An educated look at the Operative nerf.

[Hearst]

(This post regards the PvP aspects of the Operative concealment spec. How this nerf will affect PvE is even more egregious and should be obvious to everyone.)

 

My main toon is a 5/5 Battlemaster Powertech Pyro. Recently, out of boredom... with nothing to do really, other than my dailies, I decided to level an Operative to get a feel for the class.

 

This class does not need to be nerfed, and let me tell you why.

 

I've leveled my Operative to 50 and done about a hundred 50 bracketed warzones. I've also fought operatives/scoundrels plenty on my Powertech, having logged probably over 1000 matches at this point. Just a bit of credentials on my part, so you guys will know that I'm not just some Operative player who's going out of his way to defend his class against all logic.

 

My first point would be utility. How is an Operative useful in Warzones? What can it do?

 

Well, I've found that it can really only do one thing: burst damage. The class has very little utility... In Huttball, for example, Operatives spend most of their time in stealth... trying to catch up to other players (who are moving faster typically, thanks to not being stealthed). Whenever an Operative does get up to a group, he has to stop and think for a few seconds. If he hops into group combat, chances are he's going to kill 1 person and then get facerolled. Vanish has a 2 minute cooldown when talented, so you really only get 7 max in a 15 minute game. 7 "oh snap" moments to escape from overwhelming adversity, flee, and run away to regroup.

 

So what can an Operative really do? Well, they can kill one person extremely fast. Do you realize how SMALL the impact of killing 1 person in a 8 vs 8 Huttball game is? It really doesn't accomplish a whole lot, unless it's a clutch stoppage of a ball runner.

 

Let's compare this utility to my Powertech's (keep in mind, the same goes for mostly any other class on the game, even you light armor folks are more survivable than Operatives). The thing that makes other classes great, and more helpful for your team are their sustained damage. I can put up higher DPS totals, and probably 75%+ of an Operative's burst as my Powertech Pyro. 90% armor penetration Railshot spam, all of that good stuff.

 

Not only that, but as a Powertech I have heavy armor, a lot of health, and I'm very survivable with the Energy Shield ability and all. Not only that, but my DoTs do a considerable amount of damage that will prevent people from capturing turrets/planting bombs/defusing.

 

I don't want to drone on about this forever, but it seems to me that almost any other class on the game contributes more to its team in Warzones than Operatives. Operatives are hunters... they stalk around in stealth, pop off some fast burst kills... but that's really ALL they can do.

 

All of the talk of them being overpowered, in my experience, comes down to one thing. People, individually, get knocked onto their face and either killed, or have a large portion of their health disappear in a few seconds... so they rage, say "Omg! This is so unbalanced!" and go to the forums to QQ about the class... but I've got to say, after fighting a ton of Operative/Scoundrels (and winning most of the time, even when ambushed), this is just a base overreaction by people who do not understand the classes' shortcomings.

 

Let's recount the scenario that leads most people to thinking this class is overpowered. You get ambushed, you lose a crapload of health... but have you ever thought about how you can deal with that? On my Powertech, if an Op pops out of stealth and nails me with Hidden Strike... I burn my CC break ability and instantly pop my 50% damage mitigation shield, preventing their burst from taking as much health as it normally would. At this point, I've survived their first volley. So, what can the Operative do now? My resolve bar is full (Hidden Strike fills it up 100%, so you can't be stunned again until it ticks down), and they honestly don't have the sustained damage to kill me. If I hit them with a stun, then a DoT, then a couple of 4.5-5k railshots... they're almost dead themselves, and they can only vanish and run away... if it's on cooldown. If it isn't, they're dead.

 

And if my method for countering their burst doesn't work? Well, then I'm going to die, most likely. So, what does that really mean? Absolutely nothing... because as an Operative has taken the time to single me out, away from the group on the objective (if he did this near my team, he'd get killed 90% of the time), my team is most likely going to accomplish it's goal... and they'll have one less player there to help them resist our efforts.

 

This proposed nerf of Operatives takes away the 1 thing it can do... kill people in a burst with a large frontload of damage. It will break Concealment spec. It will, most likely, ruin the class mechanics altogether. And why? Because people get angry that they're dying 1 vs 1... in a TEAM BASED PvP OBJECTIVE GAME?

 

It makes very little sense, when you think about it objectively.

 

I will take my Powertech's utility and sustained damage ALL DAY over my Operative's. The class makes for some pretty numbers, occasionally. Some nice hits, and some devastating 1 vs 1 potential, and I am -absolutely- fine with that... because it does not really help their team much and impede my team from winning.

