So about that Operatives/Scoundrels nerf ...

[Evuke]

It doesn't seem that bad to me.

 

I'm rolling in almost all champion gear, and against an equally geared player I'm getting around 3.5k to 3.8K crits on Shoot First, about 1.3K non-crit.

 

So you think a 1.3k non crit on our highest damage ability is "not bad". and to get that ability we have to stealth, get behind the target and get in 4m melee range?

 

Seriously tracer missle / grav round does more damage than that, non-stealth, non-positional, 30m range........*** is the point of operatives exactly? We were supposed to be a burst damage class.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Evuke

[SoupyNuggs]

Consulars/Inquisitors countered Scoundrels well BEFORE the patch. This should not effect you unless you fell into the Bad Consular/Inquisitor or "killed by more than a Scoundrel/Operative" Consular/Inquisitor category. XD

 

Explain how a light armor wearing class (without guard/bubble already on them) counters a 3.5 second out-of-stealth stun, followed by 10-13k damage in 3 globals, without their trinket. Don't give me the "but we have terrible out of stealth mobility!" or "we're squishy you just need to have 3-5 other players around you!" There have been countless threads on this, and I won't go into it here.

 

Either way, I don't see this nerf getting reverted, nor am I worried about a consular/inquis nerf. Sustain me with your tears further, tho!

[Diomades]

So you think a 1.3k non crit on our highest damage ability is "not bad". and to get that ability we have to stealth, get behind the target and get in 4m melee range?

 

Seriously tracer missle / grav round does more damage than that, non-stealth, non-positional, 30m range........*** is the point of operatives exactly? We were supposed to be a burst damage class.

 

It's "not bad" because you should have at LEAST a 60% chance to crit on Shoot First, so the number of times you see only 1.3K white damage should be dramatically outnumbered by the times you see higher. Pop a Crit/Surge trinket and it's even better still. And that's not even factoring in the Ops/Scoundrels with Biochem.

 

Yes, Tracer Missle / Grav Round does crazy damage (especially when it crits, that **** takes me down a huge amount each hit), but that's an issue and should not be the norm.

[benedryl]

Pot calling the kettle black. Can I quote you on this and msg you when they don't nerf an entire BASE class (you don't even go into whether they're nerfing sorcs/sages vs. assassins/shadows).

 

Sorc/Sages obviously, they are the easiest class to PvP with, yet for some reason have the most people on these forums crying out for nerfs of other classes.

 

Like I said earlier, Bioware can nerf every other class into oblivion, but at what point do you realize it has more to do with a lack of skill than another class being overpowered.

[Monterone]

It doesn't seem that bad to me.

 

Yes, 1v1 we're far less capable than we were before. Yes, we still lack the movement other melee has. But we've traded high burst for a 5.5 second stunlock out of stealth, essentially.

 

I'm rolling in almost all champion gear, and against an equally geared player I'm getting around 3.5k to 3.8K crits on Shoot First, about 1.3K non-crit. They've got the Flechette Round dot on them ticking down damage. While they are getting up, Vital Shot and then Dirty Kick and follow up with a Pistol Whip/Sucker Punch flurry. If their trinket isn't up I can bring an unsupported target down below 50% before Dirty Kick fades.

 

If they do trinket on Shoot First, immediately punish them with a Dirty Kick.

 

If they're smart and trinket on Dirty Kick, pop your shield and pugnacity, hit them with a Tendon Blast and move in if they're ranged or kite in a circle at 10 meters, run through them and spin to get Flechette Round/Backblast or Upper Hand, play it defensively until their resolve fades and then hit them with a stun grenade to give you a chance to heal up. If it looks like you aren't going to make it through their resolve bar, vanish and reopen once it's faded and they're at your mercy.

 

Yes, it hurts. But it's still doable. Change your thinking a little. It's no longer about burst - it's about control. You need to be in command of the fight. There will be classes it's simply not doable against (Sorcerers/Consulars, for instance), but I don't really feel like I'm hurting as bad as I expected to be.

 

Man, I am so glad to see a player devise new tactics and accept the updated role. I LOVE that Scoundrels/OPs are now, as you said, about control and not burst damage, which used to often result in pretty much instant kills.

 

As a sorc, 1v1 fights are VERY MUCH about control of the encounter and being in command. All other classes hurt us greatly if they're left to do what they do best; and our own damage is mediocre at best.

