Do you support a Mac OS X client in Star Wars the Old Republic?

[Wolfeisberg]

Actually there are surveys that show the population of Mac subscribers at about 28%. But even using the general market share of 10%, it's still double the numbers you've used.

 

So yes, it's an absolute no-brainer ROI.... the "MBA's" the decided not to do it are worth their weight in sawdust at this point.

 

We still don't know how many people are willing to play the game but not with Windows/Bootcamp over the amount of players willing to play the game with Windows/bootcamp. You definitely don't know that, I don't know that, but EA more then likely has data to show about how many customers they would gain with a Mac OS version. They probably determined the amount of subscribers they would gain is not worth the money spent on creating and supporting the Mac OS, at least not at this time. It might take a year or so before they get to that point, which is what they did with Warhammer Online when they released the beta version for Mac OS.

[Wicari]

Blizzard seems to think it is closer to 6-8% http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3789699020

 

Or you can use someone else's numbers

 

http://www.technologytell.com/apple/91032/os-and-browser-market-shares-for-february-2012/

Edited March 17, 2012 by Wicari

[Sengar]

I'd love to play on my Macbook Pro. Right now on travel I am unable to play, as I do not boot camp.

[Lethality]

If you haven't noticed that I specifically stated coming from a perspective of a high end gamer. Thats great that the Mac does everything you want it to do, but for me the Mac is a very limited machine that I can't upgrade without buying a whole new $2000+ every 3 years computer, that is what I mean by limited. Every 3 years I am putting in about $500 to upgrade my computer because of high end gaming.

 

High end gaming is one of many things I do with my computer, and my computer can do everything a Mac can do, and for a significant fraction of the cost.

 

Only a fool interested in high end gaming would buy a Mac, unless they want to spend $2000+ every 3 to 4 years to keep up with the high end gaming.

 

What is there to open my eyes to? I am a high end gamer, and the Mac is extremely limited for high end gaming. There is nothing a Mac can do that my PC can't, so I am not missing out on anything, but if I switched to a Mac I would be missing the feature of upgrading my own computer to keep up with the demands of high end gaming. It is you who needs to open your eyes.

 

Let me spell it out more clearly for you:

 

1) MMORPGs do not fall into the category of "high end gaming." Especially TOR.

2) There is already precedent by the market leader of supporting the Mac day and date with the Windows version.

3) I didn't buy my Mac as a gaming machine, and I never, ever would. It's foolish. I do other things with my Mac - I make money with it, I stay connected with family in ways Windows can only dream of, and I also play some games. Up until TOR, there was never an issue.

 

You're a hobbyist/enthusiast, not the mainstream player. You're a "high end gamer" whatever that is... got it. PC is your choice - Windows rules, and all of that. So why are you wasting my time and yours even commenting in this thread? What exactly are you gaining?

 

I'm all ears.

[julusp]

DEVS: Can you please at least introduce passive support for Mac OS / Linux ? Only thing you have to do is optimize the game for Windows.

 

I have made an unofficial port (wrapper) which allows to run SWTOR on Mac OS X (Snow Leopard, Lion) http://portingteam.com/index.php/files/file/7187-star-wars-the-old-republic/ (for others, the wrapper is provided as is, don't blame me if your account gets banned, or something (happened once for Linux WoW players using wine). The SWTOR is kinda playable, but expect issues)

 

But still we are experiencing the same issues as some windows users reported here, but their are affecting us in greater scale.

For example: the horrible loading times (Nar Shaada takes about 10 minutes to load, but in most cases it leads to disconnect and return to character selection screen).

[Lethality]

Blizzard seems to think it is closer to 6-8% http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3789699020

 

That doesn't even match the general market share! That is not "Blizzard's official data and statement" that's random tech support guy 42329034.

 

I wish I could find it now, but there was a post on the previous WoW forums talking about this exact issue and another Blizzard (community manager) provided info that the percentage of Mac WoW players was disproportionately higher than the general market share... and Mac players subscribed longer and had fewer technical issues. So they wouldn't give numbers, but that's more in line.

