Idea and that I'm In Trouble.

 

TL;DR version: Evil without repercussions is the way the Sith operate, even if parts of the Empire don't like it; the game locks you out of Vette's content if you keep her collared; there are sometimes consequences to making DS choices in the game.

[shoar_gaidin]

My Sith Warrior is currently Rank 5 Dark with NO Light Side points, married to evil Jaesa and I uncollared Vette at the first chance. *shrugs* You don't have to keep her collared to play a completely evil character. Hell, I've even selected some of the "No, I won't kill you, you and your kind will be enslaved instead" options when dealing with some of the aliens even though that is the "Light" option because I felt it more fit with the overall tone of the Sith and the Empire.

 

Ultimately, these are characters in a game. As an earlier poster said, you are playing a completely different persona when you play these characters. My Sith Warrior is an out and out bastard, who kills on a whim but he still prefers uncollared Vette because the banter is much, much better.

 

YOU decided to keep her collared, YOU have to deal with the consequences.

[LordZanos]

I don't really understand the complaint of this topic.

 

Yeah, if you push the electrocute button for her shock collar, she gets electrocuted.

 

What did you think was going to happen?

These are decisions that you make in the game. If they do not appeal to you or you do not personally want to do them, don't. If you want to roleplay a character who gets off on that or whatever, do. If you actually get off on that, go for it.

 

Nobody makes you push it. There are light side options you can pick as an Imperial. You can also play a pretty ****ed up dark side Republic character who is incredibly extremist and murders anything he considers "too dangerous" or advocates purging alien species. It's not just the empire.

Edited February 3, 2012 by LordZanos

[XjediXrf]

Your complaint is the Bad guys are Actually Evil.This is not like Wow,because it actucally has a point and the War will eventually come to an end.Time to wake up and smell the Coffee,buddy.

[AlphaAlpaca]

It's an interesting point you've raised and I do agree with some of them, however I have to mention that consequences are a major theme here. You don't have to commit genocide, make aggressive sexual remarks to Vette or keep her physicalled enslaved via a shock collar. The choice is yours and you can commit to them or not.

 

I would like to however find some shred of 'goodness' if you will or justice within the empire. Seeing that the republic is full of corrupt politicians, I see no reason why Bioware didn't put in honorable generals or Siths who care more to preserve their own planet, family or race than to serve an emperor who is only talked about.

 

I was fairly impressed with the events unfolding Belsavis and the unorthodox tactics the Republic used against the Empire. Before you say that the republic were there to save the slaves working in imperial factories. No... they weren't. They were there to disrupt and occupy a planet for production for the Empire. Saving the people is just an excuse to legitimize your invasion.

 

Yet I couldn't find vice versa with the republic. There was no Empire force acting for the good of something or some sort of misunderstanding from the Republic on the actions of the Empire where they weren't actually committing genocide or enslaving others.

 

I like to see the two factions as rather neutral, simply a clash of ideologies. It adds a touch of realism in the game. However what you get with the empire is a bunch of elitist sith jerks who boss around imperial forces while paying bounty hunters to do their dirty work.

[LordZanos]

It's an interesting point you've raised and I do agree with some of them, however I have to mention that consequences are a major theme here. You don't have to commit genocide, make aggressive sexual remarks to Vette or keep her physicalled enslaved via a shock collar. The choice is yours and you can commit to them or not.

 

I would like to however find some shred of 'goodness' if you will or justice within the empire. Seeing that the republic is full of corrupt politicians, I see no reason why Bioware didn't put in honorable generals or Siths who care more to preserve their own planet, family or race than to serve an emperor who is only talked about.

 

I was fairly impressed with the events unfolding Belsavis and the unorthodox tactics the Republic used against the Empire. Before you say that the republic were there to save the slaves working in imperial factories. No... they weren't. They were there to disrupt and occupy a planet for production for the Empire. Saving the people is just an excuse to legitimize your invasion.

 

Yet I couldn't find vice versa with the republic. There was no Empire force acting for the good of something or some sort of misunderstanding from the Republic on the actions of the Empire where they weren't actually committing genocide or enslaving others.

 

I like to see the two factions as rather neutral, simply a clash of ideologies. It adds a touch of realism in the game. However what you get with the empire is a bunch of elitist sith jerks who boss around imperial forces while paying bounty hunters to do their dirty work.

 

Really? Because doing my planetary quests as a SI, I met a lot of Generals and such that were sick and screwed up, but met some other generally compassionate people who were just doing their jobs and were perfectly normal. Maybe not heroic, sure, but still had basic human values.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I like to see the two factions as rather neutral, simply a clash of ideologies. It adds a touch of realism in the game. However what you get with the empire is a bunch of elitist sith jerks who boss around imperial forces while paying bounty hunters to do their dirty work.