 

But kiting and control can also be fun if you enjoy that play style. I am very happy that operatives will now have that opportunity to have a bit more similar play style to a sorc and have a bit more encounter control -- although OPs will still have significantly higher burst than us.

 

I, for one, am glad that JS does not fill full resolve now, it would simply make no sense for a 1.5 second stun.

[Diomades]

Explain how a light armor wearing class (without guard/bubble already on them) counters a 3.5 second out-of-stealth stun, followed by 10-13k damage in 3 globals, without their trinket. Don't give me the "but we have terrible out of stealth mobility!" or "we're squishy you just need to have 3-5 other players around you!" There have been countless threads on this, and I won't go into it here.

 

Either way, I don't see this nerf getting reverted, nor am I worried about a consular/inquis nerf. Sustain me with your tears further, tho!

 

Point out to me where I'm crying! I'm feeling pretty good about the class right now!

 

But you counter the 3 second (it wasn't 3.5 unless you factor in the getting up, that made it more like 4) out of stealth stun with your shield. If you have that up, the damage gets absorbed. Not to mention, the three second stun filled your resolve bar, so you should have trinketed (if you had it) during those 3 seconds to get up instantly.

 

Knock the scoundrel back, dot them and cast lightning at them to slow them, they can't get back to you quickly because they have no movement speed increase. If they do close distance with you, sprint to get more distance, rinse/repeat until they have to vanish and lick their wounds.

 

It's pretty simple!

[Stranger_LDR]

I really feel sorry for the scoundrels and operative that have no decent gear now.. Battlemaster opers/scoundrel are doing well.. but till then, welcome to the torture.

It's like pvping before lvl38-40

 

Not that I care much, my main is shadow, but Bioware customers from now on are xbox users only ^_^

 

Oh and here's my prediction to all those haters: Sorc nerf inc. Merc/Comm nerf inc. - like in the next patch I guess

[Diomades]

Man, I am so glad to see a player devise new tactics and accept the updated role. I LOVE that Scoundrels/OPs are now, as you said, about control and not burst damage, which used to often result in pretty much instant kills.

 

As a sorc, 1v1 fights are VERY MUCH about control of the encounter and being in command. All other classes hurt us greatly if they're left to do what they do best; and our own damage is mediocre at best.

 

But kiting and control can also be fun if you enjoy that play style. I am very happy that operatives will now have that opportunity to have a bit more similar play style to a sorc and have a bit more encounter control -- although OPs will still have significantly higher burst than us.

 

I, for one, am glad that JS does not fill full resolve now, it would simply make no sense for a 1.5 second stun.

 

Mind you, the burst damage is still pretty good! Pop a trinket and the PvP stim going into a big fight and you'll tear things up with... well, all of your attacks! But it's more on par with other classes when they do the same thing. We still lack movement (it's my main issue with the class right now), but otherwise I think we're in a good place!

 

Sorcs are really all about the sustained damage, not the burst. And they have a lot more defensives (the shield and movement increase) to toss around. Our shield is on a pretty high cooldown and doesn't absorb as much, so it's something I try to use sparingly unless I think I can win a fight with it.

 

If JS or SF filled the resolve bar and only knocked down for 1.5 seconds, I'd simply not spec into it and just use Dirty Kick early in the fight, the talent would be more detrimental than helpful. But as it stands, it allows for some pretty good chained CC!

 

I think most of the Ops/Scoundrels that will have issue with this are the ones that are still in the mindset of 1v1ing and are going to have to change tactics into teamplay to go for healers, targets without full resolve and assisting in teamkills to get the most out of these changes, honestly.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Diomades

[Evuke]

Sorc/Sages obviously, they are the easiest class to PvP with, yet for some reason have the most people on these forums crying out for nerfs of other classes.

 

This is the problem you get when 60% of the playerbase are all playing the one class, and probably 80% of the bads play them too because they're by far the easiest class to play.....so you end up with the vast majority of nerf cries being about the sorc/sages counter classes.

[SoupyNuggs]

 

But you counter the 3 second (it wasn't 3.5 unless you factor in the getting up, that made it more like 4) out of stealth stun with your shield. If you have that up, the damage gets absorbed. Not to mention, the three second stun filled your resolve bar, so you should have trinketed (if you had it) during those 3 seconds to get up instantly.