 

In addition, WoW Insider, the largest independent WoW site by far, did a survey a year or so a go with about 40,000 responses and 28% of those indicated they were playing on a Mac. That's a significant sample size that in fact means something.

 

Finally, on my own site Ask A Jedi, I asked TOR players if they would play on a Mac... mind you, this is a game thast wasn't announced for the Mac nor is the site a Mac site in any way... it's a TOR site. My results were similarly high:

 

http://www.askajedi.com/2011/07/23/blue-milk-cereal-would-you-play-tor-on-a-mac-if-you-could/

 

And when you wrap all of that up with the fact that the Mac market is growing exponentially, it's nothing but a bad business decision or bad tech decisions to not support the Mac with TOR.

[julusp]

(truncated)...

I wish I could find it now, but there was a post on the previous WoW forums talking about this exact issue and another Blizzard (community manager) provided info that the percentage of Mac WoW players was disproportionately higher than the general market share... and Mac players subscribed longer and had fewer technical issues. So they wouldn't give numbers, but that's more in line.

...

 

Yes, but blizzard makes native ports for Mac OS X. Most of the supported EA games ported on Mac were ported using Cider, which uses original windows files and translates the all windows api call to mac api on the fly (in other words, pretty much same as Wine/Crossover, but with active support).

[Rogoo]

Speaking without an ounce of knowledge.

 

I have a Mac Pro.

 

It totally sucks for gaming (considering the price, that is). OpenCL is absolutely terrible performance wise.

 

Want to test it ? Run Modo. Open some sort of a scene.

Then bootcamp to windows, and open the same scene in the windows version of Modo.

 

Cry a little.

 

I did not buy a Mac to use Windows.

 

Solution ? Bought a separate PC for gaming.

 

Cheers.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Rogoo

[jdi_knght]

I have a Mac Pro.

 

It totally sucks for gaming (considering the price, that is). OpenCL is absolutely terrible performance wise.

 

Want to test it ? Run Modo. Open some sort of a scene.

Then bootcamp to windows, and open the same scene in the windows version of Modo.

 

Cry a little.

 

I did not buy a Mac to use Windows.

 

Solution ? Bought a separate PC for gaming.

 

Cheers.

 

Usually when people say that something "sucks for gaming" they give an example of a game. You gave an example of a 3d rendering program. It would make just as much sense for someone to counter by saying that windows "sucks for gaming" and support it by saying the Mac version of iTunes is better than the Windows version of iTunes.

 

You also didn't mention the specs. The Mac in the other room here is at least 300x better at gaming than the PC I have in the basement. The PC in the basement is an old 486 though. So the context kinda matters.

 

 

 

Every current Mac (and most made within the last 2-3 years) meet the requirements for TOR hardware-wise, just as nearly every current PC (and many made within the last 2-3 years) do. Other current games from Blizzard, Valve, etc are running just fine on Macs so it's reasonable to assume that if BioWare made a native Mac version it would run just fine too.

[doomlordVII]

That doesn't even match the general market share! That is not "Blizzard's official data and statement" that's random tech support guy 42329034.

 

Sorry, but the official numbers are that Mac OSX share is about 6%, +/- about 1%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9

 

Regardless of source, the general consensus has Windows with OVER 90% market share. Now, as we know, gamers dont even come close to making up half of the world's computer users. Maybe 2/10 computer users play games. So that means globally 18% of Windows users game, and 2% of Mac users game. Regardless, the audience on Windows is over NINE TIMES greater than on Mac. Then add in that most gamers are running Windows in one state or another (multi-boot, boot camp, etc.), and that share for Mac shrinks even more.

 

Also, Im willing to bet that "random tech support guy" probably has access to general Blizzard/WoW stats. Chances are he pulled those up and saw that of all their clients out there, only 6-8% are running macs. Heck, it doesnt even have to be user stats. He probably just had to look at the percentage that pull down Mac patches.

