Gear based PvP is amateur hour

[Greyfeld]

And how have you equipped this fresh 50?

 

He sounds naked to me.

 

Expertise is available before 50 if you want to be ready for the 50 bracket. If you choose to use sub-standard gear aimed at pve in the highest pvp queue then what do you expect?

 

I had 6 pvp bags waiting for me at level 50 (1 bag in my bank, 1,000 of each comm). When I opened them, I got 18 commendations, a handful of credits, and a whole lot of nothing else.

 

I didn't think about ripping expertise mods out of weapons, since you know... that's not their intended purpose. I'll be doing that for my next 50, but the fact that this is necessary just shows the glaring flaws in the current gear progression.

[Zedzorander]

Look at DAoC, Warhammer, (fill in PvP centric game here) and compare subscriber base to WoW, Star Wars TOR (Fill in PvE centric least common denominator L2P too much time on your hands chase-the-carrot game) and you will have your answer.

 

Shocker, they want to market to larger player base.

 

 

If this is the reason then they won't be in business long. This game doesn't have enough time to work out all its issues and problems before folks move on.

 

Warcraft has the lion's share of the gear grind mentality. And they've had 7 yrs to perfect it into the well-oiled machine that it is.

 

If TOR wants to make a living they have to change it up, not make it the same with a space theme.

[Brutem]

Only lazy people who don't like pvp claim it is gear based.

 

 

With your logic, similar could be said only those who need a crutch belive PVP gear is needed in games.

[Jestunhi]

I had 6 pvp bags waiting for me at level 50 (1 bag in my bank, 1,000 of each comm). When I opened them, I got 18 commendations, a handful of credits, and a whole lot of nothing else.

 

I didn't think about ripping expertise mods out of weapons, since you know... that's not their intended purpose. I'll be doing that for my next 50, but the fact that this is necessary just shows the glaring flaws in the current gear progression.

 

I agree that the progression could improve and I hope they re-implement the lvl 50 blue pvp gear.

 

But in the meantime you have a choice to prepare for lvl 50 pvp by either pveing to get pve gear or pvping to get pvp enhancements.

[Greyfeld]

I agree that the progression could improve and I hope they re-implement the lvl 50 blue pvp gear.

 

But in the meantime you have a choice to prepare for lvl 50 pvp by either pveing to get pve gear or pvping to get pvp enhancements.

 

The available options involve using items in a way that they weren't intended. It works, but that doesn't make it acceptable. When players have to "fix" a problem by going outside of the box, that should be Bioware's red flag; the cue that it's time for them to jump in and make changes.

 

I for one am rather tired of the same old tired gear grind. I speak from a position of having played WoW for 2 1/2 years (quitting a few months before the release of WotLK). It's just not fun to have to do the grind over and over again with each new character. Then, when you have your full set of gear, a new set is released, and the treadmill starts again.

 

I like the MMO gameplay, I like having a carrot to chase, I hate gear treadmills. There are plenty of other carrots they could dangle, but gear is the easiest and most cost-effective way for developers to churn out more "content." That's why they copy it from WoW. has nothing to do with it actually being good design.

[Jestunhi]

The available options involve using items in a way that they weren't intended. It works, but that doesn't make it acceptable. When players have to "fix" a problem by going outside of the box, that should be Bioware's red flag; the cue that it's time for them to jump in and make changes.

Enahncements aren't supposed to be transferable? They aren't intended to be removable? I regularly buy items either from pvp vendors or from the GTN to harvest their mods. That's why they added the ability (and the charge) to remove them.

 

I for one am rather tired of the same old tired gear grind. I speak from a position of having played WoW for 2 1/2 years (quitting a few months before the release of WotLK). It's just not fun to have to do the grind over and over again with each new character. Then, when you have your full set of gear, a new set is released, and the treadmill starts again.

If you don't want to "need" the top tier gear then don't play in the top tier queue. I'll happily support you if you want an /xp off command to keep yourself out of the 50 queue (and I may use it on an alt).

 

I like the MMO gameplay, I like having a carrot to chase, I hate gear treadmills. There are plenty of other carrots they could dangle, but gear is the easiest and most cost-effective way for developers to churn out more "content." That's why they copy it from WoW. has nothing to do with it actually being good design.

