Sexual violence, slavery, and genocide. Just another day in the Empire?

[Kiyosa]

A sizable and offensive step back for us fans.

For you personally you mean. And maybe some others. But not the entire fanbase. Generalizations ftl.

 

Why are scenes such as Vette's introduction be written in a manner which actively and punctually demonstrates the sensitivities contained in a topic so ardous and woeful?

Why not? Please, do tell us why they should not be written the way they are?

[Rhapsodic]

Choice doesn't eliminate what myself and many others see as the problem here. Rather it's the disappointment of the direction the story takes and the inconsequential nature of said choices.

 

What good is a choice if Vette is, for the most part, OK being a slave? Again, the problem resides in tasteless writing.

 

Please acknowledge that I fully understand players have the CHOICE to be kind to Vette, this isn't my concern. Quite to the contrary, I enjoy that Bioware allows us these sorts of decisions, no matter how difficult or controversial they become.

 

My beef is with a downright pathetic presentation of the story revolving the decisions proposed in scenes such as those with Vette. They seem quite unlike Bioware. A sizable and offensive step back for us fans.

 

Why are scenes such as Vette's introduction be written in a manner which actively and punctually demonstrates the sensitivities contained in a topic so ardous and woeful?

 

You keep saying "many others"...I think I've seen POSSIBLY two people "remotely" agree with you in ALL these posts. Your beef, as you put it, is with the rating? I have kids....varying ages---THEY LAUGH AT THIS. I have heard the word "corny" several times....As someone posted earlier..they see ALOT worse in the news, on the net, in their own schools. In their daily lives. If you're worried about how your kid might respond to it, don't let your kid play. If you're worried about how OTHER kids might handle it, DON'T. That's for their parents to decide. No one has appointed you High Guardian Of What My Kids Should See. My kids have been chilling out with Freddy Krueger, Stephen King, and American Pie since they were toddlers and you know what...? They're all stable, happy kids who KNOW none of it is real. Get a grip dude. Seriously.

[Rhapsodic]

What is absolutely shocking to me is how anyone could not think that The Empire, as portrayed in Star Wars, is one of the most vicious, evil and sadistic organizations ever portrayed in science fiction. Why could anyone be surprised that as an Imperial, your character may enjoy torture, senseless slaughter or even sexual violence?

 

This precedent has been firmly established by the Star Wars Universe for over 3 decades now.

 

Let's go back to 1977 when Star Wars first burst into the scene. We see The Empire building a super weapon to destroy entire civilizations. And then they use it, for no other reason than to make a point. Not to save The Empire, not because there was some great historical turning point at stake that threatened all they had established, but simply to make a point. "...millions of voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." is how Obi-Wan felt it, rightly so, because millions had been callously murdered.

 

Let's not forget Darth Vader, willing to choke a man to death in plain view for merely a differing opinion. Nothing more, they simply didn't agree. Yet I have never heard ANYONE complain about this behavior. Ever.

 

Then you have the torture of Princess Leia, a legally protected dignitary. The device used on her made water-boarding look like a day in the kiddy pool.

 

The same behavior is exhibited throughout the remaining movies. Extreme torture is used, mindless killing, slavery and so much more. Is anyone really going to argue that a shock collar is more outrageous than a man slaughtering a school filled with trusting children in cold blood? This was all at the hands of The Empire.

 

This sudden uproar about a few choices the player is presented, but is not required to make, is suspicious. Either the handful of outraged people have been willfully blind to the vicious acts portrayed by The Empire in Star Wars over the last 34 years, or have an alternative agenda. What that could be may be garnering attention for themselves or simply degrading SWTOR in order to pull potential customers away.

 

So let's get some honesty. If you are truly outraged by the choices BioWare has offered to Imperial players, which happen to be fully in line with how the organization has been portrayed, we want to know if you're an idiot living under a rock for the last 30 years OR if you have some other agenda. Come clean, we are waiting for a truthful answer.

 

Either way your opinion can be disregarded.

 

 

 

This was SO good I had to bump it. I kneel at your feet and present to you a shock collar, to be used at your discretion.

