Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[LyriaFrost]

Combine the existing press concerning these issues with those members of the forum speaking up in several threads, not just mine.

 

I don't have a kid by the way. It was an admittedly poorly worded way of presenting a situation which I would personally find problematic for parents.

 

You know why "the press" expresses concern over things like that? Because they have to fill time in the 24-7 news cycle. Twenty years ago, stories like this would be laughed at, derided by the news editors/station managers and thrown into the trash. Now, with our "consume consume consume" mindset, the desperate need to grab peoples' five-second attention span, and the rabid need to fill every possible second with something, anything for people to listen about or get worked up over, you end up with "journalists" commenting about things they haven't even experienced -- case in point, the whole brouhaha over ME2 and the 'side ****' thing, which was conflated into accusations that "the game is just interactive sex and will turn your children into sexual deviants".

 

The simple fact is this, Shampoo: You're over-reacting. You went looking for something, and when you found it, you didn't like it. Well, guess what? That's called consequences for your actions. The fact that you PURPOSEFULLY went looking for it is entirely on you. It's not Bioware's fault. They included the OPTION for it, in a game where the evil side does (ready for it?) evil things. They DO treat people like property. They DO treat people badly. They DO torture and kill.

 

That's why they're the bad guys. They do bad things. You're not supposed to cheer for them, and think they're just misunderstood. They're EVIL. That's the whole point.

 

If you don't like it, here's an idea for you: play the Republic side. They don't do the things that you seem so upset about.

 

But by all means, keep tilting at those windmills. I'm sure one of them will turn into a giant sooner or later.

Edited February 2, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[Midasear]

Edit:Double Post. Edited February 2, 2012 by Midasear

[Sunstarr]

Originally Posted by Shampoo

Combine the existing press concerning these issues with those members of the forum speaking up in several threads, not just mine.

 

As asked for previously, why do you not provide links to back your claim? Lets see your sources.

[Kamaat]

go play clone wars

[maxetius]

How is my zapping Vette sexual?

[FuzzNasty]

You know why "the press" expresses concern over things like that? Because they have to fill time in the 24-7 news cycle. Twenty years ago, stories like this would be laughed at, derided by the news editors/station managers and thrown into the trash. Now, with our "consume consume consume" mindset, the desperate need to grab peoples' five-second attention span, and the rabid need to fill every possible second with something, anything for people to listen about or get worked up over, you end up with "journalists" commenting about things they haven't even experienced -- case in point, the whole brouhaha over ME2 and the 'side ****' thing, which was conflated into accusations that "the game is just interactive sex and will turn your children into sexual deviants".

 

The simple fact is this, Shampoo: You're over-reacting. You went looking for something, and when you found it, you didn't like it. Well, guess what? That's called consequences for your actions. The fact that you PURPOSEFULLY went looking for it is entirely on you. It's not Bioware's fault. They included the OPTION for it, in a game where the evil side does (ready for it?) evil things. They DO treat people like property. They DO treat people badly. They DO torture and kill.

 

That's why they're the bad guys. They do bad things. You're not supposed to cheer for them, and think they're just misunderstood. They're EVIL. That's the whole point.

 

If you don't like it, here's an idea for you: play the Republic side. They don't do the things that you seem so upset about.

 

But by all means, keep tilting at those windmills. I'm sure one of them will turn into a giant sooner or later.

 

Careful or you're going to get a warning for discussing political affairs. I wouldn't want anyone reprimanded for something I did unknowingly. I think mentioning the media is considered political affairs. I think if they're not going to allow us to talk about the media's role in video game censorship and content they should just close the thread.

Edited February 2, 2012 by FuzzNasty

[Shampoo]

As asked for previously, why do you not provide links to back your claim? Lets see your sources.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/05/star-wars-sexism-dark-side-vette-sex-torture-slave_n_1186371.html

 

http://kotaku.com/5872687/its-not-star-wars-without-slavery-torture-and-forced-voyeurism

 

http://n4g.com/news/714218/the-top-eight-sexist-games <---N4G hotlinked the below Spike article.

 

http://www.spike.com/articles/xd7wnl/the-top-eight-sexist-games (won a lauded spot in the top ten!)

 

http://www.themarysue.com/so-maybe-including-a-shock-collar-wearing-female-slave-in-the-old-republic-wasnt-the-best-idea/

 

http://lezgetreal.com/2012/01/sex-torture-and-controversy-in-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

 

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2012/01/is-swtor-bringing-back-retro- sexism.html <--- even taking some heat from the home team

 

Alternatively, you could utilize Google.

 

http://www.google.com

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[SableShadow]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/05/star-wars-sexism-dark-side-vette-sex-torture-slave_n_1186371.html

 

"and even forced to watch sex acts."

