Razorburst Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) I completely understand the desire to reward to dedicated PvPers with something to show for their efforts, but the gear (as random as it is) plus a ridiculous all around stat boost on top is insane. Saying, "Well, we all had to go through it. One day you can grief other people" is not a solution at all, it's just justifying the problem. One stat seems to trump others and i dont believe any one stat should be the focus of pvp. Any fresh level 50 or even someone who has a few pvp pieces will tell you the gear gap is wider than it need to be. Players in full BM gear will tell you the same thing. Valor gains havent been balanced and are easier to earn depending on faction. Many people believe that valor gains have been exploited. The fix would be a new set of pvp gear to reach for as long as the rewards came at the same rate for everybody/faction/server/class/etc. This is probably coming, but who knows when and a quick fix may be to just reduce the power of expertise. 10% max for BM gear or even less. Where do we go from here? If there is new content added, is the next pvp set going to send us to 15%+? People who sit and whine about expertise gear being unfair are the same people who want everything handed to them without doing any work. Expertise is designed for pvp players at 50 to remain competitive and progressive against other pvp players and give those pvp players something that they can work towards which atm is rank 65 and battlemaster gear. I have been unlucky with bags, but having saved my cent coms, till i only needed a few pieces, i have full champ/cent gear and i would easily have a lot of BM gear if i wasnt playing a alt. Edited January 30, 2012 by Razorburst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) The better system is already made up. Every player in PvP dedicated zone has EXACTLY same level with all skills unlocked. No gear has PvP dedicated stat, they are all from the same (lets say 50) base. No outside gear might be used in PvP. What distinguish players are skill builds and... experience. Easy and simple, no grinding, no raiding gear, balanced gameplay based on player's skill. Good luck keeping subscribers with that business model. In fairness this is what GW2 will do. We don't have a use case for it used in any other game. I think it will work for GW2 because .... here's the important part .... there is no subscription required Edited January 30, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balanque Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Nice thread here, again, made by clueless whiners. People who sit and whine about expertise gear being unfair are the same people who want everything handed to them without doing any work. Expertise is designed for pvp players at 50 to remain competitive and progressive against other pvp players and give those pvp players something that they can work towards which atm is rank 65 and battlemaster gear. He is right. Anyone disagreeing with him is just lazy and probably bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediDuckling Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 expertise realy only benefits those class's that can do all 3 in 1 go. which is why as soon as sages/sorces and trooper/bh gte full pvp expertise gear they become so OP as expertise does the folowing increases the damage you deal to players <--- even though some class's may be fully geared it still feels like they hit harder than usual. reduces the damage you take from players <--- adds up on the heavy armor and defense they had initialy increase's your healing done <---- turns your troopers into heal bots so your healing dps tanks become OP because of it even though they are slightly OP as it is the expertise just makes it worse :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogfatherxx Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I like expertise as it give a sense of progression. I would rather it only reduced damage though and get rid of the bonuses to damage and healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorruptedFlesh Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Nice thread here, again, made by clueless whiners. He is right. Anyone disagreeing with him is just lazy and probably bad. He is right to some point, that getting some items must be hard, but on the other hand - if he is so damn right, then he and you are the whiners that are crying for class nerfs. In other words, you (btw, BW too) fail to see that expertise is causing some stupid nerfs to classes, operatives are only a start, cause the problem scales more with them than any other class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Nice thread here, again, made by clueless whiners. He is right. Anyone disagreeing with him is just lazy and probably bad. I'm well past the soft cap and well on the way to Battlemaster, as is my pocket healer. Crutch stat is great for players like you that need a crutch and you'll defend it to the end, and that's all it is, a crutch. When everyone is in Battlemaster it does nothing because it effects all 3 aspects of play, healing, damage and survival. When some players have it, and others don't it's just a crutch to make up for your lack of skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalashasa Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 and how does getting hit for 10% more damage or hitting someone for 10% less = overpowered. L2P scrubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tohrazer Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 The reasoning is, raiders (even worse raider premades) would be able to go into warzones with full Rakata/Columi and 18-19k+ hp and be able to steamroll people, at which point, the PvPers would fill buckets with tears, stating that they need to grind PvE encounters to get gear for PvP. As it stands, sure fresh 50's will have a hard time, but they still have the chance to eventually get their own gear and even out the odds. No, its not the best or most fair system in the universe, but the alternatives are not that attractive. it worked fine in vanilla, remember that game that attracted and retained 10+ mil subs? yeah, so do i the wow of now is no better, and the free epic attitude these days that mmo's have are really detracting from the experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipda Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Rift's Valor (Expertise) system was awful. It was something like 35% buff in healing, damage and damage reduction when I quit playing, that was a few tiers ago as well. For healers it was insane when they had that much mitigation and +healing. I would like to see PVP gear restricted to just competitive PVP, ranked matches and arenas. Make the standard WZs like what GW2 is doing, everyone gets default sets of gear/stats based on role they select when joining. Call em Casual WZs. Rewards for Casual WZs can then drop tokens to either get crafting mats, credits, cosmetic stuff, speeders etc. Think of it as an extension to end game PVE grinding, where you always need credits for repair bills and crafting mats. It can also be used to rewards entry level gear or stat perks for the Competitive PVP. Competitive PVP would also be bracketed. Keeping folks with the highest level gear from stomping the new contenders into oblivion. 10-49 PVP is fun. Bolster system works great. It has its flaws but is still pretty good and PVP is always fun. Once you get to 50 your starting off with nothing against people that you have no hope to beat. Its not fun to not even have a chance at a solid fight. Right now you just have to keep taking your beating until the RNG gods smile upon you and give you enough gear to stand up for yourself. The whole time your just free kills for the other team, not fun at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebyrn Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 No we simply farmed valor faster in the first 5 weeks of a launch. 6 months from now when the rest of the pvp players that take the time to post here have multiple alts at battlemaster status... we will all get sick of beating on each other... and the real victims. The people that pick this game up 6 months from now... will abstain from pvping with any of us... and our favored corner of the game will slowly die off.... At some point Bios "Metrics" Will tell them that PvP players are only 5% of our 2 million subs and guess who doesn't get any more new content. Don't assume people point too issues with the system because they are trying too avoid some grind. lol Amen brother!! Someone has the forsight to think long term and not short term like many people who defend the expertise stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirvington Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 One partial solution to the problem of fresh 50s entering WZs would be to add crafted PvP sets that are a step below commendation sets. WoW offers crafted PvP sets which aren't great but allow new top lvl players to compete (and not get destroyed instantly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Why don't you just get PvP gear like everyone else and have two sets of gear like everyone else, and stop complaining about it. This post is a waste of bandwidth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Expertise is not the root of the problem, it is merely a symptom. The real problem is that there is no PvP. What we have is CvC (Character versus Character) where stats determine the outcome. Some moron at some other MMO company some time in the past decided that the best way to make a PvP system was to take their current PvE system and let the characters fight each other. Then another moron decided that system didn't work very well so they felt the best way to fix their broken "PvE pretending to be PvP" system was to add more PvE to it (in the form of a "PvP stat"). Now everyone copies that method because it is easier than changing it, plus most gamers have been conditioned into believing that PvP Progression is a good thing. If you want a true PvP game in your MMO, you need to realize that there cannot be any aspect of PvE in the PvP. No character can be inherently better than any other character of the same class, and that while filling thier role, every class cannot be better than any other class. When the outcome is determined solely by player skill and all stats (and other PvE elements) are completely removed, only then will you have PvP. Edited January 30, 2012 by Darth_Philar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 No we simply farmed valor faster in the first 5 weeks of a launch. 6 months from now when the rest of the pvp players that take the time to post here have multiple alts at battlemaster status... we will all get sick of beating on each other... and the real victims. The people that pick this game up 6 months from now... will abstain from pvping with any of us... and our favored corner of the game will slowly die off.... At some point Bios "Metrics" Will tell them that PvP players are only 5% of our 2 million subs and guess who doesn't get any more new content. Don't assume people point too issues with the system because they are trying too avoid some grind. lol I've been saying this for so many games past now, but it's mostly ignored. Your post will be burred among a mass of "omg expertize is r teh way to progresses" and it's truly a shame. I love the game but I think I'll move to GW2 for the PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nodq Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) it is better than resilience in WoW. Where PvE gear sometimes (more often than not...) dominates Arena/PvP on some classes. In swtor it is not like this, maybe some 2p set bonus is worth to waer instead of expertise... but as you already said. If you do not have any of it, you will get owned. And thats good like it is, no ****** PvE gear owning PvP players in a PvP enviroment. No big advantages for raiding PvE players in PvP etc. Maybe its not perfect, but it seems better than in WoW... so, what?! Edited January 30, 2012 by nodq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemmy_DB Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 No we simply farmed valor faster in the first 5 weeks of a launch. 