 

If you read my original post, I assume no trinket and no guard/bubble up on myself. Your counter requires both of these requirements to be fulfilled, which, like I said, is a stupid condition and has been debated over and over on these forums.

 

Please read before commenting next time, glad you're happy with the changes tho.

[ranlaen]

So with this recent nerf, now Operatives basically do burst damage equal to, or less, than other classes, only without the utility, the survivability or the sustained DPS.

 

My highest crit with my opener is now 3.7k on a much lesser gear player (with Relic and Expertise Buff)!! It has an average crit of 3.2k on decently geared players, with a normal damage of 1.2k lol

 

We have almost no chance to kill any equal geared/skill player under any situation, unless the target is is a complete tool or was already tenderized by someone else and we open on them while they are at 30% HP.

 

The ONLY way to do some decent burst (of around 4k ish with opener) is now is to drop your professions, take up Biochem and roll with full Biochem buffs (plus Relic/Expertise). And even then our burst will still be lower than some classes that use also such buffs lol.

 

What a joke.

the joke is most OP/scoundrel actually clapping due to the increased stun and having a field day only you are claiming otherwise .The joker is you sir thank you!

[YanksfanJP]

The only reason why I rolled this stupid character is because it was claimed to be a burst class.

 

Translation: "The only reason I rolled this stupid character is because I wanted to be able to kill people without them having the ability to fight back."

[The_Haro]

OPs still do awesome opener damage. And I don't want to hear about lack of utility. I play a Jedi Shadow in full champion gear, and if I'm not at 100% health with my cc break off cd I still get to experience being unable to move an inch while an op crits me down to nothing. Stop complaining about not being able to 3 shot people, your class was blatantly overpowered. Get over it.

[Diomades]

If you read my original post, I assume no trinket and no guard/bubble up on myself. Your counter requires both of these requirements to be fulfilled, which, like I said, is a stupid condition and has been debated over and over on these forums.

 

Please read before commenting next time, glad you're happy with the changes tho.

 

Well yes, if you don't have your bubble up, of course you're going to get torn apart. But there's no excuse to NOT have your bubble up. It's only, what, 20 seconds that it should be down at a time? So it seems kinda silly to say that "Oh, I die all the time to Scoundrels when I am not using one of my abilities". Of course you do! It's a really powerful ability!

 

It'd be like me saying "without using Shoot First, we'd never kill you." Why wouldn't I use Shoot First? It's a powerful ability!

 

Your shield should be up at all times. If you're getting caught by a Scoundrel with your pants down with it off for no good reason, it means you've had somebody else attacking you to assist in the kill and you can't just say that the Scoundrel did it to you alone.

[Archelles]

You're delusional if you think they aren't.

 

Any Consular/Inquisitor that couldn't survive a burst from an Operative at 100% hp is just bad at this game, nerfing another class won't change that.

 

o rrly? so you are saying that if i cant survive 3 hits im bad? all the Operatives that are QQing rite now are just pissed because its not a 3 button class anymore and you actually have to work to get a kill. i play as Assassin and i need to use at least 5 to 6 different skills(Voltaic Slash, Maul, Assassinate, Force Slow, Low slash, Discharge and more) to do well every fight unless its someone really bad/under-geared. Learn to adapt or just admit you are bad and rolled a super easy class that required zero skill...literally.

[SoupyNuggs]

Well yes, if you don't have your bubble up, of course you're going to get torn apart. But there's no excuse to NOT have your bubble up. It's only, what, 20 seconds that it should be down at a time? So it seems kinda silly to say that "Oh, I die all the time to Scoundrels when I am not using one of my abilities". Of course you do! It's a really powerful ability!

 

It'd be like me saying "without using Shoot First, we'd never kill you." Why wouldn't I use Shoot First? It's a powerful ability!

 

Your shield should be up at all times. If you're getting caught by a Scoundrel with your pants down with it off for no good reason, it means you've had somebody else attacking you to assist in the kill and you can't just say that the Scoundrel did it to you alone.

 

Well first let me say that as a SHADOW and not a sage, I don't even have shield. :] I could stop there, but let me step into the shoes of a sage for a moment...

