Both sides of the AC respec debate have legitimate points. So what's the answer?

[songofprecept]

But one could argue that the ability to spacebar through voiced NPC interactions is a way to circumnavigate content that far and away was the most expensive part of the game. Now let's imagine that this feature wasn't added at launch. Would you be for or against adding it? Being able to spacebar through content certainly shortens the game play experience, and I'd say that's a flawed model for longevity too.

 

The people who do that though are more than likely not their target audience, and bearing in mind they are still recording future patches worth of content you can assume it'll never be.

 

If it wasnt there at launch is a totally separate argument, it is what it is, we get to decide with our subscription...or not..

Edited January 29, 2012 by songofprecept

[illgot]

You really have no idea about game development let alone the business end of it. WoW was very successful at doing what it did which, in the main, was appealing and appeasing a whole new demographic to the genre.

 

Its now 8 years in and the games up, it will still appeal to a particular type of gamer, but there is a big chunk of playerbase lout there who want something more, different, storybased, fps based whatever. That appears to be what BW are after not the 'i want to cliuck button and get instant gratification' crowd.

 

Just my opinion.

 

You are absolutely right! I mean look at TOR, it's nothing like World of Warcraft! There is absolutely nothing about TOR that says Bioware is trying to copy the success of World of Warcraft...

[dyves]

This is so stupid. Aion has the same mechanic, you start with the general class and then specialise into the advanced class at L10. Yet you don't see the amount of whining and complaining there about it like people here seem to do about the AC's.

 

All the time I played Aion, I haven't seen any threads demanding an AC respec or people complaining 'I want to be able to switch from Templar to Gladiator' or 'we should be able to respec from chanter to cleric!'

 

Exact same mechanic, yet zero complaining about it on Aion forum boards. People here are so odd.

[dyves]

You are absolutely right! I mean look at TOR, it's nothing like World of Warcraft! There is absolutely nothing about TOR that says Bioware is trying to copy the success of World of Warcraft...

 

BW is using the themepark design model, but with their own interpretations and distinctions added to it, like VO/cutscene deliver of quests incl dialogue choices, Companions, Crew Skill crafting, cover mechanics, etc.

It is ironic how some people complain that it's too much like WoW, and others (sometimes the same ppl??) complain that it does things too differently from WoW. Can't please some people, apparently.

[owenthorn]

simple answer is,

 

put it in the game, if you want to have dual specs, tank/heals, tank/dps, dps/heals dps/dps

 

then you do it and ENJOY your game, if you do not want it, DO NOT DUAL SPEC your OWN toon,

 

problem solved

[illgot]

This is so stupid. Aion has the same mechanic, you start with the general class and then specialise into the advanced class at L10. Yet you don't see the amount of whining and complaining there about it like people here seem to do about the AC's.

 

All the time I played Aion, I haven't seen any threads demanding an AC respec or people complaining 'I want to be able to switch from Templar to Gladiator' or 'we should be able to respec from chanter to cleric!'

 

Exact same mechanic, yet zero complaining about it on Aion forum boards. People here are so odd.

 

There was a huge demand for AC respec in Aion during beta and right after it was released. One of the issues is that the the different ACs in Aion required vastly different gear with different stats. Not the case for 6 of 8 of the ACs in TOR.

 

Another issue was that it was a Korean game and people found out quickly that the Korean Devs couldn't give a crap about what anyone outside of Korea thought. And the non Korean devs had absolutely no power to change the games core aspects.

 

I still support Bioware creating the option and having it as a Micro-transaction. Let them create revenue for the people unwilling to reroll.

Edited January 29, 2012 by illgot

[DirtyDozen]

During a Q&A at Comic-con last year they said they had decided they were going to allow changing your AC but it wouldn't be in at launch. Obviously that means it will be added after launch.

 

But I had also read that they hadn't decided how to implement it, like whether to make it one time only vs. escalating cost like respecs except more rapid escalation to discourage it from being done frequently.

 

There are videos and transcripts out there for that Q&A session but I'm on my phone so it's a PITA right now.

