Taugrim's "Iron Fist" 25/14/2 PVP Tank Spec [Video]

[ZNICK]

Strangely enough this is the EXACT build I used for the 1st few weeks after hitting 50, and used a lesser version of it while leveling, lol. (I just built up to it as I got points)

 

I found it to be versatile, mobile, and favors the PT that prefers melee over range. Play a while, you'll be able to recognize your style. It's not better or worse than the parakeet, because they're mean to do two different things.

 

This is a great build that "works". It gives you a strong RP/RB combo, and for those saying it's not as good in the two other warzones... the dot on RB keeps them from capping the 3 positions or setting a bomb on a door as well. Go the the target and spam...

 

Z

[Croakies]

Quick question... Should I bother using a shield generator or should I go with a power generator?

[BlazingShadow]

Quick question... Should I bother using a shield generator or should I go with a power generator?

 

If you're a shieldtech, SHield Generator otherwise get out.

 

If you're anything other than a shieldtech, ignore the shield stats and take whatever has better stats.

[Croakies]

If you're a shieldtech, SHield Generator otherwise get out.

 

If you're anything other than a shieldtech, ignore the shield stats and take whatever has better stats.

 

Thanks. I was just wondering because of how I was reading that shield stats were almost useless for pvp.

[Ozsavsta]

Hey Taugrim. Posted on your vid the other night, quick response too thanks.

 

I have to agree with an earlier post that boggles over super charge gas cylinder. You state the longer tick time and DAMAGE are good. Whilst the longer tick time can be good for keeping them in combat longer and allowing for rail shot to come off cooldown, I think the 'damage' aspect is a damned joke. 50% of nothing, is still nothing and thats close to what Ion gas Cylinder gives imho.

 

Im not 50 and most people dont give credence to those that arent, I know you're not one of them, but I would love to see, not so much 'justification' but your thoughts I guess on why you would consider SGC to be a good choice when in reality the base talent is quite subpar.

 

Cheers

 

P.S. I still wanna know what the chances of you rolling a op or scoundrel are.. that would be most interesting

[taugrimtaugrim]

Thanks. I was just wondering because of how I was reading that shield stats were almost useless for pvp.

 

Let me reframe what I've previously stated on the matter.

 

If you are running the tanking stance, you get a free +15% Shield Chance. But your Shield Chance is 0% unless you equip a Shield offhand. It's like equipping a shield in a fantasy MMORPG to block.

 

And there are some talents (e.g. Shield Vents) that are worth investing in, since they provide some secondary benefit aside from simply improving your Shield capability.

 

So you should use a Shield offhand.

 

Whether you go heavy on Shield-related talents and stats after the offhand is up to you. I don't, because I don't believe the returns are there for the investment.

 

But I also play an "offensive" beefy tank, and you may want something more durable but with less punch.

Edited January 30, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[taugrimtaugrim]

Strangely enough this is the EXACT build I used for the 1st few weeks after hitting 50, and used a lesser version of it while leveling, lol. (I just built up to it as I got points)

 

I found it to be versatile, mobile, and favors the PT that prefers melee over range. Play a while, you'll be able to recognize your style. It's not better or worse than the parakeet, because they're mean to do two different things.

 

This is a great build that "works". It gives you a strong RP/RB combo, and for those saying it's not as good in the two other warzones... the dot on RB keeps them from capping the 3 positions or setting a bomb on a door as well. Go the the target and spam...

 

Z

 

I wish you had posted it earlier!

 

The majority of specs and posts I've seen for PVP tanking - aside from Carolina Parakeet - invest too heavily in stats and talents that don't provide meaningful benefit in PVP.

[taugrimtaugrim]

I have to agree with an earlier post that boggles over super charge gas cylinder. You state the longer tick time and DAMAGE are good. Whilst the longer tick time can be good for keeping them in combat longer and allowing for rail shot to come off cooldown, I think the 'damage' aspect is a damned joke. 50% of nothing, is still nothing and thats close to what Ion gas Cylinder gives imho.

 

I didn't say that the damage is good.

 

I was talking about the comparative benefit between Prototype Cylinders and Supercharged Ion Gas, i.e. +25% damage for 1 talent point in SGC is much better than the 8% damage for 1 talent point you get from Prototype Cylinders.

 

The upfront damage from the tanking stance proc is decent, but the DoT is very low even with talents.