 

In a fierce team battle at middle in Civil War or doors in Voidstar, it's far from rare to see sages put their bubble on allied players, hence leaving themselves vulnerable to *gasp* OP scoundrel/op burst! Your analogy is flawed in that regard; not like you're going to use Shoot First on someone and then switch targets to burst someone else down. All of your burst abilities are going into 1 target and, if that target is a light armor wearing class with no trinket+no bubble, it's going to die in that opening out of stealth stun. The devs realized this, and it has been addressed.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've survived those openers whenever I have my trinket, and I never really complained otherwise about your class. It's just nicer now that you can't 3-shot me.

[Supesdude]

Hi I'm a consular, and victim of multiple scoundrel/operative 3-shot openers (running 605 expertise), and I just wanted to say: your tears are delicious!

 

 

If you have 605 expertise and you're getting 3 shot by a op you're doing something terribly wrong. I don't have near that (likely inflated) number and not once has an op come close to 1, 2, or 3 shotting me as a sorcerer.

[Treplos]

It doesn't seem that bad to me.

 

I'm rolling in almost all champion gear, and against an equally geared player I'm getting around 3.5k to 3.8K crits on Shoot First, about 1.3K non-crit. They've got the Flechette Round dot on them ticking down damage. While they are getting up, Vital Shot and then Dirty Kick and follow up with a Pistol Whip/Sucker Punch flurry. If their trinket isn't up I can bring an unsupported target down below 50% before Dirty Kick fades.

 

If they do trinket on Shoot First, immediately punish them with a Dirty Kick.

 

If they're smart and trinket on Dirty Kick, pop your shield and pugnacity, hit them with a Tendon Blast and move in if they're ranged or kite in a circle at 10 meters, run through them and spin to get Flechette Round/Backblast or Upper Hand, play it defensively until their resolve fades and then hit them with a stun grenade to give you a chance to heal up. If it looks like you aren't going to make it through their resolve bar, vanish and reopen once it's faded and they're at your mercy.

 

Yes, it hurts. But it's still doable. Change your thinking a little. It's no longer about burst - it's about control. You need to be in command of the fight. There will be classes it's simply not doable against (Sorcerers/Consulars, for instance), but I don't really feel like I'm hurting as bad as I expected to be.

 

Only half-way through that scenario you get CC'ed, Knockbacked, or, or, and get decimated. while you just blew all your hard CC. GG.

 

On the other hand, other classes can crit with non-conditional abilities more than we crit with our openers, while they have more CC, more surv, and more utility. Why exactly play an Operative/Scoundrel over, say, a Sin/Shadow? They now outclass us with in pretty much everything.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Treplos

[Diomades]

Well first let me say that as a SHADOW and not a sage, I don't even have shield. :] I could stop there, but let me step into the shoes of a sage for a moment...

 

In a fierce team battle at middle in Civil War or doors in Voidstar, it's far from rare to see sages put their bubble on allied players, hence leaving themselves vulnerable to *gasp* OP scoundrel/op burst! Your analogy is flawed in that regard; not like you're going to use Shoot First on someone and then switch targets to burst someone else down. All of your burst abilities are going into 1 target and, if that target is a light armor wearing class with no trinket+no bubble, it's going to die in that opening out of stealth stun. The devs realized this, and it has been addressed.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've survived those openers whenever I have my trinket, and I never really complained otherwise about your class. It's just nicer now that you can't 3-shot me.

 

The shield only has a short cooldown, like 5 seconds or so. It's the debuff that lasts 20. So it's not an excuse not to keep it up on yourself!

 

As for Assassins, you have a lot of defensives that can really ruin a scoundrels day. You have a 100% immunity to tech and force that you can pop defensively, your sprint to get distance, and plenty of abilities similar to the Scoundrel. Your out of stealth burst is also higher. Also not that hard, but it's a bit more of an even fight than what Sorcs put up!

[Diomades]

Only half-way through that scenario you get CC'ed, Knockbacked, or, or, and get decimated. while you just blew all your hard CC. GG.

 

On the other hand, other classes can crit with non-conditional abilities more than we crit with our openers, while they have more CC, more surv, and more utility. Why exactly play an Operative/Scoundrel over, say, a Sin/Shadow? They now outclass us with in pretty much everything.

 

Adapt? I don't know, I played some Warzones and I was doing fine.

[Coldin]

*sigh* Now people are saying Operatives are about control?