[Tobias_Night]

Star Wars: Serious Business

[Shampoo]

For you personally you mean. And maybe some others. But not the entire fanbase. Generalizations ftl.

 

 

Why not? Please, do tell us why they should not be written the way they are?

 

I made a mistake in typing that--though I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to.

 

I meant to say Bioware's failure to present the consequences to the player's actions--I've since edited the post several times to correct my initially abysmal sentence structure. The post was admittedly a bit hurried.

[Shampoo]

You keep saying "many others"...I think I've seen POSSIBLY two people "remotely" agree with you in ALL these posts. Your beef, as you put it, is with the rating? I have kids....varying ages---THEY LAUGH AT THIS. I have heard the word "corny" several times....As someone posted earlier..they see ALOT worse in the news, on the net, in their own schools. In their daily lives. If you're worried about how your kid might respond to it, don't let your kid play. If you're worried about how OTHER kids might handle it, DON'T. That's for their parents to decide. No one has appointed you High Guardian Of What My Kids Should See. My kids have been chilling out with Freddy Krueger, Stephen King, and American Pie since they were toddlers and you know what...? They're all stable, happy kids who KNOW none of it is real. Get a grip dude. Seriously.

 

Combine the existing press concerning these issues with those members of the forum speaking up in several threads, not just mine.

 

I don't have a kid by the way. It was an admittedly poorly worded way of presenting a situation which I would personally find problematic for parents.

[Kiyosa]

I still fail to understand why you care so much, simply put. Like so many said before, there's a lot worse out there in other games, online, on TV and the movie theaters. You someone seem overly disturbed, even hurt, that Bioware is one of the places to find such? Maybe you should take a step back and chill a bit indeed... It's too much of a triffle to go nuts over. Edited February 2, 2012 by Kiyosa

[Syrocc]

Empire = fascist totalitarian regime;

 

Sexism, racism, slavery and injustice are, naturally associated with this concept.

 

In fact, I've just rewatched the SW movie series, even the republic is lacking in democratic traits (the election of Palpatine as Supreme chancelor for example)

[Shampoo]

I still fail to understand why you care so much, simply put. Like so many said before, there's a lot worse out there in other games, online, on TV and the movie theaters. You someone seem overly disturbed, even hurt, that Bioware is one of the places to find such? Maybe you should take a step back and chill a bit indeed... It's too much of a triffle to go nuts over.

 

I've answered this several times already--but I'll make this easier on you and some of the other folks who accuse me of merely trolling.

 

I care because I think The Old Republic is otherwise remarkable, and that Bioware is, or at least was one of the only game developers who not only created AAA RPGs, but recognized major societal issues.

 

There's a direct answer for you. Why did you care to ask me my motivations--out of curiosity?

 

I also care because I choose to care and believe the issue to be understated by active members of the community.

 

For Yoda's sake*. why do you care enough to post on the forum boards and comb my posts if you only intended to ask me my motivations, which I've revealed already countless times.

 

Why do you not care about presenting a well thought out reply?

 

*No mention of religion allowed, another fantastic double standard, another example of the unfortunate reality of not being able to discuss the societal facets which models those found in Star Wars.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[Kiyosa]

Because I think The Old Republic is otherwise remarkable, and that Bioware is, or at least was one of the only game developers who not only created AAA RPGs, but recognized major societal issues.

 

There's a direct answer for you. Why did you care to ask me my motivations--out of curiosity?

 

I also care because I choose to care and believe the issue to be understated by active members of the community.

 

For Yoda's sake (no mention of religion allowed, another fantastic double standard), why do you care enough to post on the forum boards and comb my posts if you only intended to ask me something I've already outlined more than once?

Let's say you're on your way to work for example and happen to stumble on a person at the parkling lot, behaving in an (for you) extremely unorthodox way. Wouldn't you glance, perhaps even walk over there and see what the fuss is about?

[Shampoo]

Let's say you're on your way to work for example and happen to stumble on a person at the parkling lot, behaving in an (for you) extremely unorthodox way. Wouldn't you glance, perhaps even walk over there and see what the fuss is about?