6 months from now when the rest of the pvp players that take the time to post here have multiple alts at battlemaster status... we will all get sick of beating on each other... and the real victims. The people that pick this game up 6 months from now... will abstain from pvping with any of us... and our favored corner of the game will slowly die off.... At some point Bios "Metrics" Will tell them that PvP players are only 5% of our 2 million subs and guess who doesn't get any more new content. Don't assume people point too issues with the system because they are trying too avoid some grind. lol /agree. I'm pretty sure that this was one of the factors that killed off WAR. Simple fact - gear progression in PVP is bad for the longevity of the (PVP)game. Yep, it keeps those who were there from the beginning happy - but kills any influx of new pvp-ers. PVP population can only go one way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebyrn Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Why don't you just get PvP gear like everyone else and have two sets of gear like everyone else, and stop complaining about it. This post is a waste of bandwidth. You are right.... your post was a waste of bandwidth . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Karsk Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Just another post by someone who dont like their OP class getting nerft.Sry from now on you actually have to have skills to play a Operative.And the truth is, if you only do that damage at lvl 50 your just a bad player, or your lying. The nerf is on because the devs know what they are doing, so that makes your entire post 100% invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmongerCZ Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Dear developers, I attack a Sorc from stealth/behind and its: absorb, absorb, absorb - blinded... dead Some sabre wielding guy hits me for 4000. 5000, 4000- dead in a matter of seconds. I hit back in that time, maybe for <2000 damage. Try to play as 50 Lvl deception Sin Than you can see real squishiness in its true form Edited January 30, 2012 by WmongerCZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balanque Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Crutch stat is great for players like you that need a crutch and you'll defend it to the end, and that's all it is, a crutch. My expertise is low, I'm still using centurion and pve-items. Don't talk to me like you know me. When everyone is in Battlemaster it does nothing because it effects all 3 aspects of play, healing, damage and survival. When some players have it, and others don't it's just a crutch to make up for your lack of skill. Who cares? Some casual with 2% expertise is an easy kill if he's only average skilled. Who really cares? I like going against equally or better geared opponents. It's fun to fight against people who I see everyday in warzones. When I see that 2% guy once a week, I couldn't care less about him. Just killing him accidently with some aoe. Edited January 30, 2012 by Balanque Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taxablemango Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 /agree. I'm pretty sure that this was one of the factors that killed off WAR. Simple fact - gear progression in PVP is bad for the longevity of the (PVP)game. Yep, it keeps those who were there from the beginning happy - but kills any influx of new pvp-ers. PVP population can only go one way. Exactly. People tend to get so caught up in this PvE vs PvP gear competition that they don't think about all the consequences. A system like this may, to some degree, balance on the gear between the two aspects of play, but it creates a barrier to entry in PvP. Think of it this way. Take the most difficult operation or dungeon from this game or any other that you can think of, like ToVL in WAR. Now start telling fresh max level characters that in order to gain PvE gear they have to do this extremely difficult instance. There is no alternative and there is no working your way up through tiers of gear. This is it. That is the atmosphere that sharp PvP gear progression creates for entry level characters. Fortunately, these players still have the option of PvE in order to close the gap to some degree. But doesn't that create the same system that people wanted to avoid? Forcing PvPers to PvE for gear? I have accepted that this is a system where everyone besides the first wave of 50s are required to smash their face into a wall repeatedly before PvP becomes consistently fun. Occasionally I have good fights where the gear difference, both in Expertise and raw stats, isn't that bad, and eventually the gear won't matter. Hopefully there will be enough people to PvP with when that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delavager Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 This thread, just like all other threads complaining about Expertise, is from someone who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Expertise isn't the issue, it's GEAR which is the issue. Expertise by itself is fine, the issue is that the person killing you has better GEAR (with multiple stats on it, not just expertise). If you remove Expertise, the end result will be the same. I don't want to go into the solution of issues that surround this as it's in another 20 threads that the OP didn't bother reading before making a copy, but again, Expertise by itself isn't the issue, it's GEAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor_Grammar Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 /agree. I'm pretty sure that this was one of the factors that killed off WAR. Simple fact - gear progression in PVP is bad for the longevity of the (PVP)game. Yep, it keeps those who were there from the beginning happy - but kills any influx of new pvp-ers. PVP population can only go one way. Well I guess that would solve the FOTM reroll problem then, huh? But really you have the same problem in PVE, you need the last tiers to get the next. Stopping progression in that environment sounds absurd. You need PVP progression as well, or once again PVE gear will dominate in PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balanque Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 He is right to some point, that getting some items must be hard, but on the other hand - if he is so damn right, then he and you are the whiners that are crying for class nerfs. In other words, you (btw, BW too) fail to see that expertise is causing some stupid nerfs to classes, operatives are only a start, cause the problem scales more with them than any other class. No, never felt that operatives had to be nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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