 

The reason I recommend taking Ion Overload, Neural Overload, and Supercharged Ion Gas is because they synergize to make your Rocket Punch guaranteed to proc your tanking stance direct damage and a DoT for 9-seconds, which happens to be the same duration of the cooldown for RP.

 

EDIT: and of course the DoT from RP opens up your Rail Shot

 

Im not 50 and most people dont give credence to those that arent, I know you're not one of them, but I would love to see, not so much 'justification' but your thoughts I guess on why you would consider SGC to be a good choice when in reality the base talent is quite subpar.

 

I'm not one of the people who believe that you have to be 50, a Battlemaster, etc before your opinion counts.

 

You don't have to be 50 to understand the mechanics for a class that you play. Certainly there are things you may not be able to experience before 50, but most of the talents you can experiment with well before 50.

 

I see Battlemasters who still don't understand the class mechanics, like this Vanguard:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=235914

 

P.S. I still wanna know what the chances of you rolling a op or scoundrel are.. that would be most interesting

 

I don't play a DPS Op or Scoundrel now because it would be too easy for me to kill opponents, considering I could dictate when the fight starts and bury them with my opening damage sequence.

 

That's getting addressed in 1.1.1 - hopefully they're not getting overnerfed because the redux in armor pene from 50->30% plus the 20% damage redux on the opener are pretty significant changes.

 

My plan is to play some classes that people often state are underpowered or are classes people frequently asked me to play, e.g. the Warrior classes. I rolled a Sentinel about a week ago and will be leveling that, and possibly other, classes in between playing my Vanguard.

Edited January 30, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[Ozsavsta]

Fair enough mate. I thought the extra dot was to leave them open for Rail, I was just amused you stated damage in the same sentence cause ion gas aint crap for that

 

Keep up the good work.. shame about the op or scoundrel.. would still be humorous and if ur looking for an underpowered class. roll the assassin, just my two cents, its the only class I 'DONT' sweat in pvp.. I usually laugh and keep beating on everyone else while they wail on me

[taugrimtaugrim]

Fair enough mate. I thought the extra dot was to leave them open for Rail, I was just amused you stated damage in the same sentence cause ion gas aint crap for that

 

Oh yes, that too, most definitely.

 

RP -> Rail Shot and then go from there.

[Sanzibal]

I'm tempted to try combining this with a more elemental flame bursty angle. That way I would take advantage of the defense issue, and also avoid all defense by keeping my flame burst working the way it is now. While I see the fun of proccing rail shot alot, I either forget alot or it just doesn't proc, and you would be surprised how many players simply melt without any kind of rail shot. It's like gravy to me.

[doublechees]

Only thing I disagree with is speccing into oil slick and supercharged ion gas cyclinder. Damage mitigation and increase are very minimal. Along with extra dot length isn't going to matter most the time in a group pvp setting for landing rail shot. Maybe if ion damage gets boosted may it be worth it but until then, I believe the points are better spent in albaltive upgrades. This makes the cd the same as our 20% dmg reduction shield, increases our abosorption rating by 6%, AND both abilities can be bound to one key, giving us another nice 1 minute survival cd.

 

 

Also agree on improved hitman. Our other choices for these 2 points are:

 

-10 second cd reduction on electro dart

-+ 30% movement speed after jet charge

- +16% armor ( roughly a 2 % dmg reduction from armor related attacks)

 

So calling these points wasted is pretty mute as our alternatives are lack luster, locking a spell out for 4 seconds while on a 6 second cd is pretty good, We also have jet charge on a 15 second cd for our second interrupt meaning we can lock healers down.

 

This spec truly shines in group play as your role is healer peeler with range grapple and 30 m range stun and guard, and enemy healer disrupter. We have enough damage to put pressure on healers to stop healing other targets and have to use cc on us or start healing themselves. Trying to drop aoe's for the sake of doing damage and not stopping door caps/ node camps isn't what this spec was made for.

 

Side note, thanks for taking the time to make your videos I followed your videos while I played rift and now on swtor and the quality you put in them is always top notch.

[taugrimtaugrim]

Only thing I disagree with is speccing into oil slick....Damage mitigation...very minimal.

 

Oil Slick doesn't provide mitigation, it provides avoidance.

 

By dropping the Melee and Ranged Accuracy of debuffed targets by 20%, depending on their stats you could be increasing their "miss" chance by 20%.

 

That's significant against classes that have a lot of their damage generated from Melee or Ranged attacks as opposed to Force and Tech attacks. E.g. Snipers/Gunslingers with their Snipe and Ambush (Charged Burst and Aimed Shot) and the Warrior archetypes.

