So about that Operatives/Scoundrels nerf ...

[Dralor]

Just give up on concealment, the spec is a joke now. They overnerfed hidden strike pretty bad which hurts the class as a whole but you are still going to do more damage with lethality, and overall be a bigger contribution with medicine.

 

On the bright side we get to look forward to the heavy handed and poorly tested nerf bat coming down on the other broken specs in the future.

[Evuke]

as sorcs/sages (most played class in the game) counter class we can expect nothing but nerfs until we are completely useless, just save yourselves the bother and re-roll.

[Sikihiro]

before patch my another friend vanguard would always get devastated by smuggler without a chance (smuggler had more than half hp sometimes 70%+)

after patch he actually won duel with 2k hp left

seems pretty balanced to me

[Nnekk]

A burst class without burst. The only reason why I rolled this stupid character is because it was claimed to be a burst class. Now other classes can do the same if not more burst then me and they don't have to be stealth and behind a target to do it.

 

Now I'm forced to PvP as a healer or in a not PvP damage spec that provides no benefit to any warzone what so ever. Which means not only do I have to change my whole approach to the game, I have to change my gear and expect to under perform if I'm not healing.

 

I'm pissed.

 

READS:

 

I used to WTFPWN everyone until my profession got re-balanced in-line with what other professions were doing and were meant to be doing.

 

I'm sad I no longer insta-kill others. I loved the feeling of being uber even thogh my skills were, average, at best, as a general MMO player.

 

I may have to choose another COTM to return myself to my former glory.

[Okinky]

Lots of detailed posts in defense of OPs and Scoundrels, almost nothing in terms of offense.

There might have been one in the above heap of dumb comments, but overall it seems that those that like the nerf just posted exaggerated responses that required little to no thought. Then when confronted with an intelligent post, they replied that it really was just "QQ" and that now they have to play the game like everyone else. When really, they can't, because they don't have what everyone else has now.

 

But then again these are MMO forums, and how could I expect anything else.

[Dralor]

Lots of detailed posts in defense of OPs and Scoundrels, almost nothing in terms of offense.

There might have been one in the above heap of dumb comments, but overall it seems that those that like the nerf just posted exaggerated responses that required little to no thought. Then when confronted with an intelligent post, they replied that it really was just "QQ" and that now they have to play the game like everyone else. When really, they can't, because they don't have what everyone else has now.

 

But then again these are MMO forums, and how could I expect anything else.

 

Pretty much, even though it did need a nerf they went a little too far. Will see which class/spec the people on the forums try to crucify next.

[Blue]

Yeap this sucks. Getting ***** over and over...

[Acindo]

I really feel sorry for the scoundrels and operative that have no decent gear now.. Battlemaster opers/scoundrel are doing well.. but till then, welcome to the torture.

It's like pvping before lvl38-40

 

So it's fun? Seems like your contradicting yourself a little?

 

If you can't have fun in 10-49 PvP before 38 you are bad.

 

I personally start to PvP on all classes at 10.

 

Looking forward to getting my Operative 50. I started him AFTER they announced the nerf, because I knew it really wouldn't be as bad as everyone cried about.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Acindo

[Sikihiro]

Lots of detailed posts in defense of OPs and Scoundrels, almost nothing in terms of offense.

There might have been one in the above heap of dumb comments, but overall it seems that those that like the nerf just posted exaggerated responses that required little to no thought. Then when confronted with an intelligent post, they replied that it really was just "QQ" and that now they have to play the game like everyone else. When really, they can't, because they don't have what everyone else has now.

 

But then again these are MMO forums, and how could I expect anything else.

 

look at http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=256106&page=6 at the end

[TheMickey]

Ops aren't killing people with similar gear in 3 hits, so that is beside the point.

 

And wow, 6 skills, that must be really difficult. You do realize that against a competent opponent Ops/Scoundrels will have to use a similar number of skills to win that fight.

 

Just because you don't offer a challenge, doesn't mean people of the same class don't.

