Gwal Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Well I guess that would solve the FOTM reroll problem then, huh? But really you have the same problem in PVE, you need the last tiers to get the next. Stopping progression in that environment sounds absurd. You need PVP progression as well, or once again PVE gear will dominate in PVP. I already predicted this post and said you would say exactly this without reading the thread beforehand. Put in a PvE only stat on raid gear. Balance all the base stats used in PvP across all armour/weps = problem solved. Right now you're saying fresh fifties in T0 gear are being thrown into T3 pvp. Can you see why that is a problem. Now if there is to be pvp gear progression the war zones should have tiered progression to go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amp_ Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 They should have made top end pvp and pve mirror each other. Basically the same set with different cosmetics. Keep Expertise but change it to only being something like a 5% damage reduction. Still provides an advantage, but not an insurmountable one. The current issue with Expertise is not necessarily that it exists, it just does too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DosPeros Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 This is the same fallacy you are arguing against in your overall post. The only advantage the player ranking up should have over the fresh noob is the experience gained from participating. The experienced, ranked up player will have better reaction time, know what to do in just about every situation, and have a more polished approach to the combat. This is all that player needs. To then give them a gear or stat advantage of any kind will only make things so terrible for the fresh noob that they will simply stop participating. This is how PvP fails in MMOs. As an analogy, back in say 1995, some guy spends all day in the arcade mastering Street Fighter. He is so polished that no noob without much experience stands a chance of beating him. Do you then give him a 10% boost to the damage he deals as well as make his noob opponents deal 10% less damage to him? Its a ridiculous concept, and this is the very reason the gear chase ruined Warcraft's PvP. Ranking up should simply be a measure of experience. Sure, give out a title or two for those that excel, but absolutely do not give any stat advantage of any kind as this will kill it for the majority of people. Finally someone talking sense.... Experience and expertise should be real.... not some phony math metric added by the Dev's. Artificial devices like this.... added through PVP gear only cause discontent for no purpose. I really do not understand the concept of PVP gear and PVE gear... Why the distinction? What issue is it designed to balance...... If someone could help me understand I would appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemmy_DB Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) I already predicted this post and said you would say exactly this without reading the thread beforehand. Put in a PvE only stat on raid gear. Balance all the base stats used in PvP across all armour/weps = problem solved. Right now you're saying fresh fifties in T0 gear are being thrown into T3 pvp. Can you see why that is a problem. Now if there is to be pvp gear progression the war zones should have tiered progression to go with it. Was thinking that too. At the end of the day, expertise (and the equivalents in any other games) are simply band-aids to address the problems with raid gear progression affecting PVP. Surely the obvious way to handle it would be a PVE stat as stated - or alternatively, make the raid gear have the same basic stats as all T0 stuff, but ever increasing set-bonuses which do not apply in PVP. Also part of the problem is that PVE can be scaled to make it easier for newer players to catch up with gear (I understand WOW did this - can't say for sure never played it) to get closer to the raid tier that the majority of the population are on. But with PVP - it actually gets harder to catch up as a new player - simply because the opposition gets tougher the more time passes since release (tougher from both a gear aspect and skill). Edited January 30, 2012 by Lemmy_DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 My expertise is low, I'm still using centurion and pve-items. Don't talk to me like you know me. er... doesn't actually change my point... Who cares? Some casual with 2% expertise is an easy kill if he's only average skilled. Who really cares? I like going against equally or better geared opponents. It's fun to fight against people who I see everyday in warzones. When I see that 2% guy once a week, I couldn't care less about him. Just killing him accidently with some aoe. er... really doesn't have any baring on anything... Great post over all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwal Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Finally someone talking sense.... Experience and expertise should be real.... not some phony math metric added by the Dev's. Artificial devices like this.... added through PVP gear only cause discontent for no purpose. I really do not understand the concept of PVP gear and PVE gear... Why the distinction? What issue is it designed to balance...... If someone could help me understand I would appreciate it. Apparently in WoW lots "PvEers" were using raid gear to roflstomp PvPers WoW tried to balance this with various PvP gear sets/stats. Since then WoW has become a codeword for industry standard and MMO developers have decided to copy this formula. Basically Bioware put in a stat to solve a non-existent issue and to add grind/time value to an underwhelming amount of pvp content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balanque Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Great post over all. Yeah. My point being, I like how expertise cancels itself out when going against equally geared people when everyone has full set of battlemaster. In future