 

?

[Paxx_Maximus]

I can't believe that some people are surprised that Sith and the Sith Empire and those who are supporting it (Agents, Bounty Hunters) are truly evil. Think about it why do they call Bounty Hunters "scum"? Why do Agents seem to try to out evil the Sith?

 

You wanted cartoon "bad" or something? Perhaps someone who would throw water balloons at old ladies or not give a courtesy flush?

 

You will notice that when you make dark choices it makes a physical change (compare someone when you were neutral to someone who is Dark V).

 

Do you know what title you get at Dark V? The Loathsome. Not "Awesome dude". Loathsome. From my dictionary Loathsome means something that is nauseating, nauseous, noisome, offensive, sickening.

 

You become ugly. All that murder, genocide, torture and other things you do turns you into a monster.

 

No wonder those on the Sith Shadow Council wear masks. It is like the portrait of Dorian Grey. They don't want to see what a horrible monster they have become.

 

It is really obvious when you start off that you are NOT a good person. Compare Sith Warrior Seethe to the Jedi Knight’s Introspection.

 

I for one like the clear cut difference. I don't feel comfortable playing something on the Empire side as I find the choices you make to be rather abhorrent. So I like playing my "goodie two shoes" character because being able to defeat something as disgustingly evil really makes me feel good.

 

Don't take that aspect away. I don't want it to be like WoW with fake differences. I like the definite good vs. evil aspect to this game.

[Rouge]

Most of the claims against the Empire can be put against the supposedly good Republic too. Pot and kettle and so on. Empire is supposed to be the evil side, so nothing shocking in it's actions, but the Republic ups that by being hypocritical - but then what you could expect from a state which sees Alderaan - utterly dominated by squabbling snob aristocrats - as a bastion of enlightened democracy? No hope for a state of that kind either.

[Kiyosa]

"and even forced to watch sex acts."

 

?

I.e. people who write this sort of articles usually have no clue what they're talking about. Has happened countless times with many other games. Nothing but exaggerations, false facts and scaremongering.

[Midasear]

 

.

.

.

 

http://n4g.com/news/714218/the-top-eight-sexist-games <---N4G hotlinked the below Spike article.

 

http://www.spike.com/articles/xd7wnl/the-top-eight-sexist-games (won a lauded spot in the top ten!)

 

.

.

.

 

Alternatively, you could utilize Google.

 

http://www.google.com

 

The "sexist-games" article mentions KOTOR, not SWTOR. They also seem to be written by someone with either a a weak grasp of the meaning of the term sexism, or a really, really idiosyncratic definition. Apparently KOTOR is an example of a "sexist" game because it includes a lesbian character ("Juhani"). That's about the level of thinking one should probably expect from spike.com, though.

 

I'm not sure what good comes from knowing how to use Google if you can not be bothered to actually look at any of the material returned by the search.

 

I'm sorry, but one tongue-in-cheek article on Huffpo and several mentions on video game & feminist blogs is not exactly a full blown moral panic. Just compare the above with the media hysteria about Mass Effect's two 5 second clips of female-on-blue-space-alien-belly-bumping.

[SableShadow]

I.e. people who write this sort of articles usually have no clue what they're talking about. Has happened countless times with many other games. Nothing but exaggerations, false facts and scaremongering.

 

Yeah, looks like even the two articles actually addressing the topic are just repeating, word per word, Mike Fahey's single kotaku article.

Edited February 2, 2012 by SableShadow

[havok_bloodcraft]

I will say that not being able to kill kids in video games has gone way to far. eq in skyrim they will attack you but you cannot fight back. where in episode 3 of star wars anakin killed kids. the fact that I cannot is ludicrous. here go mass murdes commit acts of genocide promote racial purity capture and keep slaves torture people for information and in general kill anyone you want unless they are under 18 and then they are magically immortal.

 

Americans Draw the lines in weird places

[LyriaFrost]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/05/star-wars-sexism-dark-side-vette-sex-torture-slave_n_1186371.html

 

Quoted from the article: "whom players are reportedly encouraged to abuse, torture and humiliate." Wrong. You're not "encouraged" to abuse, torture and humiliate her. Again, this is a case of someone writing an OPINION article about something they've never actually experienced. They read someone else's article about it (the kotaku one), and wrote their own little article about it, without ever researching things on their own. This is not "journalism". It's called gossip.

 

http://kotaku.com/5872687/its-not-star-wars-without-slavery-torture-and-forced-voyeurism

 

So, again, someone went looking for something dark, found it, and got upset about it. Yes, you can mistreat a pixelated character. The sith are dark, evil, and perverse. Go figure?

 

http://n4g.com/news/714218/the-top-eight-sexist-games <---N4G hotlinked the below Spike article.