 

lol i wasn't going to get involved, i was more reading this just to see how ops were feeling about the changes. but on this i wanted to add. first, he said "and more" but if you really wanna know...

 

when fighting a good op (i do mean good, not some nub you can just roll over like a sleepy hutt) i really use all the following abilities in the fight:

 

project, force speed, force slow, slow time, tele throw, kinetic ward, mind crush, force potency, force stun, spinning kick, force breach, whirling blow and probably a force wave. doubt i'll bother with a double strike but it happens occasionally. then defensively at some point i'll most definitely use reslience, force of will, at least 1 relic and deflection. also a medpack and battle rediness for the heal. i also have a grenades as a cybertech ready, either the firestorm for damage if i think it's going well and a sludge applicator if i need to get away in a pinch. in which case i'd also be looking at a force cloak which may fail anyway if resilence isn't ready and he's got a bleed on me again. in the event it's going very well and he runs i'll need to force pull him back.

 

that's not just a list of abilties, that's really all the crap i've gotta hit to fight a properly geared and skilled op, and it often doesn't help. so dont' ever pretend you're silly op rotation is "complicated"

 

currently valor rank 52, full sets of both tank and dps tier 2 pvp gear. in full buffs and the tank set i run a little over 20k, 21.8k if i feel like wasting endurance stim on pvp which i rarely do. the main disconnect between me and the ops that i actually go up against frequently is going to be the difference in champ vs battlemaster sets as there are about 3 really good, well known ones on our server.

 

 

 

my 2 creds on the change: it feels much better that i'm not getting killed so quickly that i dont really get a chance to fight back. as it was i just stood up from the opener and ran away with cloak/resil/force speed. and came back on my own terms. even with my quite meaty HP pool pre-patch ops could get me to a good 60% before stun was over and take me to dangerous levels by the time i'd really even reacted. however, there's little to no change in a 1v1 scenario, these ops still will kill me if i dont run and pick up the battle under better conditions. the stuns have gotten worse than before, now they can time them in a smart manner and just make me stand there most of the fight, there simply aren't enough breaks for them all.

 

what this change has effectively done imo is made no difference 1v1 but allowed healers a chance to do something. as it was before.... no... by the time they noticed a need for a heal and changed targets the person was dead. ops are really the only class i personally have trouble with.

 

as a tank i take a while to kill things but through smart play most are a joke. ops were the only class i "feared" and next would be some BHs but i dont' accuse them of any OPness and assassins a close 3rd after them. the sorc QQ threads make me laugh as i find their pvp ability as dps to be a joke. and sith warriors are just full of problems imo... the only ones that i dont just see as free valor are the ones that... i dont know the spec but they have a very strong force choke that can actually do a huge chunk of HP before it's over. srry dont know what that spec is.

[Selindri]

A stun that lasts the duration of the global cooldown is one of the most useless ideas for a stealth opener I've ever seen in my life. The problem with this class isn't the burst damage, that's what stealth classes ARE FOR. The problem is that crit damage over all classes as well as its multipliers and mitigation factors need to be completely redone for PvP.

[Anthiel]

You're just awful if you don't realize your class actually got buffed.

 

or maby your stupid and just think they did

[VertisReaper]

you guys got a massive utility buff, stop crying.

[kalexkhan]

The fact that bioware doesnt seem to have the ability to scale the damage down at the higher end of use cases (ops with top gear, and loaded up with Stimson and buffs against people probably with low expertise) is alarming to me. This is also a pvp nerf that effects pve, where ops are hurting already at anyway....

 

Blanket nerfs are usually bad, specially when doing so with large percentages. but at this point, I'm going to assume their tool kit doesn't have fine scalpels to really go in and target things in such a detailed way.

 

Alls I can say is, everybody get ready for more!

Edited February 1, 2012 by kalexkhan

[Jimra]

My newly sprung lvl 50 PT is now far superior to my full Champ Op. Dmg against an equally geared oppo is pretty laughable, due to the whining I think we are balanced off opening up against an under geared player rather than equally geared. I usually open for about 1.2k now which almost makes it pointless. Usually takes the opener and a BS just to take down a sorc's bubble.

