Taugrim's "Iron Fist" 25/14/2 PVP Tank Spec [Video]

[Zarcharias]

I have messed with various specs for the last 4 weeks or so, and this particular spec taugrim posted is VERY similar to my favorite so far.

 

I played parakeet for about 30 hours in ilum, switching between cells, etc.

 

Lastnight, I switched back to my shield/tactics with gut/frontline.

 

Only difference is I have not tried grabbing those +% mitigation skills, though if you really notice a difference, I will give it a shot. I am running full supercommando.

 

I prefer the shield cycler to be maxed though, possibly even at the expense of smoke grenade, due to its limited utility. Because I tend to live a long time, I end up out of bullets and waiting on my reload. Nothing sucks more than trying to hammer shot down 3 different bad guys with a sliver of life when a single neural surge and pulse cannon would vaporize them. more ammo > accuracy debuff for things my shield and armor will mitigate anyhow.

[ururururu]

Despite the already very defensive way of this build, i think you "might" be right about the Rebraced armor points. Still i guess it comes down to 2% more dmg or 16% armor ( 4% more survivability more or less, right? )

 

Though without Incendiary Round, you dont want to loose out on the Gut dot. Especially for the PvP encounters. Those dots can win the day

I was thinking the opposite on gut. It's just an ammo drain IMO. You should be stockstrike, HIB, ion pulse, interrupts instead. Gut is really meh without full tactics. These dots don't kill people very often. Very rare you stop a cap that wins the day. Depends on your spec.

 

Rebraced armor is really great against some opponents, but useless vs. others. If you've played with ion vs plasma you already know what more armor does.

[taugrimtaugrim]

and so far, so good.

 

<<snip>>

 

It's definitely a great PVP offensive tanking build.

 

And that's exactly what it's intended to be. Offensive PVP tank.

[taugrimtaugrim]

I was thinking the opposite on gut. It's just an ammo drain IMO. You should be stockstrike, HIB, ion pulse, interrupts instead. Gut is really meh without full tactics. These dots don't kill people very often. Very rare you stop a cap that wins the day. Depends on your spec.

 

With my current gear (top-end damage from tooltip), here's what the damage looks like for the single-target abilities that cost 2 Ammo (damage types indicated by el, en, i, and k)

• Gut = 698 (k) + 821 (i) = 1519
  
• High Impact Bolt = 1586 (en)
  
• Ion Pulse = 926 (el)
  
• Sticky Grenade = 1224 (k)
  
• Stockstrike = 1484 (k)*
  

 

* SS has +45% Crit Chance and +30% Crit Bonus damage.

 

Per the numbers above, I wouldn't call Gut an "ammo drain" per se.

 

For this spec it's obviously not as good SS and HIB, and it doesn't get the 6% Crit Chance and 4% damage debuff of IP.

[ururururu]

and then you add 1 point to what you would have done with gut. like 2% more elemental damage, 8% more armor, buff storm, whatever.

 

its useful against targets that aren't getting healed. but we already beat those..

 

anyway it seems I'm not going to convince you. c'est la vie.

[Soulmourne]

I was thinking the opposite on gut. It's just an ammo drain IMO. You should be stockstrike, HIB, ion pulse, interrupts instead. Gut is really meh without full tactics. These dots don't kill people very often. Very rare you stop a cap that wins the day. Depends on your spec.

 

Rebraced armor is really great against some opponents, but useless vs. others. If you've played with ion vs plasma you already know what more armor does.

 

I dont really use it as much as a dmg wise ability, as i use it to stop the opposite team to capture nodes. Getting overrun, last man standing? I make sure to dot em up and keep em from capping while im off to be revived.

It can be a tedious tactic - for instance Alderaan when i pop down on the speeder bike, dot up, die and rince repeat. Basicly holding one point solo for being capped during a longer period of time. Its happend before and it will happend again.

 

So for me its more utility then actual dmg. Another tool to use from the Vanguard Bat belt if you will ( On a sidenote, i do like the animation and slashing sound hehe )

[Mavic]

Tried this spec last night, and really enjoyed getting gut in my dmg. It's not huge but it definitely makes a difference in my overall dmg. It's far from an ammo drain, and I can put it on everyone that comes near me. 1v! I find that it really does enough to force the retreat when I'm defending a door or turret solo.

[taugrimtaugrim]

and then you add 1 point to what you would have done with gut. like 2% more elemental damage, 8% more armor, buff storm, whatever.

 

its useful against targets that aren't getting healed. but we already beat those..

 

anyway it seems I'm not going to convince you. c'est la vie.

 

It's not a matter of convincing or not convincing.

 

NoGoal posted a fantastic comment on my blog overnight about why the Armor talent doesn't provide much value in practice.

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/27/iron-fist-25-14-2-pvp-tank-spec-for-swtor-powertech-vanguard/#comment-7211

First, armor only works against kinetic and energy damage. It doesn’t work against elemental and internal damage.

 

Second, classes that use strong attacks mitigated by armor usually have debuffs.

 

Third, the % is based on your base armor, not base+60% from your tanking ´stance´.