 

Well by the logic of some of the less contributive posts in this thread, I should waltz over to my car and drive home without so much as glancing backwards.

 

Yeah, I've picked a battle which to some might seem trite--and yes, it's somewhat selfish in the grand scope of things, but why not care?

 

If you take the time to spend countless hours playing the game and frequent the message boards it seems a no-brainer to me to post about what I care about. You know, to use the boards for what they're intended for: feedback, discussion and community building.

 

------------------------------------ *off topic for a moment*

 

TNT: We know Drama, ToR Forums: We Know Illiteracy, trolling and inability to think critically.

 

Although I must say, given the public nature of the board and the size of the community I'm actually quite elated with how many intelligent replies I've received--both contrarian and in agreement. In all seriousness, consider me pleasantly surprised.

 

It's fun to watch, I agree.

 

--------------------------------------

 

...and back to your feature presentation folks!

 

When it comes down to things, I think a lot of the folks who do post in an attempt to aggravate those perpetuating intelligent discussion aren't unintelligent or without a minor amount of contribution.

 

The trolls bump the thread and accurately represent the population of folks who actively decide not to care to articulate themselves one way or another.

 

The anger of trolls and ragers in these situations occurs when individuals advocate for something as seemingly trite as lowering fat content of potato chips to fundamentally changing the way we function as a society. (i.e. Martin, Malcolm)

 

To clarify, I'm not directly comparing myself to those world changing folks in any way. They were different sorts and I have more in common with the average loaf of bread than said revolutionaries.

 

That being said; people who lack the motivation to articulate their convictions resent those who possess the abilities and perseverance of folks that do.

 

I can't say I'm not guilty of the same angry behavior, so live and let live. In this case the cool thing is they're helping keep my points relevant.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[havok_bloodcraft]

Ok I will say that my main is a sith warrior (juggernaut) at lv 50 I am sitting at dark V I have shocked vette a few time early on to establish dominance but have never been flirty/sexually aggressive towards her I generally treat her nicely I have never had any interest in violating her or any other npc in a sexual manner sure I zapped her a few times in the beginning but I did not then proceed to try to use her as a sex slave. I have committed acts of genocide killed defenseless people taken bribes and shipped back dangerous artifact to the empire sometimes at the cost of innocent lives but sexual abuse was not an option I entertained. I think it says more about some people as players that they would seek this kind of behavior but for the game to have it in their content does not make them evil these things are in there as evil options so the game is telling you when you do these things they are bad. My entirely consensual relationship with Jaesa is satisfying and probably a bit too much for the rating this game received and as such I would not let my son play it but that is a decision I made having seen the content and if all parents did the same we might not need a rating system.

 

Shame on all of you who mistreated the poor alien slave girl then took her innocence. You should analyze your yourself and see why you were drawn to this course of action. but mas murder/theft/corruption these are and always have been the villain stock that make hero soup yummy.

[internaty]

First: i think the sith empire is incomptend

 

Second: so far all evil in swtor is underwelhming.

 

I mean bribe's mass murder ****?

Ow please we gamers do that every day in games:P

 

ofcourse if bioware allowed you to see true evil for what it is it would be rip apart by goverments gamer families etc.

 

After all you still cant hurt kids or use any torcher methods outside force chock or lightling.

 

If anything swtor shows alot of evil but it is but a top of what true evil is.

[Shampoo]

Just a quick correction:

 

I recall a specific occurrence on Hutta in which you can orphan a young child and take a bribe from his own mother to forcefully send him to Korriban to become a Sith.

 

Maybe not physical violence against children, but undeniably mental and emotional violence. You do, after all, murder his father in cold blood right before his eyes and force him into a life of malevolent slaughter. (as implied by the dialogue)

 

This is aside from my central argument. I'm not stating my opinion on that quest line, its writing or if it should change the way ToR is marketed.

 

To reiterate, and I'm not referring to any content in particular. My stance remains in the belief that if these themes present themselves, I believe it should be the obligation of the content creators to add proper meaning and justification.