 

As you say, it's easy to churn out new gear and some players will actively collect it. Like it or not this game is a business. You may personally dislike it but given how much money has been invested in the game do you really think BW / EA doesn't know exactly who their target market is? It's unlikely to be the skill / twitch niche MMO market.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Jestunhi

[GameNirvana]

Look at DAoC, Warhammer, (fill in PvP centric game here) and compare subscriber base to WoW, Star Wars TOR (Fill in PvE centric least common denominator L2P too much time on your hands chase-the-carrot game) and you will have your answer.

 

Shocker, they want to market to larger player base.

 

Hardly a larger market. You're forgetting all the awesome PvP in FPS games.

 

Now look at the opportunity cost of them being so short-sighted and stupid. Look at all the good games out there with solid, competitive PvP - including the million dollar franchises that are Halo, CoD, Battlefield, etc...

 

Now look at how much more money these people would make if they would expand their game to attract more than just PvE, Grind hoards.

 

It's called being innovative, which TOR clearly is not. All they have done so far is make a storied game to compete with WoW in the niche that WoW found.

[Jestunhi]

Hardly a larger market. You're forgetting all the awesome PvP in FPS games.

 

Now look at the opportunity cost of them being so short-sighted and stupid. Look at all the good games out there with solid, competitive PvP - including the million dollar franchises that are Halo, CoD, Battlefield, etc...

 

Now look at how much more money these people would make if they would expand their game to attract more than just PvE, Grind hoards.

 

It's called being innovative, which TOR clearly is not. All they have done so far is make a storied game to compete with WoW in the niche that WoW found.

 

And how many of their current target market would this put off in exchange?

 

It's not a case of "do this and you will have more players" (which you cannot backup anyway), it's a case of "do this and you will be aiming for a different set of players".

 

 

 

I love twitch / skill based pvp, I'll be playing Planetside 2 when it comes out and am beta testing the new Tribes MMO. But this isn't one of those games. This is an MMORPG with all the associated leveling, gear, skills, etc.

[Abanoth]

Gear based PvP is like some twisted experiment where you take a guy and tell him, "let me you torture you every day, and after a set amount of time passes you get to torture someone else who is equally powerless against you."

[Razot]

Gear based PvP is like some twisted experiment where you take a guy and tell him, "let me you torture you every day, and after a set amount of time passes you get to torture someone else who is equally powerless against you."

 

Love the link in your sig lol..

[GameNirvana]

And how many of their current target market would this put off in exchange?

 

It's not a case of "do this and you will have more players" (which you cannot backup anyway), it's a case of "do this and you will be aiming for a different set of players".

 

 

 

I love twitch / skill based pvp, I'll be playing Planetside 2 when it comes out and am beta testing the new Tribes MMO. But this isn't one of those games. This is an MMORPG with all the associated leveling, gear, skills, etc.

 

I didn't mean to imply they would just steal all of those players from the truly competitive games. That's just not going to happen.

 

I think it's a mix of what each of us is saying. If they keep the grind in this game, they will retain the players that love grinding in MMO. If they add true PvP, then they will gain a large amount of players that want pure, competitive PvP. You can have one game achieve both aspects, but they just need to figure out how to do it.

 

If they do lose a portion of their current market, it would be the players that were angry about no grind in PvP. I'm willing to bet they would gain more true PvPers in their new hybrid market than they would lose from their current one.

Edited February 2, 2012 by GameNirvana

[Jestunhi]

I didn't mean to imply they would just steal all of those players from the truly competitive games. That's just not going to happen.

 

I think it's a mix of what each of us is saying. If they keep the grind in this game, they will retain the players that love grinding in MMO. If they add PvP, then they will gain a large amount of players that want pure, competitive PvP. You can have one game achieve both aspects, but they just need to figure out how to do it.

 

If they do lose a portion of their current market, it would be the players that were angry about no grind in PvP. I'm willing to bet they would gain more true PvPers in their new hybrid market than they would lose from their current one.

 

I'd certainly be interested in seeing some statistics which indicate the hardcore pvper is more common than the pver who is happy with progression in the current forms in the MMO scene (i.e. people willing to pay monthly, etc - simply giving me the number of players playing CS isn't the same).