 

Ops are good if you want a challenge, but speaking as someone who has another 50 to fall back on they are definitely a second rate class.

 

Oh and don't even bother with endgame PvE, you'll literally get laughed at.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Jimra

[Atamosk]

I havent played this class nor had much interaction with them, however if I were you i would just be suggesting that the playstyle be changed and your burst damage not be increased.

.

 

I dont think burst is the answer and im sure bioware will address the problem

[Atamosk]

how does anyone even have proof that they are doing poorly in pve. if somoen can provide me with a logical emperical way of deciding who is "good" at dps in a pve situation then i will shut up, but nowhere have i found that, but i hear people claim that dps is bad in pve. how can you tell. please enlighten me (no really do it no sarcasm) Edited February 1, 2012 by Atamosk

[Exitusx]

I'm honestly not feeling that much of the nerfs. I even made a prediction earlier last month that Flechette Round is likely going to get nerfed somewhere. But I expected it to turn into an enemy target debuff rather than a self buff, because it made no sense that you can benefit from the armor penetration on targets whose armor you didn't just shred to tiny bits. But at least this way we can switch targets, and doing the math out on heavy armored targets, we actually do 7% less damage. I knew flechette round was going to get a nerf so I don't really care about that. It's sad we now do less sustained damage overall now, which in pve mattered a bit more, but Oh well, I'm a pvper so it isn't that big of deal.

 

The stun nerf worried me at first, but then I heard about the resolve thing so now idc.

 

Now the Shoot First nerf was kind of dumb imho.. It is our best burst move and the highest I've seen people do with it with relics up is like 4k, and this requires us to be both in stealth and behind the target, where other classes can rip out 4k crits with no real requirement without really trying. If the problem is that people were dying too fast when we opened, then Bioware needs to find a way to kind of bring each class to an equal level so it isn't redundant to play one class over another. But that isn't really the real beef I have. The real beef I have with the Shoot First nerf is that now the gap between Back Blast and Shoot First is closer, which is kind if redundant.

 

all in all they wanted to fix the fact we were killing people way too fast in pvp with our burst, so if they wanted to nerf shoot first, w/e I won't complain that much. But they at least need to either bring other classes on par as well, or up our sustained damage to make up for it and make us more of a dps use in pve, just my 2 cents

[Exitusx]

So After testing the new patch out, although my gameplay isn't totally broken, and hardly noticed on bad players, I am noticing some significant changes (not in a good way).

 

Due to the reduced armor penetration I'm seeing that my Sucker Punch, Quick Shot, Blaster Whip and Back Blast all deal anywhere between 150-250 less damage than before (non-crit) each (depending on the class). Honestly, I kind of knew that Flechette Round was going to get nerfed. Packing a bleed nearly as strong as Vital Shot and that much armor penetration onto an ability that doesn't respect the global CD AND can be used in stealth is quite a mouthful. When I explained it to my guildies they were shocked how much was just jampacked into a single move.

 

But when I explained Shoot First to them this was their general response: "Why did they nerf that?"

 

Nerfing Shoot First by that much I feel is going too far. I would accept a 10% nerf, but the fact we are losing out on potentially 1000 damage is just a really harsh nerf, especially when other classes could deal the same amount of damage of shoot first at any given time, with no stealth or position requirement. I just feel that it's way too one-sided now.

[Treplos]

So After testing the new patch out, although my gameplay isn't totally broken, and hardly noticed on bad players, I am noticing some significant changes (not in a good way).

 

Due to the reduced armor penetration I'm seeing that my Sucker Punch, Quick Shot, Blaster Whip and Back Blast all deal anywhere between 150-250 less damage than before (non-crit) each (depending on the class). Honestly, I kind of knew that Flechette Round was going to get nerfed. Packing a bleed nearly as strong as Vital Shot and that much armor penetration onto an ability that doesn't respect the global CD AND can be used in stealth is quite a mouthful. When I explained it to my guildies they were shocked how much was just jampacked into a single move.