 

I understand that is what you want to see. You want to see the two factions as simply a clash of ideologies. That, however, isn't how it is supposed to be.

 

Sith are evil in Star Wars. They aren't misunderstood, they aren't simply out to make things better for their people, and they aren't people who wish to engage in their beliefs without being persecuted by Jedi who don't understand that emotions can be good to engage in.

 

Sith are vile.

 

They engage in the Dark Side and they relish the power of the Dark Side. They taint and they corrupt everything around them, even things that cannot feel the Force. They control the Empire with an iron fist and will remove, by force if needed, anyone who dares to not follow their policy.

 

If a Sith says, "Engage in genocide!" then the "Good hearted general" had better do it or he and anyone he cares about will face death.

 

It is the environment that corrupts the "normal" people. It is hard, almost impossible, to grow up "good" if your entire life is built around a society structure where slavery is a good thing, where genocide is a good thing, and where deception and treachery are things that are rewarded by all figures of authority. That is simply how it is.

 

The Sith, and the "normal" people who live in the Empire are permeated by the Dark Side. They are corrupted and twisted by it. They aren't possessing of a correctly pointing moral compass because of the environment they live in.

 

The problem is that normal people have a hard time reconciling that their character wouldn't think the way that they think. Their character would, in essence, have a completely different moral base from their player. They have to understand and accept that their character is evil by their morality but doesn't think they are evil because the character doesn't accept evil as a definition for their actions.

 

A Sith would readily stab their friend in the back, both literally and figuratively, because their friend would do the same thing, they and their friend both understand that. A Sith would kill a servant to send an example to the other servants about their conduct, to do otherwise is inefficient, it isn't like the servant mattered. A Sith would engage in genocide because it is one of the few ways they have to ensure that a potential threat to them is removed from play, and when there are so many potential threats every one less you get is a good one.

 

A normal person, a slave, in the Sith Empire doesn't fight against the Sith only because of fear, they don't stand up and shout, "This is wrong!" only because they are afraid of what the Sith might do to them. The normal people don't do that because they don't think it is wrong. They were brought up believing that they deserved to be slaved. They grew up believing that they were supposed to serve the Sith.

 

That is how they think.

 

So when you get into a Sith's mind you should be thinking:

 

"The Sith are better than me, they deserve to be better than me, and I serve them because I am supposed to. They protect me, though I do not deserve it. When they become angry it is because I did something wrong."

 

So when you see the things you see when you play them, and see these as negative things, and when you ask BioWare to gray it up, you are asking them to compromise the facts of the fictional universe of Star Wars.

[Riahen]

For somebody who claims not get easily offended, clearly the OP does over a game. If a person cannot tell what is fantasy and what is reality, then perhaps they shouldn't be playing the game.

 

 

Personally I like the Empire. If Bioware changed how it works and operates to please a few "offended" (loathe that word) people, then I will be greatly upset.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Riahen

[kidchinaski]

So violence is ok, just a specific type of violence, and only if it's done in what YOU consider good taste. Huh.

 

And you think Video Games have a long way to go in terms of being an art form? Ok, I shouldn't have to tell you that there are terrible and even worse films out there in the same way that video games offend.

 

I cannot really comment on most of the Imperial stuff because I only have 2 Imperials at about level 11 and one of them is a lightside Bounty Hunter. I'll have to wait and see what tacky and offensive horrors he's capable of.

[Klaridon]

Did you read the entirety of the post? How often do you press spacebar? Do you feel there's anything problematic with the way some of the Empire quest lines are handled given it's T for Teen rating?

 

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters, aiding in slave trades, verifying race purity, sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

 

Why does it seem like developers go out of there way to make games unfriendly to women? My girlfriend was literally sickened by it

 

--and yes she agreed that under the circumstance of a more intelligent, well developed scene the actions could be made justifiably, but as they stand it's just gross. Certainly worthy of an M rating and not fitting the Pixar vibe you get for the other odd half of the content.

 

I honestly look down on you with pity. The entire story in the starwars universe, is that humans are more common thus superior, and there are slave traders and criminals everywhere, the fact that you can't sit back and just enjoy the game is very disturbing, not the game. It is, at it's roots, a GAME, and you don't just get a collar that says "Here, press this to sexually abuse your companion" I dunno where you're coming up with your accusations, you're being a cruel malicious sith, which is what being a darkside sith is all about.

 

Bottom line. You're taking the game too seriously, it's a game.

 

 

Edit: You're also looking way too far into it trying to find issue's where there aren't any, you get a slave, you can torture that slave, any sexually or gender related things are entirely made up in your head, the fact that you think it's sickening because it's toward a female, actually makes you sexist, and disgusting, because you don't just see it as shocking someone, you see it as shocking a WOMAN, so you're treating them differently. You have issues to sort out.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Klaridon

[Klaridon]

Fixed, sorry for sounding crass there. I was a little fired up about the whole situation as somebody who is active in trying to advocate for gender equality.