 

That's impossible when one mez can only be used out of combat and while in stealth, the in-combat mez only lasts 8 seconds, on a minute cooldown. Stun is only 4 seconds (roots scoundrels to use it) and has a 45 second cooldown. And the slow only has a 10 meter range, so can't be use on anyone that already gained distance.

 

Plus, operatives and scoundrels don't have much in the way of damage mitigation. At least nowhere near what Sages and Assassins get.

[Treplos]

Well first let me say that as a SHADOW and not a sage, I don't even have shield. :] I could stop there, but let me step into the shoes of a sage for a moment...

 

In a fierce team battle at middle in Civil War or doors in Voidstar, it's far from rare to see sages put their bubble on allied players, hence leaving themselves vulnerable to *gasp* OP scoundrel/op burst! Your analogy is flawed in that regard; not like you're going to use Shoot First on someone and then switch targets to burst someone else down. All of your burst abilities are going into 1 target and, if that target is a light armor wearing class with no trinket+no bubble, it's going to die in that opening out of stealth stun. The devs realized this, and it has been addressed.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've survived those openers whenever I have my trinket, and I never really complained otherwise about your class. It's just nicer now that you can't 3-shot me.

 

No operative could 3 shot anyone else of equal gear level before, even without a bubble. It was just not possible to get those numbers past 1.1.

 

Now however, Operatives are just a bad joke. I am sure most of you are laughing it up secretly and you know it.

[Reldan]

The reports from the PTR were that 1.1.1 had the 1.5s stun still giving full resolve. Since it's almost impossible to test these things for ourselves because of how the PTR is set up and Bioware doesn't like being clear in their patch notes, a lot of the OP complaints were based around this misinformation, which would have rendered Jarring Strike useless if true.

 

That said, I posted a few days ago in the PTR forum that the community was not going to be happy about this "nerf" because it wasn't going to fix the main stunlock/lucky-burst problem. If you're getting killed by an OP inside a stunlock it's because they're using Cloaking Screen (2 min cd) to double HS you and they're getting double crits for massive burst. -20% to the base just means that you take 9k instead of 11k off of two attacks in 1.5s, but you're still getting rocked when this happens.

 

The problem has always been that HS shouldn't be usable twice in an opener, and HS shouldn't crit for as much as it does. A lot of the OPs who are actually at 50 and actually play PvP agree, but Bioware didn't listen, and the people playing other classes for whatever reason just don't understand what it is that OPs are doing that's making them die and assume that Bioware's solution was THE solution.

 

So yeah - great solution. They nerf OPs dps in PvE, nerf Lethality OPs in general, and all to still not fix a purely PvP problem - it's not fun to get killed while having zero control over your character. They should have left Acid Blade and HS base damage alone and fixed the HS crit damage and multiple use instead. Leave Jarring Strike alone as well, since without a double-HS you couldn't kill somebody during the 3s stun anyways and the full resolve at least let them fight back once they got back up.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Reldan

[Treplos]

Adapt? I don't know, I played some Warzones and I was doing fine.

 

I am sorry. I will adapt, but I think I forgot my Sprint and Force Leap at home.

Dude, you just blew all your CDs and Vanish on one person, and they knocked you back / CC'ed you / Snare you. What adapt? You are just a sitting duck.

[Crenssi]

Too many whiners and "PvP" movies out there,

Stims [check]

Adrenaline [check]

Exp buff [check]

Tab cycle into the lowest max hp sorcerer in warzone [check]

Play some dubsteb [check]

Cut the movie after ambush/backstab/fisting [check]

 

What they don't show is

 

Leap pinned/stunned by marauder [check]

Def screen "bubble" down in 1 hit [check]

Dodge not really dodging anything [check]

Pulled out of vanish immediately afterwards by dots / aoe [check]

Can't flashbang thanks to resolve bar, taking too much dmg to wait [check]

 

Now the game breaks the laws of physics and planets align and you manage to get the marauder in pretty low hp;

Marauder laughs at you and gets 99% damage reduction for 10 seconds since hey, HE is the melee class [check]

Marauder vanishes after 99% dmg shield ends [check]

You use your gap close.... oh wait we're not a melee class we dont need one :-) [check]

 

SPEND NEXT 28 SECONDS IN COMBAT DOING JACK **** SINCE GAME DOESN'T LET YOU STEALTH [CHECK CHECK CHECK]