 

http://www.spike.com/articles/xd7wnl/the-top-eight-sexist-games (won a lauded spot in the top ten!)

 

Neither of those articles even MENTIONS this game. You just saw "Star Wars" and ran with it, eh?

 

http://www.themarysue.com/so-maybe-including-a-shock-collar-wearing-female-slave-in-the-old-republic-wasnt-the-best-idea/

 

This article is just ANOTHER article talking about the Kotaku one. He hasn't played the game. He's just talking about someone else's article and how it made him feel.

 

http://lezgetreal.com/2012/01/sex-torture-and-controversy-in-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

Yet ANOTHER article just referring to the Kotaku one, and going on about things he hasn't personally experienced, just basing it off someone else's reporting.

 

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2012/01/is-swtor-bringing-back-retro- sexism.html <--- even taking some heat from the home team

 

Page doesn't exist.

 

So. Let's see.

 

There's one article on Kotaku talking about it, and about 4 other articles talking about the article on Kotaku. Padding out lots of space so they can make it sound like they're being "journalists", when in fact they're just pointing at another article and talking about it.

 

"I heard that..."

"This other article said that..."

"People said that..."

 

You know what that's called? Gossip.

 

But this is the sad state that "journalism" is in, today.

 

You know the sad thing, though? If Vette were a guy, and treated this way? NOBODY WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT IT. But make Vette a sympathetic, attractive female character, and all of a sudden everyone's screaming "sexism!" just to prove how PC they are. It doesn't matter how many of the other female characters are strong, powerful, independent, and live life on their own terms. No. This ONE character means that everything is "sexist". What about all the MEN my female character stomps on? Am I being sexist for kicking the crap out of them, and treating them like insects? Oh, of course not. Everybody's too busy trying to be the White Knight and protect "poor, innocent little Vette".

 

But you know what? I give up. You can never talk rationally with people who get up in arms over things that they choose to do, and then scream about.

 

Yeah, the sith warrior can be dark. Evil. Repulsive.

 

But you don't HAVE to act that way. You have a choice. If want to CHOOSE to do something dark, don't blame other people when you actually do dark things. You're the one who made the choice. Live with it.

Edited February 2, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[SableShadow]

Page doesn't exist.

 

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2012/01/is-swtor-bringing-back-retro-sexism.html

 

No clue why that's being offered as a citation, unless it's the spanking pic.

Edited February 2, 2012 by SableShadow

[LyriaFrost]

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2012/01/is-swtor-bringing-back-retro-sexism.html

 

No clue why that's being offered as a citation, unless it's the spanking pic.

 

No idea. That article is actually someone pointing out that another person's claim that TOR is "sexist and misogynistic" is WRONG. I think he just saw the title of the article, and assumed it was one that would back up his warped perspective.

 

But like I said, I'm done. You can't reason with people like Shampoo. They try and come across as thoughtful and insightful, but it's basically "this is my opinion, and you're all wrong for disagreeing with me". No force on earth will ever sway them. No amount of logic will deter them from their self-appointed crusade to inform the world of just how WRONG everybody but them is.

Edited February 2, 2012 by LyriaFrost

[GruulTapul]

Okay, I now read all the pages and I think I understand your point to a degree, but I have only one thing to add) as the person who pointed out that you do not "like" the source material because it offers no choice on that matter.

 

Sith do evil things (by our standards) since they appear entirely natural to themselves, without needing purpose or justification. You somehow seek a holy grail of how to justify or even explain their actions, when the actions clearly do not allow for such a thing. A Sith does not feel bad for crushing the weak, he'd be ashamed if they weak were allowed to rise or resist. They do not rely upon have human morals and it would be very wrong to try and somehow explain their actions by constructing a clever story of how it came to that. Sith are constructed in Star Wars in such a way, that they do not need underlying motives to torture, kill or abuse somne. This is just the way they were written, they're pretty one dimensional in that regard.

 

Still, Bioware should not try and go against it, because this is Star Wars after all.

 

As a Eruopean I have no idea about ESRB or PEGI, but I probably wouldn't let a 13 year old play the game. But then as someone else said the old Testament has no age requirement as well and it is much much worse than Star Wars could ever hope to be .

[fuzzybob]

For real its a game, fantasy not real

If someone can't tell real life from fantasy its not the games fault

If my dog knows the difference between a play fight and a real fight since i still have my hands, then you should too

[Sunstarr]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/05/star-wars-sexism-dark-side-vette-sex-torture-slave_n_1186371.html

 

http://kotaku.com/5872687/its-not-star-wars-without-slavery-torture-and-forced-voyeurism

 

http://n4g.com/news/714218/the-top-eight-sexist-games <---N4G hotlinked the below Spike article.