 

Fact is, its just not profitable. Would it be cool for all games everywhere to come out on every OS? Yes, absolutely. The thing is, the vast majority of games use Direct-X as a render method. Now, Direct X is a Microsoft platform, so its not going to run on Mac.

 

Now, lets look at the engine SWTOR uses: the Hero Engine. Officially, it ONLY supports Windows. Why? Because it uses Direct X as a render method.

 

The funny thing is, Bioware didnt make this engine. So to get it running on Mac, they would need to either re-write the ENTIRE engine to run on OpenGL (not easy to do a conversion), or get a new engine that runs on Open-GL (also not easy). Either way, the insane amount of effort needed to get SWTOR to run on Mac just isnt worth it.

 

If you're gonna game on PC, you're gonna need to run Windows. Thats just how it is.

 

I stay connected with family in ways Windows can only dream of

 

And what ways would that be? Through some of those terribly restrictive, closed-source "iSuite" programs?

[julusp]

(truncated)

...

Now, Direct X is a Microsoft platform, so its not going to run on Mac.

 

Now, lets look at the engine SWTOR uses: the Hero Engine. Officially, it ONLY supports Windows. Why? Because it uses Direct X as a render method.

 

The funny thing is, Bioware didnt make this engine. So to get it running on Mac, they would need to either re-write the ENTIRE engine to run on OpenGL (not easy to do a conversion), or get a new engine that runs on Open-GL (also not easy). Either way, the insane amount of effort needed to get SWTOR to run on Mac just isnt worth it.

 

If you're gonna game on PC, you're gonna need to run Windows. Thats just how it is.

 

 

 

And what ways would that be? Through some of those terribly restrictive, closed-source "iSuite" programs?

 

You made yourself analization of the market share, but not the games. Nice.

So I have a big news for you. DirectX games RUN on Mac OS X. Settlers 7, Sims 3, Borderlands and so much other games you can buy for both platforms. Even EVE Online has his Mac client, running on DirectX engine. How? It's called Cider. If you look into those games files, you will see that there is familiar file structure (drive_c/Windows , drive_c/Program files). If you visit Cider homesite you will find there are familiar logos... EA and Bioware, both are porting games to MAC using Cider. The only thing the Cider needs is optimized Windows version, because if the game is buggy on windows, it will become twice as buggy on Mac.

 

So please stop spreading your nonsense messages about rewriting the entire game to use OpenGL, use of windows and so on. Yes there is only a little chance of official SWTOR port to game, but the reason is not the DirectX, the reason is that Cider does not know how to handle multiple processes. SWTOR spawns 2 of them. RemoteRenderer engine and swtor_dual (whatever that is).

 

And one other thing. I am gamiing on Mac, and i dont need the PC/Windows, and without using Parallels or Vmware. Civilization 5, Mass Effect 1-3, Settlers 7, Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Everything runs on Mac OS X nearly or equally as good as on windows...

 

Don't underestimate the power of the community

[MackumDog]

Sorry but MAC users are the devils own agents and we just cannot allow hords of grpahics designers and designer geeks playing our beloved game..

 

Linux port please.

[julusp]

Sorry but MAC users are the devils own agents and we just cannot allow hords of grpahics designers and designer geeks playing our beloved game..

 

Linux port please.

 

 

Nice one

 

Anyway, nobody is going to bother with linux, because of the many distributions. Every linux user have different version gcc , glibc, xorg, kernel. It\s not possible to make sustainable official port of games for linux. Eve Online tryied that, but gave up, as wine can do the job as well.

 

Mac users aren't just designers, i bought mac because i get bored with the linux (yes, I was the linux user for more than 10 years (gentoo, debian)), because of my work (Unix 2nd Line). On Mac, i dont have to solve the dependency puzzles (which can be really timeconsuming), and still, I can use any Linux application (including KDE, Gnome) thanks to the Macports (almost same thing as BSD ports).