rateds I know I'm playing against people who did the grind I did, and not some casuals who are trying out some pvp. I don't like playing against them, they are usually bad. Expertise is part of the gear progress for pvp-players. This is an MMO. It's like some of you can't deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thiagorib Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Expertise and pvp system in general is just perfect, couldnt be better. Bioware made a excelent job and they gonna keep doing for sure. Stop making non sense threads and try to understand the game pvp. Enjoy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husanak Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 For proof of the gear / expertise failure all you have too do is role an alt right now. Go and PvP in the 10-49 bracket. Thing is Bioware did 100% come up with a fantastic Elegant solution for pvp. It is called BOLSTER. Back in beta I remember thinking this is terrible this has to be a beta thing.... then each build it got more refined... the classes really honestly felt very well balanced by the end of beta, even Marauders and Sents felt reasonable. The issue is the only stat not made too work with the PvP bolster system is the pvp stat. NOTICE TO THE BIOWARE DESIGNER RESPONSIBLE FOR BOLSTER. Please go and fight too have your system implemented properly... convince your co workers to role expertise into the bolster system. (then you guys can just leave the stat on the current gear... leave the numbers the same on future gear... and you don't have to admit that Expertise was a bad idea)..... you can add routines too the bolster mechanic too grade future raid sets accordingly and properly boost warzones to nullify there effect...... Its a Genius system go and FIGHT for it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksism Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 It's the whole pvp vs pve gear issue that results in developers using 'solutions' like a pvp stat on gear. I guarantee 100% that the raging would consume the entire universe if people that only pvp were suddenly being owned by people in raid gear. One thing I always have to say in these threads though is that if you are playing an mmo expecting skill based pvp competition you really are in the wrong genre of game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teabaker Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Expertise should be a flat -damage. Edited January 30, 2012 by Teabaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delavager Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 For proof of the gear / expertise failure all you have too do is role an alt right now. Go and PvP in the 10-49 bracket. Thing is Bioware did 100% come up with a fantastic Elegant solution for pvp. It is called BOLSTER. Back in beta I remember thinking this is terrible this has to be a beta thing.... then each build it got more refined... the classes really honestly felt very well balanced by the end of beta, even Marauders and Sents felt reasonable. The issue is the only stat not made too work with the PvP bolster system is the pvp stat. NOTICE TO THE BIOWARE DESIGNER RESPONSIBLE FOR BOLSTER. Please go and fight too have your system implemented properly... convince your co workers to role expertise into the bolster system. (then you guys can just leave the stat on the current gear... leave the numbers the same on future gear... and you don't have to admit that Expertise was a bad idea)..... you can add routines too the bolster mechanic too grade future raid sets accordingly and properly boost warzones to nullify there effect...... Its a Genius system go and FIGHT for it. Thanks. Except for the 10-49 bracket is the most imbalanced feature of the game or any game ever made. The abilities and skill points different between a level 10 and level 49 >>>>> gear difference between a new level 50 and a battlemaster level 50. Everything a level 50 battlemaster can do to a level 50 fresh meat can be done more times over by a level 49 to a level 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husanak Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Yeah. My point being, I like how expertise cancels itself out when going against equally geared people when everyone has full set of battlemaster. In future rateds I know I'm playing against people who did the grind I did, and not some casuals who are trying out some pvp. I don't like playing against them, they are usually bad. Expertise is part of the gear progress for pvp-players. This is an MMO. It's like some of you can't deal with it. Unrelated... however... Whats the point if knowing if you are playing with people that que up a couple times a week or someone that plays 20 warzones a night... You are going to know the people that play against you in 20 matachs a night so obviously the new faces are just that new faces. lol What is the point of KNOWing that they are not hardcore pvp players... are you going to not heal them ? ..... Perhaps not guard them or taunt someone off em ?.... Or perhaps you are just going to go AFK and try to get another match ? I think the attitude honestly puts you in the "Bad" camp. I do que up for 20 or so matches every day... not because I care if I get a ton of gear. (I'm slowly gearing up I guess) I do it because I do mostly have fun.... seriously though I see so many players with this attitude that look around at the other players we are teamed with and start the OPS: Oh my here we go a bunch a noobs... we loose... Then they AFK out of the zone.... do us all a favor grow a pair and if you need to call targets objectives and teach some noobs how to PvP.... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balanque Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thing is Bioware did 100% come up with a fantastic Elegant solution for pvp. Oh man, I thought these expertise-whiners are clueless. Why are you posting about bolster in a thread about expertise? Also I think that you don't really understand what bolster does. Stat balancing has little to do with real differences between 10 and 49 player. Difference between those 2 is way bigger than 15% expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balanque Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 ... It's nice that someone is having fun with bunch or random casuals. I don't. I can't wait to get into rated warzones. I know, what I wrote there has nothing to do with this thread. Should leave it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husanak Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Except for the 10-49 bracket is the most imbalanced feature of the game or any game ever made. The abilities and skill points different between a level 10 and level 49 >>>>> gear difference between a new level 50 and a battlemaster level 50. Everything a level 50 battlemaster can do to a level 50 fresh meat can be done more times over by a level 49 to a level 10. Its hard to argue the 10-20... level 10s probaly are a bit low... really though I topped plenty of PvP charts on the latest alt when I was pvping at level 14 (damn toon hit 50 opened my first 10 bags... and now its on too alt 4 so I can have 4 50s in a couple weeks lol)... I didn't start pvping until I got my sprint... perhaps they really should just have people start pvping at level 15 or 20 making pvp a 20-50 with FULL bolster including PvP stats would be perfect in my view anyway. Boolster really does work... it is a better solution then the current 50 bracket, whats frustrating is it was Biowares own solution. To me it seems there are the Bio guys that designed it and then theres a disconnect somewhere with another part of Bio that thinks we all must grind in order too keep paying subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwal Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) some casuals who are trying out some pvp. I don't like playing against them, they are usually bad. And these casuals pay as much as you do, they keep the game alive. I'm a dedicated PvPer and I know we make up 5% of the MMO sub base. A game of this size cannot survive with just a few crusties paying. Stop trying to say that those of us against expertise are just PvE'ers QQing. We're PvPers that have seen this type of crap kill one MMO after another, and we want this one to grow not decline like all the rest which are now F2P or in some extreme cases nothing more than memory. I'll play this, my brother and two of his friends have already quit solely based on pvp imbalance. Edited January 30, 2012 by Gwal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DosPeros Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Apparently in WoW lots "PvEers" were using raid gear to roflstomp PvPers WoW tried to balance this with various PvP gear sets/stats. Since then WoW has become a codeword for industry standard and MMO developers have decided to copy this formula. Basically Bioware put in a stat to solve a non-existent issue and to add grind/time value to an underwhelming amount of pvp content. I was lambasted on Friday for suggest the removal of PVP gear, maybe it is the expertise stat that offset the balance, however to me it seems the pure over powering of stat boosts in the PVP gear which makes it so over the top. I have seen some players with as many a 18k health..... Is PVP gear bad in raids? I can't see how that would be true.... My experience with PVE raids was awful (EQ2) and are even worse when they become the method for top flight gear. It seems to me that the answer is in the Player made gear, Open to all, but still requires effort. You can earn the credits however you like.... PVP/PVE, crafting. With sufficient time and money you can buy whatever you need.... like the real world. Two opponents with similar gear, naked or full battle master, the skill of the individual should determine the outcome of a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husanak Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Oh man, I thought these expertise-whiners are clueless. Why are you posting about bolster in a thread about expertise? Also I think that you don't really understand what bolster does. Stat balancing has little to do with real differences between 10 and 49 player. Difference between those 2 is way bigger than 15% expertise. Bolster was designed by Bio too allow ONE bracket of PvP. It does balance EVERY PvE stat the game has so that toons geared equaly well for there level end up with the same calculated numbers. The ONLY stat that is not included in the bolster system is Expertise. That is why I point it out. It IS the reason the 50 bracket needed to exist. If bolster also boosted the expertise stat giving every toon a median amount of the stat... there would be NO need for a 50 bracket. Granted this would make the stat pointless... but seeing as people that argue its a good thing admit that when everyone has it it equals out... what is the issue. lol Interesting that every one is waiting for GW2... which WILL Equalize everyone... Bio came up with a system too do the same thing... and they backpeddled added a PvP stat.... and had to spin off a 50 bracket... and will have to start nerfing classes that are effected disproportionately by Expertises odd trinity of boosts. (I can still forgive them its there first MMO... but if they don't right the ship they are on a cycle that as someone else just pointed out most of us have seen now in more then one MMO that is either struggling with dumb F2P models or closed down altogether... or in the case of Cough TW, looking for away to undo past mistakes with out pissing too many people off) Edited January 30, 2012 by Husanak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 In future rateds I know I'm playing against people who did the grind I did, and not some casuals who are trying out some pvp. I don't like playing against them, they are usually bad. How does this even make sense to you in your mind? How can you even call yourself a PVPer? If everyone has Battlemaster than Expertise is totally null and void, it does nothing. So it's pointless, it serves as a crutch for people