 

I will not discuss the quest I mentioned in the beginning of this post, this thread has enough deviation from the intended topic.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[GHOSTxALPHAWOLF]

Ok I am not flaming you or anything you are entitled to your opinion. However (as I am also entitled to mine) I find yours UN-agreeable. If you pay attention to the star wars saga, it to endorses all these things that you hold issue with, in the older star wars movies Leia (not sure if her name is spelled right.) was a slave to hutt, and was in a tiny little bikini, and had a collar and chain around her neck, is it not assumed that she was a SEX slave? That she was harrased? Then when the hutt was done with her he tried to feed her to a rancor and watch her be eaten alive for his further enjoyment and pleasure. in the newer movies Anakin, a mere boy, was a slave along with his mother. Then in a future movie the same boy then tried to free his mother, watched her die, and slaughtered an entire village of men, women, and children. But all this is ok because we only paid money to watch it in theaters, and then buy the movie and watch in our homes, several times, then buy the special editions, then show our children these movies, that's ok. But heaven forbid, we allow teenagers to play a game where you can CHOOSE to be evil, where you can CHOOSE to "Sexually Harass" Vette, and where you can CHOOSE to torture civilians. The only thing BioWare is guilty of is making a game that follows the canon set by George Lucas. It is the players who are guilty of being evil. And if your concerned about children of ages under 13+ playing this game consider this, to play you need a parent to create your account, and a parents credit card. Before you get second 1 in the world of SWTOR, shouldn't it be the parents job to play the game? To figure out weather this is something they want there children playing? To torture Vette for the greater good of child censorship? But parents censoring there children?! Thats so last century... isnt it? No now parents but 8 year old's call of duty and take them to see Saw, yet it is activision who gets blamed not Johnny's mother.

 

 

Now... on the other hand, if the above mentioned things make you squirm, then why on earth would you play a SITH, the very essence of evil, the encouragers of slavery, the masters of death and chaos, even if it was "To blow off steam." you know what that phrase tells me? That you went into the most violent class (Sith warrior) on the most violent side of the game possible fully knowing it would be violent, and then being surprised at finding VIOLENCE!

 

However! I will say this, I agree with you on a few notes. 1). ESRB is flawed, when games like Devil May Cry (which the monsters therein turn to dust when defeated) garner a M rating yet something like this, which has slavery, violence, gore, racism (granted ALIEN racism but still a form of racism) slides by with a T. Then again... Beowolf the animated movie... got away with a PG-13 rating... a movie which includes adultery (multiple times), decapitation (again multiple times), suicide (multiple times), and nudity throughout most of the movie. Yet we all know if it was live action it would be rated R... possibly NC-17. Does the shiny CGI change the subject matter? Rating Systems are flawed, it isnt up to them, or the government to dictate what is and isn't appropriate for our children, it is up to us, the people, and the parents. We must sit down and talk with our kids, teach them what is right, what is wrong, and lead be example. It is our jobs to be involved with there lives, and to decide what, and when, they should be exposed to.

[Shampoo]

Again, it is my personal belief that the movies provide adequate character development and continuity to justify the portrayal of spoken atrocities.

 

Even if you ignore that fact altogether, my argument centers around Bioware and the product by itself, not what one should expect from any external piece of media or literature.

 

All forms of atrocity can be presented in a tasteful and commentative way to audiences.

 

I am not condoning violence, sexuality or genocide being present in The Old Republic. That is indeed part of Star Wars. If you'd read the thread, you would have known that.

 

My primary objection is towards how inconsequential and underdeveloped the context, characters and narrative is surrounding these disturbing sequences.

 

Negligent authors. Irresponsible deployment of product. These are the bullet points I'm concerned with.

 

post script*

 

If the game was a vivid Crysis quality FPS showcasing inexcusably horrific crimes against humanity with nothing in between but included intelligently written dialogue and a proper marketing treatment that's fine by me.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[Kiyosa]

Well by the logic of some of the less contributive posts in this thread, I should waltz over to my car and drive home without so much as glancing backwards.

 

Yeah, I've picked a battle which to some might seem trite--and yes, it's somewhat selfish in the grand scope of things, but why not care?