 

If you were trying so hard for gender equality you'd stop seeing women as women, and see them as people. you'd be asking your girlfriend to pay for some of your dinners when you go out, asking her to open your door, pull your chair, and stop looking past the fact that you get to torture a slave, into the fact that it's female, you're fooling yourself into believing you're trying to do something good when you're just prejudiced.

[Klaridon]

Later Vette watches as you engage in sexual relations with the widow of a slain enemy of the player character.

 

.

 

She doesn't watch you have sex. It cuts to black, you walk to another room with her, and do it, do you think vette is tied to you at the hip and has to watch everything? Stop making stuff up.

[CedricDur]

I didn't even play a Sith Marauder, but I refused to play Empire for a good while because of that slapstick evil you mention. Evil we-eat-babies rawr is just so... Evil should be amoral, not 'I R evil, phear me!'.

 

It was only after five characters to their teens/mid-twenties that I got bored with repeating the same quests and made a Bounty Hunter (funny enough my highest level character and still playing it) because I like the story and theme.

 

I *still* find slapstick evil on the Empire sie starting for one of the very first quests we get. Retrieve the son whose father is trying to escape with. Only option to bring the kid back? Kill the father.

 

Tsk.

[KurganNazzir]

Here, press this to sexually abuse your companion" I dunno where you're coming up with your accusations,

 

Yeah, I'm also a bit confused. I have never seen any option remotely close to sexually abusing anyone on any of my characters (male and female alike). I'm honestly not seeing any sexual violence in this game so I must not be looking hard enough. Sexual violence to me would be if when Watcher Two shot down my male Imperial Agent's flirt, he grabbed her and took her anyway, but that does not happen in this game.

 

If someone is calling for equality, I got your equality right here: My male Imperial Agent had no problem pistol whipping a female to get information from her, then killing her so she wouldn't go warning the person he was after. If that's not equality, I don't know what is. (In case this goes over your head, I'm saying it's equal opportunity violence. My IA didn't think 'oh, I can't hit a girl' he thought 'this traitor's child needs to pay the same as anyone else'.)

 

I think someone is making a mountain out of a molehill, to be honest, but we are all entitled to our opinions. To each their own.

[Kaskava]

I have a hard time taking you seriously, and an even harder time feeling any sympathy for your posts. Namely, because you don't give a single example of what you're talking about. You just spout on and on about how the Imperial writing is dull, and that it's just over-the-top evil. I play a Sith Warrior. I played one in my first beta build, and got to around 40, and I have a level 50 Juggernaut. I still have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Maybe with a little more context, you might be a bit more credible. This post, however, reeks of some ultra-liberal parent who's offended by the slightest little thing. I'm just going to assume that is based solely off of one's ability to treat Vette like a slave. Oh, wait, she is a slave. A slave YOU CAN FREE. Which is what I did. In fact, my Juggernaut is 10k/10k light side.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/01/03/the-bizarre-sexism-in-biowares-star-wars-the-old-republic/ <--- Forbes chimes in. The press is already coming in.

 

Honestly, the only thing that I take less serious then your post is this article. For one, I don't think real gamers actually care what certain media outlets think. Two, it was obviously written, and yes I read it, by someone with no actual clue as to what they are talking about.

[Dethlegion]

I did not have the time to read all 38 pages, but read the first few to get the gist of the thread. The empire has always been based on a nazi theme. They are race supremists. They employ slavery, they degrade women, they brutally murder or subjagate their enemies. This has been true throughout canon. None of it should be a surprise to anyone who is a fan of SW. Nothing I have seen in game so far deserves over a teen rating. Granted I have not played more than a couple classes so far, but both are imps.

[Kiyosa]

I didn't even play a Sith Marauder, but I refused to play Empire for a good while because of that slapstick evil you mention. Evil we-eat-babies rawr is just so... Evil should be amoral, not 'I R evil, phear me!'.

 

It was only after five characters to their teens/mid-twenties that I got bored with repeating the same quests and made a Bounty Hunter (funny enough my highest level character and still playing it) because I like the story and theme.

 

I *still* find slapstick evil on the Empire sie starting for one of the very first quests we get. Retrieve the son whose father is trying to escape with. Only option to bring the kid back? Kill the father.

 

Tsk.

Mmmyus, because going around and killing hundreds of this and that while leveling is totally gewd and righteous. Oh wait...

[Turando]

Well thought out and written OP. I also prefer to play Republic for many of your mentioned reasons, but I don't think I am ready to hang it up yet.