 

Only thing I disagree with is speccing into...supercharged ion gas cyclinder. Damage increase...very minimal. Along with extra dot length isn't going to matter most the time in a group pvp setting for landing rail shot. Maybe if ion damage gets boosted may it be worth it but until then, I believe the points are better spent in albaltive upgrades..

 

What you wrote in red above (emphasis mine) is my understanding of what the talent does. If I respec I'll try to confirm.

 

If you are considering Ablative Upgrades (Ceramic Plating), in terms of Absorption Rating keep in mind that only applies when you Shield, which can only happen if all of the following are true:

1. the attack is Melee or Ranged, not Force or Tech

2. the attack was not Defensed (i.e. avoided)

3. the attack was not a Crit

 

Side note, thanks for taking the time to make your videos I followed your videos while I played rift and now on swtor and the quality you put in them is always top notch.

 

Thanks, good to see you here in SWTOR.

[taugrimtaugrim]

Interesting build, how does it do in PVE tanking? Can you offtank decently or take lead in flashpoints still?

 

FWIW, I tanked my first SWTOR instance tonight, Hard-Mode Directive 7, and the spec held up fine even with only 3 pieces of "tanking" gear from PVP: Champion legs and weapon and Centurion shield offhand.

Edited January 30, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[doublechees]

Oil Slick doesn't provide mitigation, it provides avoidance.

 

By dropping the Melee and Ranged Accuracy of debuffed targets by 20%, depending on their stats you could be increasing their "miss" chance by 20%.

 

That's significant against classes that have a lot of their damage generated from Melee or Ranged attacks as opposed to Force and Tech attacks. E.g. Snipers/Gunslingers with their Snipe and Ambush (Charged Burst and Aimed Shot) and the Warrior archetypes.

 

 

 

What you wrote in red above (emphasis mine) is my understanding of what the talent does. If I respec I'll try to confirm.

 

If you are considering Ablative Upgrades (Ceramic Plating), in terms of Absorption Rating keep in mind that only applies when you Shield, which can only happen if all of the following are true:

1. the attack is Melee or Ranged, not Force or Tech

2. the attack was not Defensed (i.e. avoided)

3. the attack was not a Crit

 

 

 

Thanks, good to see you here in SWTOR.

 

 

 

Melee and ranged accuracy apply mainly to auto attacking as tech and other special abilities have a higher accuracy rating. I.e. an operative with no gear has a 90% chance to auto attack hit you while he has a 100% chance to hit you with a tech hit. The absorption is just a bonus having our 15% heath hot on the same CD as our 20% dmg shield is the big bonus as you can activate both abilities simultaneously. The design of oil slick just makes it not worth the GCD for me. If it was an target able aoe. I know operatives get a tech cleanse ( which I believe removes the oil slick debuff) I am not sure what other classes have a cleanse ability, but one of the major targets for this debuff have an instant cleanse on this debuff makes it a real downer for me.

 

These points can be trivial,

[riedeas]

I didn't say that the damage is good.

 

I was talking about the comparative benefit between Prototype Cylinders and Supercharged Ion Gas, i.e. +25% damage for 1 talent point in SGC is much better than the 8% damage for 1 talent point you get from Prototype Cylinders.

 

The upfront damage from the tanking stance proc is decent, but the DoT is very low even with talents.

 

The reason I recommend taking Ion Overload, Neural Overload, and Supercharged Ion Gas is because they synergize to make your Rocket Punch guaranteed to proc your tanking stance direct damage and a DoT for 9-seconds, which happens to be the same duration of the cooldown for RP.

 

So you can keep a target chain-snared as long as you can RP them. Snares are off the Resolve mechanic and always applicable.

 

EDIT: and of course the DoT from RP opens up your Rail Shot

 

 

 

I'm not one of the people who believe that you have to be 50, a Battlemaster, etc before your opinion counts.

 

You don't have to be 50 to understand the mechanics for a class that you play. Certainly there are things you may not be able to experience before 50, but most of the talents you can experiment with well before 50.

 

I see Battlemasters who still don't understand the class mechanics, like this Vanguard:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=235914

 

 

 

I don't play a DPS Op or Scoundrel now because it would be too easy for me to kill opponents, considering I could dictate when the fight starts and bury them with my opening damage sequence.

 

That's getting addressed in 1.1.1 - hopefully they're not getting overnerfed because the redux in armor pene from 50->30% plus the 20% damage redux on the opener are pretty significant changes.