 

If you take the time to spend countless hours playing the game and frequent the message boards it seems a no-brainer to me to post about what I care about. You know, to use the boards for what they're intended for: feedback, discussion and community building.

I see your point and understand the "why you care so much" now. However, it's not what you say but how you say it more often than not. You come across as rather arrogant and overly concerned about this (more than you should, although like I said I get the why to a certain extend). You have repeatedly insulted the community or its majority, even if not directly, by using snide expressions to describe the intelligence of people in order to justify their disagreement towards your arguments. That...doesn't sit well with people. Even if there were more agreeing with you, they'd be held back to do so openly because of this behavior.

[xeenoos]

well ive read this entire 32 page thread and what ive come up with is that you are

 

1 a troll

2 you actualy believe in this garbage

3 you just want attention

4if you see this you will have a heart attack

[Shampoo]

I see your point and understand the "why you care so much" now. However, it's not what you say but how you say it more often than not. You come across as rather arrogant and overly concerned about this (more than you should, although like I said I get the why to a certain extend). You have repeatedly insulted the community or its majority, even if not directly, by using snide expressions to describe the intelligence of people in order to justify their disagreement towards your arguments. That...doesn't sit well with people. Even if there were more agreeing with you, they'd be held back to do so openly because of this behavior.

 

In regards to my continued posting here and behavior:

 

Timidity and lying heavily on humility is enormously important--this is true. However you and I both know this is a board with a community who floats threads largely based on loud and heavily polarizing topics. Sadly, sometimes it helps to add arrogance (assuming it adds constructively to the subject and refrains from avoiding the ToS)--it garners bumps, views, discussion and passion.

 

OK so this post isn't absolutely necessary. But in all honesty, sometimes to get a point across you have to defend your laurels with a bit of red meat. Even the most peaceful of revolutionaries were loud critics of their opponents and relied on a certain degree of grandiosity.

 

But uh, yeah, I'm not Ghandi--I'm just saying, there's a difference between vehemency and dismissing those who oppose entirely.

 

It's also just part of my character. I won't result to outright returning fire unless it adds to my central argument and this thread largely emphasizes that.

 

I apologize if I often appear egotistical and pretentious, it's not my intention and I'll do my best to tone that down, really, but writing is my passion and passion is my writing--I'm being completely honest in the subject matter.

 

--------------------------------------

 

One major thing that I expected and am trying my best to deal with is reiterating the same points over and over when presented with arguments I've addressed countless times. I'll do my best to ignore those types of posts now as I've made the mistake of consistently indulging these folks.

 

Your question seems to have been honest, that's cool. I care a lot about Star Wars--haha. I also grew up on Bioware AND Star Wars, that contributes to my often fierce tone and self-promotion. I want to see the game mature, and this is one of the ways to communicate a major concern of mine and many others.

 

I apologize for my overly heated attitude. While I do care about the issues at hand, I'll work on being a more active listener here. Cheers.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Shampoo

[ProfessorWalsh]

*snip*

 

Your complaint, Shampoo, stems less from this game and more from a dislike of the source material that this game is based on.

 

I will attempt to explain:

 

Star Wars is not supposed to be an in-depth realistic science fiction series that make a reader/watcher question their own concepts of good and evil. It was never intended to make the observer begin an internal debate over the benefits of democratic freedom vs a divine mandate monarchy. These are things that Star Wars is not supposed to do.

 

Star Wars is supposed to be a fantasy series, a fairy tale if you will, that takes place in a science fiction setting. It is supposed to have the elements of a modern fairy tale (as opposed to a Grimm's version) such as, but not limited to, simple concepts of clear good and evil, high adventure, and most importantly a happy ending.

 

This is mirrored throughout the game. The morally wrong decisions are almost always the worst decisions in hindsight. For example:

 

 

In the Essles it is possible to space the Engineers to make it to the bridge sooner. Making it to the bridge sooner however does not change the story, no additional people die if you get there later rather than sooner. Spacing the Engineers, if done, serves no benefit. It is an evil action, which costs many lives, and does not accomplish any good what so ever.