 

Anyway, I haven't heard anything different or more official since then. I wish they would address this in an Official statement on the website somewhere.

[Speedtorch]

I understand both sides of the issue and I would like to see a compromise. As previously stated, I would like to see a trial period to level 15 or until you complete your final class mission of the capital world. Just a small taste of what's to come before you make a final decision would be a great benefit.

 

For those of you who don't want to feel they have wasted their time playing both AC's, well, I also don't want to feel like I have wasted my time leveling up an AC that I'm not enjoying. In most MMOs, I can try a different class and get a basic feel for it in the first few levels. here, I must level to 10 before I can get a feel for the class. My main toon, I recreated a few times because I was flip flopping between ACs. I finally decided on Sith Sorcerer (on a side note I'm absolutely SICK of Korriban). What I have found myself doing for alts now is, playing 2 toons up to level 10 on a different server to test out each AC. Then, on my main server, I can choose the AC I enjoy most. To me, this is an absolute waste of my time, but I'd rather spend a few hours now then feel like my entire time to 50 is a waste. I absolutely agree an AC switch at 50 is bad idea. Having a trial period available to try out each AC I think would satisfy the player base enough, without causing too much turmoil among those who don't want it.

 

Everyone compares this to WoW, but this is not WoW. And this is not EverQuest 2 either, but I'm going to compare it to that as it's a bit more relative. EQ2 tried this tiered class structure at first too. To start, you had 4 archetypes: Fighter, Scout, Priest, Mage. At level 10 you then choose your class, (3 choices) and at level 20 you then chose your sub-class (2 choices) resulting in 24 different class possibilities. Just like SWTOR, the class structuring caused people to request the ability to change their class/subclass. And just like SWOTR, there was the argument among the players as to why or why not changes should be allowed. Eventually, the class tree structure was removed from the game, and EQ2 now has you choose your primary class at character creation.

 

Due to the way SWTOR is designed, I think starting at level 1 isn't the right idea, but I do feel that a trial period would be a nice compromise so that NO ONE feels that they have wasted time playing.

[Speedtorch]

my stance is that i'm against the ac respec however.....

 

i would be happy if you could respec but with one or more of the following terms:

 

1. long quest chain to respec ac

2. cost lots of credits or some commendations

3. required to pay real $ to respec ac

4. can only be done every so often like once in a 6 month period or something like that

5. you lose a level every time you respec and have to earn it back like lvl 50 goes to lvl 45 has to earn levels back.

6. lose affection with your companions

 

also i believe that after you respec any abilities that is unique to your new ac you do have to pay credits to train for so you dont just get them free.

 

I could live with the above as well.

 

1. Absolutely acceptable

2. Acceptable if planned properly. I can see issues with people spending all their credits on the respec, then having none for gear changes (if required) making them useless.

3. Acceptable.

4. Acceptable, but maybe limit it to every 2-3 months, especially if charging real cash.

5. Interesting. This would at least force people to play their new AC a bit to get used to it and collect some new gear (if changes required it).

6. I don't agree with this one. You get the same companions regardless of AC, so I don't see why their affection should go down if you were to change AC.

[LeonBraun]

My intention is to address concerns from both sides. I see that your concern is that work you've already invested in characters subject to the current system would be wasted. Thank you.

 

This is not your intention in this thread.

 

Your intention in this thread is to take a personal gripe that you want to be able to change your own AC because you made a poor decision, and try to stir up the community to back you in asking for a bad change that was not intended for the way the game works.

[DarthSeidhr]

This is not your intention in this thread.

 

Your intention in this thread is to take a personal gripe that you want to be able to change your own AC because you made a poor decision, and try to stir up the community to back you in asking for a bad change that was not intended for the way the game works.

 

This is what I told the last person who thought they were a mind reader.

 

I'm happy you think you know my intent. It must be wonderful to go through life with such an insightful mind. In reality, I'm not personally greatly invested in the idea of AC respecs. Whether AC respec is added will have no bearing on my enjoyment of the game or my decision to continue giving BioWare my money. This is simply an issue that I've seen brought up numerous times in threads that invariably degenerate into back and forth arguments about the same few points. Through my readings of these threads though I have gleaned a some legitimately stated concerns from both sides. I would simply like to make sure there isn't anything I'm missing before I rework my original suggestion.