 

Last, maths! Let’s say you have 5000 armor rating @ L50.

- 5000 armor rating = 31.65% damage reduction [5000 / ( 5000 + 200 * 50 + 800 ) * 100]

- 8000 with tanking stance (+60%) = 42.55%

- 8800 [5000+(5000*0.6)+(5000*0.16)] with the talent = 44.90% (+2.35%)

 

Most will have the -60% talent to boost Rail Shot (HIB) so:

- 2000 (5000-60%) armor rating = 16.62%

- 3200 = 22.86%

- 3520 = 24.58% (+1.72%)

 

It’s obviously not bad but, in your template, you lost 25% chance to vent 8 heat when struck, 1% shield chance and 3% damage on Flame Burst (Ion Pulse) and RB (Gut) for it.

 

If you want to keep the armor talent, I’d take the (25%) chance to vent heat and drop Oil Slick (Smoke Grenade). It’s great on void star as people are usually packed but everywhere else it won’t affect many targets (not sure of the range. is it 10m?). It shines when people have Defense on their armor (and enemies don’t have accuracy) but they’ll rather want offensive stats. It costs 8 heat (1 ammo), 60s cd..

 

3% damage is a small loss but I find it more useful than -5s on Grapple (Harpoon).

[taugrimtaugrim]

I dont really use it as much as a dmg wise ability, as i use it to stop the opposite team to capture nodes.

 

So for me its more utility then actual dmg. Another tool to use from the Vanguard Bat belt if you will ( On a sidenote, i do like the animation and slashing sound hehe )

 

Tried this spec last night, and really enjoyed getting gut in my dmg. It's not huge but it definitely makes a difference in my overall dmg. It's far from an ammo drain, and I can put it on everyone that comes near me. 1v! I find that it really does enough to force the retreat when I'm defending a door or turret solo.

 

^

 

What these people wrote.

 

Vanguard Bat Belt FTW!

[Fafryd]

I am a big fan of having either Gut or IR in a build for the key reason that it delays capping objectives. Two of the three warzones is all about interrupting these caps and a reasonably long ticking DOT can be a key factor in delaying the cap and winning the WZ.

 

Speaking from personal experience, I held a 1v3 (me being the one) in defense of the left turret in Alderaan for 3 minutes where I died many times and kept them from capping by a combination of rotating gut, IR and SG (primarily gut) to allow me the time to take the speeder back to continue the defense. Guts lack of a cooldown means you can clearly burn a lot of ammo but in that situation, it was perfect.

[Husofanten]

So I played enough rounds with that spec to approve it pre level 50(46 atm)

I hit harder,I dont lack survivability and often I get the most medals(even if we lose).

Gonna save up some commendations now, so I dont hit 50 unprepared

Edited January 31, 2012 by Husofanten

[jedistreen]

On my server, repub vs. repub matches are pretty much the only hutball matches I get.

 

Anyways, on to Taugrim: Man you are amazing. Just made a powertech for pretty much PvP only, and I happen upon this on the trooper forums while surfing since I play a commando. Every single video you make is informative, and you've been pretty much my go-to source for PvP guides.

 

I will definitely be trying this out.

[happyhappyjoy]

Man Taugrim - all these accolades. But ya know - if you write guides and post videos all that happens is you get your face sat on by the enemy team in every match.

 

If I have a hutball against Taugrim - what am I gonna do - I'm gonna make a beeline for him every match.

 

When we seem Rome-Fu - what do we do? We sit on him the entire match. He's got a sticky on the pvp forums, he's probably a bioware employee or something, so he deserves to be wrecked every time we see him, right? ... I noticed he's tank spec'ed now too.

 

Hayduke Smith

Adjunta Pall

INFANTRY

[ururururu]

It's not a matter of convincing or not convincing.

 

NoGoal posted a fantastic comment on my blog overnight about why the Armor talent doesn't provide much value in practice.

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/27/iron-fist-25-14-2-pvp-tank-spec-for-swtor-powertech-vanguard/#comment-7211

 

I don't really like the example of an HIB (armor penetration) shot, which is far higher than any other armor penentration ability in the game. Other armor penetration is likely 20-30%, e.g. marauder/sentinel.

 

I'm surprised someone who sits in ion stance and has played tactics/assault as much as you have is going to just discount armor. More armor is just an win vs. some classes, e.g. juggernaut/guardian.

 

It wasn't stated but rebraced armor is amazingly useful in pve. So if (like me) you don't like respec'n put those two points in rebraced armor and keep your pvp spec... forget about oil slick & absorption boost.

[taugrimtaugrim]

Man Taugrim - all these accolades. But ya know - if you write guides and post videos all that happens is you get your face sat on by the enemy team in every match.

 

If I have a hutball against Taugrim - what am I gonna do - I'm gonna make a beeline for him every match.

 

Take a number

 

This is what I have experienced in every game since 2008. If you make PVP videos or guides, it comes with the turf.

 

If people want to focus-fire me, they're welcome to it. With this spec I'm usually one of the least squishy members of my team, and I'll often drag opponents fixated on killing me away from the critical action in a match.