with it (which I am) to beat on those without it. If nonone had it and gear was equal then when those new "casuals" joined a game you should be able to use skill and team work to beat them, you know those two things that are meant to make a PVPer good.. There are countless examples of better systems than Bioware's attempt. Even something basic like a PVE stat You're not a PVPer, you're a guy that needs his crutch progression. You literally just related skill to gear level. Expertise is part of the gear progress for pvp-players. This is an MMO. It's like some of you can't deal with it. Sounds like YOU can't deal with actually competing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delavager Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Its hard to argue the 10-20... level 10s probaly are a bit low... really though I topped plenty of PvP charts on the latest alt when I was pvping at level 14 (damn toon hit 50 opened my first 10 bags... and now its on too alt 4 so I can have 4 50s in a couple weeks lol)... I didn't start pvping until I got my sprint... perhaps they really should just have people start pvping at level 15 or 20 making pvp a 20-50 with FULL bolster including PvP stats would be perfect in my view anyway. Boolster really does work... it is a better solution then the current 50 bracket, whats frustrating is it was Biowares own solution. To me it seems there are the Bio guys that designed it and then theres a disconnect somewhere with another part of Bio that thinks we all must grind in order too keep paying subs. No BOLSTER doesn't work. It only makes it bareable. The equalling factor in the 10-49 bracket is skill level. The reason you are doing so well with your ALT is because it's your ALT, meaning you've already went through to level 50 before and know what you are doing. Players in the 10-49 bracket suck it's easy to top charts. If you as a level 10-20 went up against a level 49 with EQUAL SKILL, you'd get creamed. You probably wouldn't get any damage off. In the 40s I could easily kill players with out them being able to use any abilities. I could also easily 3-4 shot them. The current 50 bracket is only "TERRIBLE" because you just came from being 49 (meaning you had the biggest advantage known to man) and then went to 50 being at a disadvantage. It's a HUGE change of pace to go from winning without trying to losing while trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abanoth Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) It's a pity they didn't focus on improving the bolster system until everyone was at the same "level" in terms of appropriate stats so gear was meaningless. I was genuinely impressed with that and can't for the life of me figure out why they didn't stick with it over caving into the traditional treadmill. But I suppose it's easier to keep people grinding than playing for fun. The developers see it as the "Safe" route to keep subs and a lot of the playerbase grew up with it in WoW to the point of their thought process being Give me a reward so I feel like the last 72 hours of my life that I poured into this game actually matter. Edited January 30, 2012 by Abanoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bregah Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 There is a 2-3 week hell period (1.5 hours/day) that new 50's need to go through in order to become competitive with higher ranks. We all did it, some of us are even doing it again with alts. I'm sorry, but this is dumb game design. I know every MMO does it now, but it's still dumb. I've done the resilience grind in WoW dozens of times (each expansion, each tier, multiple characters at 70/80/85, multiple healers, etc), and it was never fun there. It's also not fun here. Developers need to come up with another way. Normalize gear in warzones/designated PvP areas. Give 5 min cooldown abilities as rewards for high Valor. Put armor skins up for commendations, titles for valor, whatever. But do something other than a 2-3 week gear grind that's made even worse by the RNG bag system, please. Make PvP about teamwork and skill, and ONLY teamwork and skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoolanderrr Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Why dont we just get rid of gear and make everyone play naked? thatd be fair right? its a bloody mmo you have to reward the people who put more time in or theres no point to playing. If you want to compete in a perfectly fair environment go play counter strike or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delavager Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I'm sorry, but this is dumb game design. I know every MMO does it now, but it's still dumb. I've done the resilience grind in WoW dozens of times (each expansion, each tier, multiple characters at 70/80/85, multiple healers, etc), and it was never fun there. It's also not fun here. Developers need to come up with another way. Normalize gear in warzones/designated PvP areas. Give 5 min cooldown abilities as rewards for high Valor. Put armor skins up for commendations, titles for valor, whatever. But do something other than a 2-3 week gear grind that's made even worse by the RNG bag system, please. Make PvP about teamwork and skill, and ONLY teamwork and skill. The RNG Bag system, while "not awesome" isn't any sort of reason for gear grind. You get tokens for centurion gear which is slightly worse than champion, but not by any long shot. You can even buy several battle masters gear with straight mercenary/warzones commendations given you're valor rank 60. There is one reason and one reason only that the bolster feature was put in to the PvP system and that was to curb queue times. The reason there is only a level 50's bracket and a level 10-49 bracket because there aren't enough people to put into smaller brackets. It wasn't to "equalize gear" per se. It really just a way to make things easier for the developers and have more of a player pool to queue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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