 

If I find that new concerns are raised that make the idea of AC respec completely untenable I am more than happy to write that conclusion into my new post. I practice science in the real world, and as such I am always willing to change my mind in the face of new evidence.

[Surakis]

I don't see any argument for being able to change your AC... It's 10 levels (3 hours) of work to get a new AC...

 

Warlocks in WoW can't change over to become Mages... Sentinels should not be able to become Guardians.

 

Warlocks and Mages don't start as the same root class in WoW either... and if you are going to use "just re-roll" for the AC issue, then it should be the same for the respec issue.

[Surakis]

You are absolutely right! I mean look at TOR, it's nothing like World of Warcraft! There is absolutely nothing about TOR that says Bioware is trying to copy the success of World of Warcraft...

 

I heard that Chevy copied Ford and has 4 tires on their cars! Why are they copying them!!!!

[Matte_Black]

there is absolutely no replay value in playing a new character with only a different AC.

 

Except for 1 AC, every other class shares the same armor type and stats as their opposing AC.

 

"Absolutely no replay value" is overstating it but, if you read closely, I am speaking more to the paradigm BioWare is operating under than stating the point of view as unimpeachable fact or a the right philosophy.

 

That said, the plot differences you can have through gender, race, alignment, filling your levelling with space runs, additional bonus quests or PvP apparently amount to little to you, which I can respect. Coupled with your signature though, I do sort of wonder if you are hung up on judging SWTOR based on other games or the game you want as opposed to what it is trying to be.

[RobNightfall]

Concern:

Allowing AC respecs would mean that Bounty Hunter/Trooper or Consular/Inquisitor can switch between healer/tank/dps while the other 2 base classes (and mirrors) can only switch between tank/dps or heal/dps.

 

Concern:

DPS-Bobby who have played his Marauder to 50 respecing to Jugg and having no idea how to tank in SWTOR.

 

But as has been stated in this thread. I don't have to give you a reason why AC respecs shouldn't be allowed. It's not. End of story.

 

It's like asking people to give a reason why people should not be allowed to create lvl 50 fully geared characters. It's not how the game works.

 

If you really think it's not being considered for a down the road option you're not really thinking. Enough QQ has hit the forums since beta to make it a consideration. I'm not saying they will, I'm not saying they won't, I am saying they will be and most likely already are looking at it. A thread with a true, viable pros and cons list is a logical approach to figuring out whether or not this really is a great idea or a horrible idea, i.e. no knee jerk emotional reactions, no the game will be doomed if posts, etc.

 

To the OP: sorry I don't have much to add to your original query. If I was BW I'd try it out on the test server with a big post about how respec is an experimental option and we're checking to see how it impacts the game etc. and then sit back and watch for 3-6 months. That way you know what the headaches will be and how much players will actually enjoy or hate it before going fully live with it.

Edited January 29, 2012 by RobNightfall

[SnoggyMack]

What is your concern with AC respec?

 

Class balance. MMOs have a history rife with nerfs made in the name of class balance. Opening up AC respecs makes it even harder to balance the classes.

 

Some boundaries do need to be maintained to keep basic gameplay mechanics viable. Class structure in an MMO designed around class structure needs to maintain the boundaries of class structure.

 

/thread

[DarthSeidhr]

Class balance. MMOs have a history rife with nerfs made in the name of class balance. Opening up AC respecs makes it even harder to balance the classes.

 

Some boundaries do need to be maintained to keep basic gameplay mechanics viable. Class structure in an MMO designed around class structure needs to maintain the boundaries of class structure.

 

/thread

 

This is a point I've not read before. Would you please elaborate on how an AC respec would effect class balance? It seems to me that class balance would be the same with or without AC respec because the eight AC's would still exist, and the player base would still be utilizing all of them concurrently.

[mattdell]

Why is this still being debated? BW said before launch that AC will never be able to be changed. End of story. They make the game, they ultimately decide the rules. Having 15 threads of the same topic does not change that. Choosing your class is something that happens at level 10 in this game, not at the character creation like other MMO's. Get used to it, or perish. Thats the bottom line.