 

Yeah, so you're going to die 1 vs 1 if they get the jump on you most of the time. How is this a problem? Respawn, run back, PLAY THE OBJECTIVE and they most likely won't even attack you again. If they do, they'll expose themselves to group combat where they have very little utility and very little chance to survive or make much of an impact.

 

My conclusion is that Operative/Scoundrels are probably the least impactful classes on the game when it comes to helping your team win in Warzones. I honestly cannot think of any other class that contributes less.

 

Whenever you die 1 vs 1 and you get angry... let that reaction go, and take a look at the big picture. It seems BioWare is going to nerf/buff things by forum QQing alone, as opposed to proper testing and metrics... so you're not helping anything by running to the forums and shouting for nerfs. Because when they nerf Operatives, it's going to make the strengths of other classes all the more apparent.

 

Powertechs, Rage Juggernauts, Sorcs, and pretty much everything else will be complained about next, because they'll be easier to notice. It's a slippery slope. Think about it.

 

This is not a 1 vs 1 game. A class should not be nerfed for excelling at 1 vs 1 combat (especially when utterly handcuffed in groups).

 

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I'll try you answer you as promptly as possible, but WARNING: I do actually play the game, so I don't just sit here trolling the forums all day.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Hearst

[SpawnMorePsi]

How do you know BioWare is nerfing a class based on Forum QQ? How do you know there is no metrics? Just because you don't got a combat log, doesn't mean BioWare doesn't got internal numbers to go after. This point made your whole post seem biased. I'd Remove it. (Not the post, The obvious crying about stuff you have no clue about)

 

Also, The Nerf is justified. If it's overdone, It will be changed again. The game is new and there is no competitive scene, They can still do plenty of these changes to get the game to the right spot. Perfect balance will never be achieved, but this might be a step in the right direction. Right now they're able to pick off weaker classes and players inside a 3 second stun. There is no way in hell you'll have your CC breaker up every single time an Operative comes stabbing you in the back. There is no reason you should be dead before you got time to react. Or are you implying rogues 1 shooting cloth was a good design in WoW? It sure sounds like it.

 

As we got no visible metrics and only can trust BioWares internal numbers, we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. Right now I'm seeing a lot of Operatives crying foul before anything has even happened. For all you know this will have a minimal impact in the end and you can still kill people 1v1 without any problems.

Edited January 28, 2012 by SpawnMorePsi

[Hearst]

How do you know BioWare is nerfing a class based on Forum QQ? How do you know there is no metrics? Just because you don't got a combat log, doesn't mean BioWare doesn't got internal numbers to go after. This point made your whole post seem biased. I'd Remove it. (Not the post, The obvious crying about stuff you have no clue about)

 

Also, The Nerf is justified. If it's overdone, It will be changed again. Right now they're able to pick off weaker classes and players inside a 3 second stun. There is no way in hell you'll have your CC breaker up every single time an Operative comes stabbing you in the back. There is no reason you should be dead before you got time to react. Or are you implying rogues 1 shooting cloth was a good design in WoW? It sure sounds like it.

 

As we got no visible metrics and only can trust BioWares internal numbers, we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. Right now I'm seeing a lot of Operatives crying foul before anything has even happened. For all you know this will have a minimal impact in the end and you can still kill people 1v1 without any problems.

 

How do I know? Because I've played the class now... I've fought against it plenty of times, and I find there's absolutely no justification for it.

 

Secondly, as to Operatives being able to pick off people... That's what the class does. It's really the only thing it does well. Once again, this is a TEAM game. There are no 1 vs 1 PvP arenas, therefore, how it performs 1 vs 1 picking people off is wholly irrelevant considering it does not contribute to its team very well.

 

It's apparent to me why the nerf is happening... and it isn't because of extensive testing. My testing was extensive enough to show that there is no real foundation for it.

 

If you can explain to me how Operatives killing people 1 vs 1 before going back into stealth, playing the lone wolf role is breaking Warzones, please do. In my mind, it has very little effect.

[ExiledOne]

How do you know BioWare is nerfing a class based on Forum QQ? How do you know there is no metrics? Just because you don't got a combat log, doesn't mean BioWare doesn't got internal numbers to go after. This point made your whole post seem biased. I'd Remove it. (Not the post, The obvious crying about stuff you have no clue about)

 

Also, The Nerf is justified. If it's overdone, It will be changed again. The game is new and there is no competitive scene, They can still do plenty of these changes to get the game to the right spot. Perfect balance will never be achieved, but this might be a step in the right direction. Right now they're able to pick off weaker classes and players inside a 3 second stun. There is no way in hell you'll have your CC breaker up every single time an Operative comes stabbing you in the back. There is no reason you should be dead before you got time to react. Or are you implying rogues 1 shooting cloth was a good design in WoW? It sure sounds like it.