 

 

You are not supposed to play the Empire and think, "Yeah! These guys are just misunderstood!"

 

Sith aren't misunderstood. They. Are. Evil.

 

The Sith Empire is supposed to represent the ultimate evil actually. In the movies, for example, the Galactic Empire was meant to personify all of, and only the, worst parts of Nazi Germany.

 

The Sith Empire is a government that is ultimately held together by fear. Each tier in the empire is held by a different fear. The non-Force Sensitives fear the Force Sensitives. The Force Sensitives fear the Darths and the Dark Council. The Darths and the Dark Council fear the Emperor.

 

Realistically, and even in Star Wars, this kind of government would not last long... If the person ruling it wasn't capable of mentally dominating anyone who tried to stand against him anyway.

 

All in all your gripe is less with the game and more with the setting and source material. You temper this with a heaping helping of praise for World of Warcraft (which has many more flaws than this game by far, and has far weaker story) which only serves to weaken your position.

 

Edit:

To add...

 

Also one of your complaints seems oddly misplaced. If BioWare had NPC's react poorly, or at least in disdain for, or in shock of abuse and torture it would break verisimilitude. The reason being that in the Sith Empire the Sith characters have been raised to believe this is normal. Even those who were enslaves by the Sith, like Vette, have lived with this for most of their lives.

 

(BioWare, in fact, stated once that at the time of the sacking of Coruscant Vette "wasn't even a teenager" and as such we can extrapolate that she was less than 13 at the time, probably 11-12. Since this game takes place sometime around 10-12 years after the sacking that would mean that for around half of Vette's life she has been a slave. This is assuming that Ryloth, her homeworld, fell around the time of the sacking. It is far more likely that she has been a slave her whole life as the Great War lasted 30 years and Ryloth is on the outskirts of Republic territory.)

 

The treatment they are subjected to is simply a part of every day behavior for them. You are simply reacting to it in the manner of an outsider, which is why it appears so horrific to you. You are intended to find this behavior horrific, that is actually the point with the narrative.

 

The Sith are meant to disgust you. You should feel that they are horrible. You also should accept that they don't see themselves as horrible.

Edited February 2, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Kiyosa]

Your question seems to have been honest, that's cool. I care a lot about Star Wars--haha. I also grew up on Bioware AND Star Wars, that contributes to my often fierce tone and self-promotion. I want to see the game mature, and this is one of the ways to communicate a major concern of mine and many others.

I believe you're pretty alone in that crusade, if not entirely, then with only a small minority. There's no point going to those extends just to achieve that, while making enemies and spending god knows how many hours discussing something that will most probably not change anyway.

 

At the end of the day, you choose ways to spend your spare time with in order to have fun. Most of those activities won't fulfill your expectations to 100%. So you have to choose whether you put up with the disadvantages or prefer to let it be. What is less of an option is trying to convince a vast majority to agree with you when they obviously don't. Even from a practical point of view, you're not having fun doing so I'd imagine, so it's actually quite counterproductive, isn't it? There's simply some things you cannot change and banging your head against a wall won't do you any good either.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kiyosa

[SableShadow]

The Sith are meant to disgust you. You should feel that they are horrible.

 

Exactly.

 

I started off maxing out DS points on my Chiss Agent and, while I largely succeeded, I still ended up with a few hundred LS points. Some things my agent wouldn't do. And some things he regrets doing.

 

It isn't a perfect system (some of the DS/LS choices have me scratching my head), but the story drove me off course (granted, only a little) from my original intent ... in my opinion, a good story.

 

You also should accept that they don't see themselves as horrible.

 

There are degrees of horror ... at least in the IA story line. There were a few occasions in which I felt relief at finding "oh, this is one of the less psychotic Sith ... whew, maybe he'll be marginally reasonable."

Edited February 2, 2012 by SableShadow

[Sunstarr]

The later of the quoted posts in the above comment seems to refer to a sort of indentured servant, not relating to the contemporary definition we attach to slavery.

 

And this, is part of your issue of not understanding. You are not thinking outside the box, as by your own admission, you see things in a black and white fashion, sticking only to the contemporary definition of what slavery "is". In what Bioware has developed through story, which you seem to take issue with, takes this aspect into consideration.