 

And if you want to play SWTOR on Linux, you can try it with wine. on appdb there is a manual how to get it working on linux and you might be a lucky one with no issues at all

[Lethality]

Sorry, but the official numbers are that Mac OSX share is about 6%, +/- about 1%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

http://www.netmarketshare.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9

 

You need to consider the markets as well... I'm not kidding when I say that 25% of computers sold at retail in the US are Macs. Additionally, you have to look at the markets that TOR has been released in - US, France, Germany and now Oceania. If you look at the Mac percentages there, they are much higher than that of the "world" - where TOR is not available anyway.

 

Regardless of source, the general consensus has Windows with OVER 90% market share.

 

Do you realize how big the personal computer market is? Do you know what BMW would do to have 10% share of the automotive market, for example?

 

Now, as we know, gamers dont even come close to making up half of the world's computer users. Maybe 2/10 computer users play games. So that means globally 18% of Windows users game, and 2% of Mac users game.

 

Huh? That's not how percentages work.

 

If you're going to say 18% of Windows users play games, then you also have to say 18% of Mac users play games.

 

Regardless, the audience on Windows is over NINE TIMES greater than on Mac. Then add in that most gamers are running Windows in one state or another (multi-boot, boot camp, etc.), and that share for Mac shrinks even more.

 

This is not a game for "gamers" exclusively, and in fact barely.

 

It's a mainstream casual MMORPG set in a pop-culture universe that has universal appeal. There are non-gamers, soccer moms, university professors and more playing this game. MMORPGs are consumed more as a hobby than a video game. It's important to understand this behavior is much different than that of "gamers."

 

 

Also, Im willing to bet that "random tech support guy" probably has access to general Blizzard/WoW stats. Chances are he pulled those up and saw that of all their clients out there, only 6-8% are running macs. Heck, it doesnt even have to be user stats. He probably just had to look at the percentage that pull down Mac patches.

 

Did you read the part where he said he had no access to data and was just guessing? As a tech support person you certainly see less problems with Macs than Windows, and that's where he was likely drawing his assumption from. As I mentioned, there is data that shows MUCH higher percentage of Mac WoW players, even if not official. The sample size is too large to ignore.

 

 

Fact is, its just not profitable. Would it be cool for all games everywhere to come out on every OS? Yes, absolutely. The thing is, the vast majority of games use Direct-X as a render method. Now, Direct X is a Microsoft platform, so its not going to run on Mac.

 

Not profitable? It's only not profitable if you lack the skills, the management and the marketing. The FACT is that it IS profitable, as evidenced by the market leader Blizzard, companies like Valve, id and others... all of the leading studios.

 

And you (just like BioWare didn't) aren't taking into account the growth of the market. If you have a mainstream entertainment software product that relies on recurring revenue, you are foolish to not supply the option to a huge and growing market that is but a sneeze away technically from your main supported platform. Ludicrous, really.

 

Now, lets look at the engine SWTOR uses: the Hero Engine. Officially, it ONLY supports Windows. Why? Because it uses Direct X as a render method.

 

Again, that was a POOR tech choice on many levels. I don't fault BioWare 100% for choosing it back in 2006 because the Mac market was different then... but that's not the only problem with it. If I'm building a multi-million dollar AAA MMO with a decade of plans, chances are i'm building my own, not using middleware, especially due to the importance of something like this. Plus as we've seen now, HeroEngine isn't exactly the poster child for performance... it seems to have systemic issues that may or not ever be able to be resolved. And it's BioWare that will be doing the resolving - it's their custom engine now.

 

 

The funny thing is, Bioware didnt make this engine. So to get it running on Mac, they would need to either re-write the ENTIRE engine to run on OpenGL (not easy to do a conversion), or get a new engine that runs on Open-GL (also not easy). Either way, the insane amount of effort needed to get SWTOR to run on Mac just isnt worth it.

 

You've really stepped into an area that you clearly have no place speaking about. It's not trivial of course, but it's absolutely doable and in fact that's how it's done. Also you understand that's just the display engine, right? All of the other stuff... art, voice, music, classes, abilities, content, narrative, etc already exist. They don't have to be re-created, as it's platform-agnostic. It's utterly foolish that for maybe 5% of the overall budget they could have had a Mac version already.