 

But when I explained Shoot First to them this was their general response: "Why did they nerf that?"

 

Nerfing Shoot First by that much I feel is going too far. I would accept a 10% nerf, but the fact we are losing out on potentially 1000 damage is just a really harsh nerf, especially when other classes could deal the same amount of damage of shoot first at any given time, with no stealth or position requirement. I just feel that it's way too one-sided now.

 

 

 

I will tell you why. Our whole damage rotation got nerfed, as I've said in other posts:

 

> 20% damage nerf to Hidden Strike.

 

> 50% nerf to Jarring knowckdown duration.

 

> 40% nerf to Acid Blade Armor Penetration, which not only means Hidden Strike got a TRIPLE nerf, but also BackStab got nerfed, because Acid Blade only works on these 2 skills.

 

> On top of all that, due to the Acid Blade ArmPen nerf, every other skill (i.e. Shiv, Lacerate, etc) used within 15s of the opener also got nerfed and will be hitting for less.

 

The whole dam rotation got nerfed.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Treplos

[slapslapslap]

So with this recent nerf, now Operatives basically do burst damage equal to, or less, than other classes, only without the utility, the survivability or the sustained DPS.

 

My highest crit with my opener is now 3.7k on a much lesser gear player (with Relic and Expertise Buff)!! It has an average crit of 3.2k on decently geared players, with a normal damage of 1.2k lol

 

We have almost no chance to kill any equal geared/skill player under any situation, unless the target is is a complete tool or was already tenderized by someone else and we open on them while they are at 30% HP.

 

The ONLY way to do some decent burst (of around 4k ish with opener) is now is to drop your professions, take up Biochem and roll with full Biochem buffs (plus Relic/Expertise). And even then our burst will still be lower than some classes that use also such buffs lol.

 

What a joke.

 

You mean the time that other players spend on the ground is reduced by 1/2 without any resolve being built up at all? OH NO, I wish we had 2 more stuns to finish them off if we haven't already... oh... wait... WE DO!

 

Aww isn't that cute... they nerfed us in a very *** backwards way making us more powerful than before IF you know how resolve works.

Edited February 2, 2012 by slapslapslap

[Exitusx]

You mean the time that other players spend on the ground is reduced by 1/2 without any resolve being built up at all? OH NO, I wish we had 2 more stuns to finish them off if we haven't already... oh... wait... WE DO!

 

Aww isn't that cute... they nerfed us in a very *** backwards way making us more powerful than before IF you know how resolve works.

 

Only the stuns are more powerful now, which is why I'm okay with K.O getting changed. The only reason I was first upset at the K.O nerf was because I knew about resolve, and it wasn't mentioned in the patch notes that it doesn't affect it anymore. Because the idea of a 1.5 second stun setting off resolve is just silly. But it doesn't, so it's okay.

 

But overall our entire class is weaker. As I said before, I knew Flechette Round was going to get nerfed because of how much was jampacked into it. But the Shoot First nerf ON TOP OF the Flechette Round nerf is just going way, way too far. They kind of just whipped out the nerf bat and started swinging away not knowing what they would be hitting and where it would be going. Not only is Shoot First not much better than a Back Blast that offers Upper Hand at this point, it cannot not keep up with other class abilities that can deal significantly more damage at any given time (with a short CD). Before the nerf our non-crits were already significantly weaker because we needed to crit with the Underdog talent for it to be noticeable, so the average non-crit was about 1.7k on a decently geared player, where those other abilities that will deal 4k on critical hits would still deal around 2.5k - 3k non-crit. So basically the only way Shoot First was even on-par with other classes was because of it's increased crit damage to match up. Now that's totally gone, 4k crits will now become 3.2k crits, which I would be okay with if other classes weren't still doing significantly more without that much more effort

[Exitusx]

On top of that, the game hasn't even been out that long and there really aren't enough statistics, let alone Operative/Scoundrel players, for them to make such a drastic change this early. Something I think they can do to make up for it at least is increase our sustained damage just a little in some way, this way we at least aren't worse in PvE settings.