 

:edit:

 

But yeah, there will be players who enjoy both and players who hate gear or twitch.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Jestunhi

[Greyfeld]

Enahncements aren't supposed to be transferable? They aren't intended to be removable? I regularly buy items either from pvp vendors or from the GTN to harvest their mods. That's why they added the ability (and the charge) to remove them.

 

If that was their original intended purpose, they would have just created a mod vendor like they did for every single planet in the game. The fact that they CAN be used in that way doesn't mean that they were INTENDED to be used that way. In fact, Bioware is currently on making it so that raid gear can have their mods popped out, but only re-inserted into the same type of gear (chest mods into chest gear, pants mods into pants gear, etc etc), which only solidifies my position of "unintended usage."

 

Please keep in mind that "unintended" doesn't mean "exploit," "game-breaking," or "shouldn't be done." It simply means that it is not the intended use when the items were placed within the game.

 

Of course, we can argue intent all day, and we'll never make any headway unless a developer actually pops in and tells us what they intended. But it just seems logical to me that a player-implemented workaround to the lack of pre-epic Expertise gear is definitely a sign of unintended usage.

 

If you don't want to "need" the top tier gear then don't play in the top tier queue. I'll happily support you if you want an /xp off command to keep yourself out of the 50 queue (and I may use it on an alt).

 

So, what if I want to pvp and raid? A lot of people do both, not to mention that this doesn't fix the plethora of issues plaguing world pvp.

 

As you say, it's easy to churn out new gear and some players will actively collect it. Like it or not this game is a business. You may personally dislike it but given how much money has been invested in the game do you really think BW / EA doesn't know exactly who their target market is? It's unlikely to be the skill / twitch niche MMO market.

 

Their target market is the same as WoW's. You're not going to kill WoW. It may die of its own age and stagnation, but you're not going to create a WoW-killer that emulates WoW. That's just a fact.

 

This game may last a few years (hell, SWG lasted what, 8 years?), but that won't have anything to do with pvp or other WoW-like features it implements. It'll have to do with casuals getting wrapped up in the Star Wars universe.

[SwampGas]

DAOC's skill based system.

 

Why more companies dont look at this is beyond me.

 

 

Negative, Ghostrider. I played DAOC for a good long while. Gear was most certainly an important factor. I must admit RR is a great mechanic, but honestly it is a reward just as much as expertise is. Hell, the term "Zerg " originated in DAOC as I recall. Furthermore, DAOC had WAY more CC than SWTOR ever will.

Edited February 2, 2012 by SwampGas

[Jestunhi]

If that was their original intended purpose, they would have just created a mod vendor like they did for every single planet in the game. The fact that they CAN be used in that way doesn't mean that they were INTENDED to be used that way. In fact, Bioware is currently on making it so that raid gear can have their mods popped out, but only re-inserted into the same type of gear (chest mods into chest gear, pants mods into pants gear, etc etc), which only solidifies my position of "unintended usage."

Your assumption that it's unintended is not inherently more correct than my assumption that it is.

 

Please keep in mind that "unintended" doesn't mean "exploit," "game-breaking," or "shouldn't be done." It simply means that it is not the intended use when the items were placed within the game.

I realise that, but I have yet to see BW or EA publish their intentions for pvp weapons.

 

Of course, we can argue intent all day, and we'll never make any headway unless a developer actually pops in and tells us what they intended. But it just seems logical to me that a player-implemented workaround to the lack of pre-epic Expertise gear is definitely a sign of unintended usage.

I appreciate your opinion, and that you recognize it to be an opinion (I do get bored of people stating "facts").

 

 

So, what if I want to pvp and raid? A lot of people do both, not to mention that this doesn't fix the plethora of issues plaguing world pvp.

you could have multiple characters (this *is* inended, I've heard BW talking about how much they want people to play alts) or you could suck it up and get some gear so you are on equal footing and skill comes more into play again.

 

 

Their target market is the same as WoW's. You're not going to kill WoW. It may die of its own age and stagnation, but you're not going to create a WoW-killer that emulates WoW. That's just a fact.

I'm not claiming they will, although this had/has potential. Big popular IP, RPG developer with a large fanbase breaking into MMOs. Sound familiar?

 

This game may last a few years (hell, SWG lasted what, 8 years?), but that won't have anything to do with pvp or other WoW-like features it implements. It'll have to do with casuals getting wrapped up in the Star Wars universe.