 

Mac gaming was profitable even make in the day not too long ago when the market share was 2%, although the developers had to be more picky and choosy as to what to release - it had to be good.

 

With the precedent Blizzard set with World of Warcraft, and the universal appeal of the Star Wars universe, it should have been planned from the start. It's inconceivable to me that it wasn't.

 

Side note, DirectX is going away as a favored API as developers look to deploy their games on more platforms, namely the iOS and Android... Windows specialty coding will be a thing of the past, for all but the most niche games. The rest will have to be ported to Windows... the future is coming, watch out.

 

 

 

If you're gonna game on PC, you're gonna need to run Windows. Thats just how it is.

 

I'm not gonna game on a PC. Ever. It's MUCH easier to leave TOR behind. That's just how it is.

 

 

 

And what ways would that be? Through some of those terribly restrictive, closed-source "iSuite" programs?

 

Stop fighting it. Go ask your mom if she cares about open source, or go ask your sister or your nephew... you are blind to the future.

 

Also, I didn't realize Windows was open-source.

 

Edited March 18, 2012 by Lethality

[Pencilvania]

Please take a moment to read the topic of this thread. In the original post it was stated that:

 

THIS IS NOT A MAC VS. PC THREAD

THIS IS NOT A BOOTCAMP THREAD

If you are looking to debate how one PC manufacturer is better than another PC manufacturer I would ask that you start a thread of your own.

 

If you would like to debate or give advice about Bootcamp I would again ask that you use the Bootcamp threads.

 

Our little thread here is about support for a Mac Client. As much as I appreciate debates over different PC platforms, manufacturers, and OS makers, this is not the topic of our thread.

 

Please be kind and respectful of each other.

[rooklv]

Please take a moment to read the topic of this thread. In the original post it was stated that:

 

THIS IS NOT A MAC VS. PC THREAD

THIS IS NOT A BOOTCAMP THREAD

If you are looking to debate how one PC manufacturer is better than another PC manufacturer I would ask that you start a thread of your own.

 

It'll never happen. Proselytizing your choice is personal computer is just as big a problem as trek vs wars or marvel vs. dc. You cannot avoid it when talking about one or the other in mixed company.

 

That being said. I do hope they have full Mac support someday. But, given the nature of the game, it will probably be a very long ways away. Once they get past weekly patches and get their head above water.

 

No, I don't have a mac. No, I don't want a mac. What I DO want is as many people as possible in the game and hopefully on my server. It's still a self-centered hope.

[Pencilvania]

It'll never happen. Proselytizing your choice is personal computer is just as big a problem as trek vs wars or marvel vs. dc. You cannot avoid it when talking about one or the other in mixed company.

 

That being said. I do hope they have full Mac support someday. But, given the nature of the game, it will probably be a very long ways away. Once they get past weekly patches and get their head above water.

 

No, I don't have a mac. No, I don't want a mac. What I DO want is as many people as possible in the game and hopefully on my server. It's still a self-centered hope.

 

Thank you for your post.

 

My view on this thread is that we all can be civil with each other. Having a leveled headed and respectful debate is always a worthwhile endeavor.

[fordpre]

Problem is as with many threads people seem to be making up statistics to suit their own argument. EA given the huge number of titles that they produce probably have a far better idea than anyone here what sort of numbers of MAC owners regularly game on their computers. I know 4 mac owners none of who are game players. Out of the PC owners I know I'd say that about 40%ish play 3d games of any type. I am not trying to claim any particular correlation with MAC as only knowing 4 mac owners I cant possibly extrapolate. Additionally it might also vary from country to country.

 

Ultimately I guess that the decision will be down to EA as the owners of bioware and they will compare the likely return on investment against the cost of porting to MAC. Given that hero engine is being ported that should be a ray of hope for mac owners however by the sounds of it bioware have made huge changes to the hero engine base which would have to be then identified and added to the mac engine. Thats far from an inconsequential task you then have to test it.

 

From what bioware have said they are looking into the possibility but there are currently no ongoing plans to port to MAC. If it does happen then IMO you wont see this released on MAC for at least another 12-24 months at best.