[DarthSeidhr]

Why is this still being debated? BW said before launch that AC will never be able to be changed. End of story. They make the game, they ultimately decide the rules. Having 15 threads of the same topic does not change that. Choosing your class is something that happens at level 10 in this game, not at the character creation like other MMO's. Get used to it, or perish. Thats the bottom line.

 

That's odd. Others have claimed BioWare stated they wanted to allow AC respec sometime after launch, but they weren't sure how to implement it. Can you site a source for your claim? And even if what you say is true it doesn't mean BioWare can't decide to change their mind down the road.

[Senatsu]

I am against AC respeccing. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand why it's convenient to be able to respec and I even share many of the reasons, but I just don't feel that it's necessary. Choosing your AC should be as important as choosing your class. What you're basically doing when you choose your class is: you pick a base, then you pick a playstyle specialization (AC), then you pick how you want to specify that specialization (talent tree).

Being able to redo your talent trees is one thing, but your AC is just a massive part of your character and it's supposed to change the entire feel of the gameplay for each base-class. Whether you feel BW manage to portray that or not, is irrelevant, but that is at least what they mean by having ACs. If that was not the point, then they wouldn't have ACs in the first place.

[samht]

What you're asking is not to change your spec, but change your class.

 

As stated... If I play a DK in WoW, should I have the ability to change at will to a Paladin.

 

Your class is your class.

 

Last I checked DK and Paladin don't have similar abilities, the same starting zone, the same story.

 

But you should be able to change between a blood dk (tank), Frost DK (duel-weapons/mêlée damage) and Unholy (pet and dots).

 

If you ask me advance classes is SWTOR are like specs in wow. A Holy paladin feel completely different than Protection paladin.

 

Druid is like 4 classes: Mage, Rogue, healer, tank. If a druid existed in SWTOR it would be two class spread across 4 Advance classes.

 

I would love to see real argument that doesn't say you can't turn a holy paladin in wow into protection paladin...wait you can. Argument void.

Edited January 29, 2012 by samht

[samht]

I think they will add ac respecs because 1 they said they well and 2 the advance class trainers wouldnt be hanging out around the fleet if we were not going to use them. When wow launched there was no skill trees. Edited January 29, 2012 by samht

[Senatsu]

I think they will add ac respecs because 1 they said they well and 2 the advance class trainers wouldnt be hanging out around the fleet if we were not going to use them. When wow launched there was no skill trees.

They said they would NEVER allow AC respeccs, talent tree dual speccs on the other hand will be added. And I doubt the Advanced Class trainers are still around because they plan to go against their own word and add such a massive game-changing feature so close to launch to make it worth those NPCs being in the game since beta. Either they have just not thought those NPCs through, or they have other plans for them.

 

However, Blizzard is famous for saying on thing the first moment and then turning completely 180 after 2 seconds, so the odds are BW will do the same at least once.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Senatsu

[Gohlar]

No you will never be able to change classes.

 

lol.

[mattdell]

Last I checked DK and Paladin don't have similar abilities, the same starting zone, the same story.

 

But you should be able to change between a blood dk (tank), Frost DK (duel-weapons/mêlée damage) and Unholy (pet and dots).

 

If you ask me advance classes is SWTOR are like specs in wow. A Holy paladin feel completely different than Protection paladin.

 

Druid is like 4 classes: Mage, Rogue, healer, tank. If a druid existed in SWTOR it would be two class spread across 4 Advance classes.

 

I would love to see real argument that doesn't say you can't turn a holy paladin in wow into protection paladin...wait you can. Argument void.

 

You can change between blood, frost, and unholy, yes.

You can also do that in this game. It's called your spec. The talent tree that pops up, that's what you can change.

 

However, you cannot change your advanced CLASS, because it's a CLASS, like DK, Pally, Warrior.

 

What you perceive is, undeniably, your own perception. However, your perception is wrong in comparison to game design.

 

Stop debating this. It WILL NOT HAPPEN.