 

http://www.spike.com/articles/xd7wnl/the-top-eight-sexist-games (won a lauded spot in the top ten!)

 

http://www.themarysue.com/so-maybe-including-a-shock-collar-wearing-female-slave-in-the-old-republic-wasnt-the-best-idea/

 

http://lezgetreal.com/2012/01/sex-torture-and-controversy-in-star-wars-the-old-republic/

 

 

http://www.swtorstrategies.com/2012/01/is-swtor-bringing-back-retro- sexism.html <--- even taking some heat from the home team

 

Alternatively, you could utilize Google.

 

http://www.google.com

 

 

Thank you for the links and your cited sources. I do not think I need to waste time in debunking them, as others already have.

[tehjai]

She takes the shocks in stride--one could even interpret her as enjoying them with her effervescent sassy complaints and willingness to do your bidding regardless.

 

I have not played the SW storyline; but if you can interpret Vette as *enjoying* the shock treatment and sexual violence, what's wrong with that? In an Empire with power structure and xenophobia and acts of genocide, the idea that some people in this world get off on violence isn't really that far-fetched. I think *that* might be the reason it's in the game -- the sadism and psychopathy of the Empire has been taken to its logical extreme.

 

But the extreme is a *choice* that you can make. If you as a player are uncomfortable with the idea of Vette as a slave, you can take that collar off and be her friend. And suddenly, all the sexual violence subtext (that you've already said can be interpreted as The Things That Vette's Into, which kind of strips most of the uncomfortable factor for a lot of people) is gone, gone, gone and you don't deal with it.

 

Bioware has done nothing wrong in playing out evil to its conclusion, and this new post of yours makes me think that you're a kink-shamer who dislikes the idea that women could enjoy things that you deem inappropriate. You speak of the possibility that Vette might enjoy her shock-treatments as something disgusting and I have to ask why? If she likes being shocked, why not shock her? And again, if you personally aren't comfortable with it -- you don't have to do it.

 

And for the billionth time, it is not the responsibility of a game company to uphold real-world morals and ideals in a fictional universe. It is the responsibility of the people who seek to uphold real-world morals in the real-world to take this entire thing as a work of fiction and to act accordingly.

Edited February 2, 2012 by tehjai

[AGoldCrayon]

I'm going to go the opposite direction here and say I was disappointed that I wasn't allowed to make dark side jaesa my wife and vette my torture-loving concubine. Totally ruins the immersion aspect for me.

 

That being said, if you felt sqeamish about the choices you made, maybe you should reflect on yourself as a person. Choices have consequences, and not only do I think it's good that a game acurately reflects that, but I think the teen rating is appropriate. There is no nudity or visualized gore, and sexual innuendo is just that, innuendo.

 

If you don't like what your character has become, based on your own choices, reflect on your own set of values.

 

edit:

If given the chance, I would have peeled the skin off Quinn and deep six'd him into outer space too for his betrayal. Taking away the ability to kill off our companions made me a bit sad, but I understand why they did it. Would result in the same problem we have here: someone making a choice then regretting it and wanting to take it back.

 

Edited February 2, 2012 by AGoldCrayon

[bigpapabeef]

OP is just a smarter version of the reg QQTrolls. I DUN NUT LIKE DIS. time tuh complainz.

 

 

if you dont like it. reroll Jedi. there are those of us ( myself included ) who enjoy a truely evil faction.

 

 

lol at Horde.

[Rouge]

As a Eruopean I have no idea about ESRB or PEGI, but I probably wouldn't let a 13 year old play the game. But then as someone else said the old Testament has no age requirement as well and it is much much worse than Star Wars could ever hope to be .

 

PEGI is the European standard. And in it SWTOR is ranked 16+.

[XKone]

I think Bioware made a mistake with Sith being playable. It should have just been lightside/darkside and people fight along localized factions for control of the Senate, the Republic, and all its territories.

 

Sith are supposed to be evil, so evil I can't imagine why anyone who is a fan of the Star Wars movies and franchise would want to play them. They are supposed to be more evil than even anything we as humans here on Earth are. And Bioware does a great job at making them close to as evil as us.

 

I want to play with dark force powers and play bounty hunters, but being a world destroying tyrant? Not what I'm looking for, and I'd be fine with being less powerful than Sith npcs because my characters can't be as evil.

 

By the way I play a backstabbing, executing, stealing, lawbreaking, chaos-loving smuggler: evil enough to be a concern for the 'good' people of the Star Wars universe, but no Sith.

 

I know it's cliched but having Sith as a playable faction is like if there was a WWII MMO and you could be Nazi's. I don't know why anyone would want to do that, and that Sith outnumber Republic players on nearly every server is disheartening.