 

As for do I support it? So long as its likely to be popular why not? The busier the game the better it is for me. Not just to get groups etc but also EA are not going to continue investing in a game which isnt generating a lot of money.

[Restepor]

I don't care either way. As long as it doesn't interrupt my playing time, go right ahead.

[Albertwang]

Bioware should have a Mac client ASAP . Seriously going to consider a MacBook Pro next year and would like to play in native OS X and not have to nuke that end of my OS for the game...

[TheBBP]

It is true. Games are being ported to Mac. Look at this amazing assortment of recent Triple A games available at the Mac site!

 

STEAM has a great assortment of top-tier titles as well!

 

They must be sold out of games like Skyrim, Mass Effect 3, MW3 and other very popular titles... right? I mean, why would these developers pass on that HUGE Mac gamer market?

 

 

 

Originally Posted by StephenReid

 

Don't make assumptions, please.

 

 

 

I said we're not currently working on a Mac client. That doesn't rule out the possibility of a Mac client in the future; as various interviews have stated, it's always possible.

 

 

 

However, currently, there are no development efforts directed towards a Mac client. Unless it's being done in an underground bunker far from here by stealth-suited developers.

 

Shows how urgent that amazing snowball called "Gaming on Macs" is making things.

Edited March 20, 2012 by TheBBP

[Motherfluffa]

Right, i am a mac gamer, granted i only very recently bought my mac after getting bored of my alienware crashing all the time, and i tried all the parallels and wine wrappers etc and finally gave in and installed bootcamp. first off, swtor performs amazingly in bootcamp, i have everything maxed and getting 50+ fps. secondly for all you silly people complaining about the price of windows, if you buy a sticker or even a fan you qualify for a free copy of windows OEM which is just home premium but for system builders. So get down to your store and claim your free copy, i contacted microsoft about this and they confirmed everything im saying.

 

just saying guys, its not the end of the world giving up 40gb of your hard disk to install a free copy of windows and run swtor perfectly.

[Lethality]

It is true. Games are being ported to Mac. Look at this amazing assortment of recent Triple A games available at the Mac site!

 

STEAM has a great assortment of top-tier titles as well!

 

They must be sold out of games like Skyrim, Mass Effect 3, MW3 and other very popular titles... right? I mean, why would these developers pass on that HUGE Mac gamer market?

 

Originally Posted by StephenReid

Don't make assumptions, please.

 

I said we're not currently working on a Mac client. That doesn't rule out the possibility of a Mac client in the future; as various interviews have stated, it's always possible.

 

However, currently, there are no development efforts directed towards a Mac client. Unless it's being done in an underground bunker far from here by stealth-suited developers.

 

Shows how urgent that amazing snowball called "Gaming on Macs" is making things.

 

Until someone comes up with an acceptable answer why Blizzard does it and is the market leader, every single reason is invalid. Every single one, bar none.

 

It's profitable and that's guaranteed. The market is big enough and that's guaranteed. Must be other deficiencies elsewhere....

[Lethality]

Right, i am a mac gamer, granted i only very recently bought my mac after getting bored of my alienware crashing all the time, and i tried all the parallels and wine wrappers etc and finally gave in and installed bootcamp. first off, swtor performs amazingly in bootcamp, i have everything maxed and getting 50+ fps. secondly for all you silly people complaining about the price of windows, if you buy a sticker or even a fan you qualify for a free copy of windows OEM which is just home premium but for system builders. So get down to your store and claim your free copy, i contacted microsoft about this and they confirmed everything im saying.

 

just saying guys, its not the end of the world giving up 40gb of your hard disk to install a free copy of windows and run swtor perfectly.

 

OEM license is not correct, and against the license agreement. You need the full retail license to install on Boot Camp.

 

Windows is $200, end of story. Not worth it for one game, by far.

[Biytor]

No, it's a waste of development time that could be better spent elsewhere.

 

 

Ding Ding Ding.

 

 

We have a winner!