 

You need to think, read between the lines, and asisst yourself in developing your character's story, which is helped along by how the overall plot turns out. Bioware's writers have provided this, while you take the part of the active participant.

 

Mountain out of a molehill, as stated before.

 

I still have yet to see proof to the contrary of these "other professional journalists" who agree with you, as you stated earlier. Provide links.

[Midasear]

To reiterate, and I'm not referring to any content in particular. My stance remains in the belief that if these themes present themselves, I believe it should be the obligation of the content creators to add proper meaning and justification.

 

Reiterating with a thesaurus at hand seems to be about all the OP manages to do.

 

Since you never actually says how you would have done things differently, I'm kind of forced to assume that by "proper meaning and justification" you mean either "contains Comic Code Authority moralizing of the sort I think the broad majority of gamers (who happen to be far less intelligent than me) need to avoid becoming depraved" or "story outcomes of which I approve after the fact." You might also think Bioware's writing would be improved if it were as pompous and heavy handed as your posting style. If so, you are wrong.

 

You also seem to believe this is somehow out of keeping with Bioware's portrayal of "darkside" characters and situations in their earlier games. This is so wrong it makes me suspect you never actually played a "bad guy" in a Bioware game or that you paid absolutely no attention to anything but your character stats if you did. Going all the way back to Baldur's Gate, evil NPCs, PCs and their companions have been pretty monstrous. Darth Malak slaughters 100s of billions of people because he gets impatient about locating _one_ jedi. Darkside Revan murders most of his companions sort of just because, including a teenage girl who refuses to fight back - mistakenly convinced that her friend will have a change of heart. In Jade Empire, a closed fist "Student" will commit the human sacrifice of a loyal follower in order to destroy a benevolent force of nature. A pure Renegade Shepard will commit _multiple_ genocides and later BRAG about it to another SPECTRE agent. And don't even get me started about the origin stories for City Elves or Dwarf Commoners in Dragon Age. The "Bad Guys" in any randomly selected Bioware game make CJ Johnson look like a solid citizen.

 

This thread has gone on for over 30 pages now, and been locked at least once. And all we really have from the OP so far are long-winded posts laden with five-dollar words that express little more than "I feel uneasy when my evil PC is actually permitted by the writers to do evil things in game. My discomfort is BIOWARE's fault! Somebody oughtta DO something! QQ!"

 

Other than that its all horse manure devoid of specifics. For example, for all the self-important hysteria about Vette's shock collar, we still have no idea how the OP would have written Vette differently. Or how he would have introduced "proper meaning and justification" into the story as a writer. All we are getting is lots of hot air.

 

The OP may not actually mean to be a troll, but until he describes the alternative he actually wants with something other than vague generalities and historical anecdotes, he might as well be.

[Propecius]

I don't have the patience to read the whole thread, so I may just be saying something that could best be summarized by a "me, too" to someone else's post, but I'll say my peace anyway.

 

I've had a hard time selecting the dark side options on some of these conversations. They are just so dark, and so evil, that they almost make my skin crawl. But I see that as a good sign, that the game is challenging my comfort zone and making me think about what people in such a fascist regime might have to go through, making the tough choices on whether to do what's right or do what will help them achieve.

 

Since Grand Theft Auto, and even City of Villains, playing a "bad guy" has become a standard escapist element of games. Sure there are some people who lack the maturity or mental capacity to distinguish between fantasy and reality, but that's true whether the medium is gaming, movies, books, or television.

 

I find the Empire and the dark side are causing me to rethink whether it's worth it for me to play dark side. Shocking Vette goes against every fiber of my being. It's not something *I* would ever do. But it might be something my character would do. And he might be conflicted about it, since part of him is me.

 

I was going to write more about how the Empire shines a dark mirror on our own culture and on humanity at its worst, but that would take too long and get off track. Still, if we can understand that darkness in ourselves, maybe we can better deal with it in the real world when we're faced with bullies and coercion and lust for power above all else. (And, yes, I'm thinking of political ads here.)