[taugrimtaugrim]

I'm surprised someone who sits in ion stance and has played tactics/assault as much as you have is going to just discount armor. More armor is just an win vs. some classes, e.g. juggernaut/guardian.

 

The issue isn't with Armor. It's with the way the talent works.

 

Did you read what NoGoal wrote? He tested and wrote that the 16% buff to Armor is not modified by the Armor buff provided by the tanking stance. It's a very small increase in mitigation against the least threatening damage in the game.

 

By all means, if you like the talent, spec for it. I just don't advocate it due to the mechanics.

 

It wasn't stated but rebraced armor is amazingly useful in pve. So if (like me) you don't like respec'n put those two points in rebraced armor and keep your pvp spec... forget about oil slick & absorption boost.

 

That's why this thread was titled "PVP Tank Spec" not "PVE Tank Spec".

 

Oil Slick in boss fights seems like a good boost to Avoidance, given how hard bosses and some elites hit.

 

But again, take the talents you believe in. I'll do the same. We just see things differently.

[Cheeseblaster]

Thanks for this thread. Very informative, and as a fairly new player to the MMO thing, explains everything very well in a way I can understand.

 

Kudos!

 

Looking forward to trying this out on one of my Lvl 30 troopers. But my question would be how did you allocate your points along the way? Did you concentrate on Shield first and then branch out?

[Zarcharias]

T, all,

 

If you run 21+ shield builds like this one (I prefer gut and shield cycler(2)) what are you doing gear-wise?

 

I have full supercommando (champion) including accessories. I have dupes that I have not turned in, and so far I am 1 BM token for 10 bags...so apparently BW has decided I will stay in champ gear for a while.

 

When i do not get zapped by the guard bug (cant guard target etc) and am able to change guard targets as needed, I put out solid prot numbers, but IMO my DPS suffers as I am consistently 3rd of 4th place and with how long I stay in the fight, that is too low.

 

I am pretty sure that after testing various builds, I will be sticking with a slight variation of this 25/14/2, and now must address the gear issue.

 

My thoughts are that the 5% bonus on supcom set is useful, as is the extra endurance on the pieces, but I want more power (and crit/surge ideally). I run the eliminator gun, partly because i refuse to carry a plumbing tool, partly for the tech power, but where else can I balance things?

 

Perhaps this is more of a topic for another thread, but at the same time, it is an important aspect of running a ion/shield spec at a time when the mechanics for mitigation are broken enough that we still need semi-decent dps.

 

I am sure T will test things out for us, but he is at the mercy of the RNG and is just catching up form his reroll.

 

so.. anyone? bueller?

[taugrimtaugrim]

Looking forward to trying this out on one of my Lvl 30 troopers. But my question would be how did you allocate your points along the way? Did you concentrate on Shield first and then branch out?

 

On live, I leveled as Tactics to 36, and then Assault Spec from 37->50.

 

If you are leveling as Shield Specialist, put your first 21 points into the tanking tree to get charge, and then from there it's up to you.

[taugrimtaugrim]

T, all,

 

If you run 21+ shield builds like this one (I prefer gut and shield cycler(2)) what are you doing gear-wise?

 

Iron Fist is built to be an offensive tank spec, so you want to gear according.

 

The only must-have piece of tank gear is a Shield offhand, so you can benefit from the 15% Shield Chance benefit from the tank stance. While Shield is underwhelming, there's no point in not leveraging a free stat benefit.

 

In terms of set bonuses, you have two options:

1. get Combat Tech 4-pc, leave the mods as-is
   
2. get Supercommando 4-pc, swap out the Defense and Shield mods for DPS ones
   

 

The rest of your gear should have DPS stats on it. In most cases that means either Eliminator or Combat Tech, but there are a few Combat Medic pieces that have +Crit and such.

Edited February 1, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[naniyo]

personally i really enjoy this spec :23/4/14

but as i was reading your suggestions i may try out another build as well.

 

i hope this link works, this is my build :http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GoMrdMdoMZMMZbIbbk.1

 

i really enjoy your "journalistic speech style" intelligent streams.

 

good luck taugrim,

[sotacram]

Nice video.

[angryca]

Iron Fist offers much more utility and survivability. The difference when taking focus fire is night-and-day.

 

Do you really find vanguard durability to be that great? I can notice a small difference in some situations but I get destroyed under any focus fire or if I use guard aggressively. I was hoping for more of a warhammer feel where, if I don't want to do much damage, I can focus on a disruptive and support play-style.

 

I guess this is what we get when shields don't do much in pvp.

[Kenmuir]

Taugrim, I would take a note of the changes to Assassin/Shadows in the PTR/next patch. Bioware seems to disapprove of hybrid specs, and they went about it by nerfing the effectiveness of hybrid play styles instead of making it more beneficial to spec all the way to the top of a tree. Which doesn't seem to unreasonable considering only a couple classes can make a viable hybrid spec. But, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future that some of the lower talent points in Tactics started to require High Energy Cell.

[Fajing]

But, I wouldn't be surprised if in the future that some of the lower talent points in Tactics started to require High Energy Cell.

Feb 21 would be epic.