 

Debatable. Depends how BW run the game, I seriously doubt anyone can judge from 2 months of live how long the game will last or what it's mainstay playerbase will be over that timeline.

 

However I agree that the pvp system is unlikely to be a big pull as it's not a pvp game (and has never been marketed as such).

[Kolbenito]

Not that it matters but pretty sure "Zerg" comes from Starcraft. Specifically zerglings a unit of the Zerg which are cheap and you can produce in mass numbers. My nerd is showing, ahem.

 

Twitch doesn't work in MMOs because of the GCD (Global Cooldown). Where "skill" in MMO PVP comes from is knowing your opponents class and abilities. "He can't use his sprint for XX more seconds so I'm going to do ....".

 

"Skilled" PVP in this genre is absolutely about controlling the enemy and capitalizing on mistakes in cooldown usage and at the very highest levels it means leading them to a point where they are out of cooldowns so you can use yours. Movement doesn't matter half as much as knowing what to interrupt, what to LOS, what to CC, when to burst etc. Moving well is obviously important but it's like a fraction of your skill cap.

 

"I want to make him use his trinket on X so I can CC him full duration with Y".

 

There really isn't anything that translates between FPS and MMOs because these games are all about knowing when and why to do something. Swtor isn't mature enough to see this yet, but someday you will probably get to watch some Warzones with actual pro caliber players and see great examples of this.

 

 

Gear... Whole other topic. Aside from a horrible RNG bag system nothing really prevents anyone from getting full battlemasters but time and effort. It's something anyone can achieve so besides the extreme aggravation of not getting what you need form bags I'm not seeing the point of the debate. ANYONE can get the gear, we just need Bioware to put in a loot system that doesn't suck all the fun of PVP away while getting it.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kolbenito

[Abanoth]

Not that it matters but pretty sure "Zerg" comes from Starcraft. Specifically zerglings a unit of the Zerg which are cheap and you can produce in mass numbers. My nerd is showing, ahem.

 

 

And they come out before any other combat units, so a Zerger could also be one of those people who power-levels in the first week of a new game.

[houcksf]

I prefer the idea of PvP Gear. I want to have to play 100+ hours to get the best pvp gear. Maybe it's just me, but I remember the day where I had to work hard for everything.

[Greyfeld]

However I agree that the pvp system is unlikely to be a big pull as it's not a pvp game (and has never been marketed as such).

 

Which is pretty much why Bioware could do something completely different from the WoW gear treadmill and stand to gain much more than they lose. And one of the many reasons why it's so disappointing that all they did was rip off Blizzard.

[Greyfeld]

I prefer the idea of PvP Gear. I want to have to play 100+ hours to get the best pvp gear. Maybe it's just me, but I remember the day where I had to work hard for everything.

 

If all it required was time and hard work, that'd be one thing. But as it stands, this requires monotonous hours of getting beat on over and over again, while you watch helplessly as your attacks ineffectually scratch at people whose only redeeming factor is that they've been level 50 longer than you have.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Greyfeld

[Geney]

DAOC's skill based system.

 

Why more companies dont look at this is beyond me.

 

/agree

[SourD]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=260731

 

It looks like the devs agree with me.

 

 

Yeeeewoooo!

[Chaede]

The people that want skill-based PvP are the people that enjoy PvP for PvP's sake. The problem is that's a small minority of the customer base. Catering to us would be business suicide.

 

... I highly doubt it would be business suicide. I pvp because I enjoy it... Not for gear, not for ranks but because it is a fun and engaging break from pve at times.

 

If you are only playing a game to get rewarded and not for fun you shouldn't be playing it at all. Go to work to get rewarded, play a game to unwind, hang out with friends or the satisfaction of beating challenges. If gear rewards are the only reason you participating in content then you are probably playing the game for the wrong reasons.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Chaede

[SourD]

Funny how all opposed to a more even playing field dropped out, huh?

[SwampGas]

... I highly doubt it would be business suicide. I pvp because i enjoy it... Not for gear, not for ranks but because it is a fun and engaging break from pve at times.

 

If you are only playing a game to get rewarded and not for fun you shouldn't be playing it at all. Go to work to get rewarded, play a game to unwind, hang out with friends or the satisfaction of beating challenges. If gear rewards are the only reason you participating in content then you are probably playing the game for the wrong reasons.

 

/agree