 

My plan is to play some classes that people often state are underpowered or are classes people frequently asked me to play, e.g. the Warrior classes. I rolled a Sentinel about a week ago and will be leveling that, and possibly other, classes in between playing my Vanguard.

 

Just wanted to point out that Supercharged Ion Gas, does not increase the duration of the slow. The slow only lasts 2 seconds no matter what

[Sookster]

My vanguard (which I don't play often) has a similar spec to that iron first build (who doesn't like to smash heads with a buttstock and knuckler) but I like the parakeet build on my PT better for some reason.

[Rabbitofdoom]

Just wanted to point out that Supercharged Ion Gas, does not increase the duration of the slow. The slow only lasts 2 seconds no matter what

 

Yes and i am considering actualy droping the snare talent completly. Both of our gap closing skills have 3s root meanig that our only 100% chance snare will fit inside the root duration.

[taugrimtaugrim]

Just wanted to point out that Supercharged Ion Gas, does not increase the duration of the slow. The slow only lasts 2 seconds no matter what

 

My bad, you're correct.

Edited January 30, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[Rabbitofdoom]

http://imageshack.us/f/15/swtor2012013021123780.jpg/

 

Some random pug wz screen.

[taugrimtaugrim]

Melee and ranged accuracy apply mainly to auto attacking as tech and other special abilities have a higher accuracy rating.

 

That's not the case for some classes.

 

E.g. for Sniper/Gunslinger, their main cast-time nukes Snipe (Charged Burst) and Ambush (Aimed Shot) are classified as Ranged attacks. Many of the Rage (Focus) building abilities for Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights are classified as Melee attacks.

 

If you don't want to take my word on why a -20% Accuracy debuff for 18s against the bread-and-butter attacks of some classes isn't crippling, check out what a Sniper had to say about this:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=239938

Let me preface this with a little about my experience in SWTOR so far. I am a sniper, I played Sniper throught the few beta weekends that i was invited to attend. I have been level 50 for around 4-5 weeks now and have been PvPing for alot of the time i am online. I am currently Rank 63 with a few Battlemaster pieces and rest Champion.

 

The problem i am seeing as i and others are progressing through the PvP aspect of this game, is the lack of Tech Attacks in the Snipers arsenal. Every single one of our fundamental Sniper attacks are classified as range attacks and as such are subject to both rolls when it comes to calculating hit/damage numbers.

 

If anyone pays close attention to the streaming scene you will know of Ed Park aka Taugrim, a very knowledgable player of many MMOs who has a very informative blog. His blog concerns mostly the Bounty Hunter class, but the post i am highlighting here, http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/ , is what opened my eyes to the problems we may face in the future.

 

I will highlight the main portion that pertains to my thoughts in this thread.

[Ecimon]

Firstly, a thousand thanks of those awesome guides on your blog, they were just what I was looking for.

 

I gotta say, the Iron Fist really feels like the spec for me. I'm only lvl 23 atm, but I'd very much like to get familiar with the spec I'll most likely be using when I hit 50. So here's where my problems lie:

 

I'm still a little bit confused of gearing for the spec (soloing/levelling and pvp), should I go for dps gear or more tanky outift?

 

Also, speccing while levelling, should I get as high as I want to on shieldtech, and after that start getting some points from advanced prototype?

 

The spec looks really promising, especially the fact that I might be able to solo some heroic 2's (I've been doing so-so this far), as my playtimes are rather odd and I'm not seeing people of my levelrange that often.

 

Thanks again, your advices are most appreciated!

[taugrimtaugrim]

Firstly, a thousand thanks of those awesome guides on your blog, they were just what I was looking for.

 

You're welcome!

 

I'm still a little bit confused of gearing for the spec (soloing/levelling and pvp), should I go for dps gear or more tanky outift?

 

This is an offensive tank spec, so go with DPS gear. You'll have plenty of base mitigation from talents and the tanking stance while leveling. Just remember to equip a shield offhand.

 

Also, speccing while levelling, should I get as high as I want to on shieldtech, and after that start getting some points from advanced prototype?

 

Yes, that sounds fine.

[VarekRayth]

Just out of curiosity because I didn't see it anywhere, what is your keybind set up?

[Ecimon]

Heh, just one more question.

 

What is it exactly that makes oil slick that interesting? From where I stand it looks like a rather 'meh' talent, especially considering pvp. I was wondering if I'm missing some crucial point here, or would do I just aswell if I invested that point into maxing out shielded vents?