 

As we got no visible metrics and only can trust BioWares internal numbers, we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. Right now I'm seeing a lot of Operatives crying foul before anything has even happened. For all you know this will have a minimal impact in the end and you can still kill people 1v1 without any problems.

 

Justified you say, well then alright!

 

Nerf guardin/juggernaut crits for sweep at 5k on 5 different targets.

Nerf tracer missile spam.

While you're at it could you possibly nerf sorc lightning/sage pebble spam?

Hey how about making assassins pure melee, take all their SI powers away, you know that lightning on their double sabers gives them armor buffs right?

 

There's no way in hell you'll have your cc breaker up in time you say?

Guess what, an operative's cloaking screen has a 2 minute recharge buddy, there's no way in hell an operative will have their "Get out of death free" card up either.

 

What I'm seeing is people whining about being caught 1v1 and screaming a class is killing them when they should be with their teams -anyway-, you stay with at least one teammate and that operative/scoundrel can't do ANYTHING as he'll die to that second team member before he can kill you.

 

TL;DR, stop trying to be John Rambo and learn how warzones work before crying a class is overpowered.

[caultonpos]

I dont care if i dont contribute to hutball. Killing is my passion and I love owning people one on one.

 

As long as post nerf if I can own people of equal gear I will be happy.

[Iwin-]

Nice post Hearst. But i really hope they can make 1v1 balanced as well without every class looking like the next.

[Drakovicz]

How do you know BioWare is nerfing a class based on Forum QQ? How do you know there is no metrics? Just because you don't got a combat log, doesn't mean BioWare doesn't got internal numbers to go after. This point made your whole post seem biased. I'd Remove it. (Not the post, The obvious crying about stuff you have no clue about)

 

Because the whole Operative nerf was revealed 2 days after a major patch that completely changed the balance by nerfing the buff stacking and introducing lvl 50 PvP brackets. Whatever metrics they are using, I doubt that they managed to get enough data to justify such a huge nerf in such a little period of time.

 

Right now they're able to pick off weaker classes and players inside a 3 second stun. There is no way in hell you'll have your CC breaker up every single time an Operative comes stabbing you in the back. There is no reason you should be dead before you got time to react. Or are you implying rogues 1 shooting cloth was a good design in WoW? It sure sounds like it.

 

The problem is in this: If you take away that huge burst damage from burst whats left? What is the role of the Operative class then? Its not utility. Its not survivability. Its not mobility. Its not sustained damage. And apparently its not burst damage either. So why should a competitive team choose a Concealment Operative over... well any other dps class? It brings nothing to the table that all other classes cant do, just better and with less difficulty.

 

To be honest at this point I would prefer if the reason of the nerf WAS thanks tp the player pressure, because the alternative means that the balance team has no idea *** it's doing.

 

As we got no visible metrics and only can trust BioWares internal numbers, we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. Right now I'm seeing a lot of Operatives crying foul before anything has even happened. For all you know this will have a minimal impact in the end and you can still kill people 1v1 without any problems.

 

You don't exactly need a 20 years of experience with class balancing and a College degree from Game theory to know that a flat 20-50% nerf to the key abilities of a class will have an extremely negative impact to its overall performance.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Drakovicz

[Exsqeeze]

How do I know? Because I've played the class now... I've fought against it plenty of times, and I find there's absolutely no justification for it.

 

Secondly, as to Operatives being able to pick off people... That's what the class does. It's really the only thing it does well. Once again, this is a TEAM game. There are no 1 vs 1 PvP arenas, therefore, how it performs 1 vs 1 picking people off is wholly irrelevant considering it does not contribute to its team very well.

 

It's apparent to me why the nerf is happening... and it isn't because of extensive testing. My testing was extensive enough to show that there is no real foundation for it.

 

If you can explain to me how Operatives killing people 1 vs 1 before going back into stealth, playing the lone wolf role is breaking Warzones, please do. In my mind, it has very little effect.

 

You have taken one role of the Operative and extrapolated that to all situations. I can be a very effective team player, defending a target in stealth taking out the first player who attacks the ball carrier/AA Gun/ Door then adding some bleeds on at least 3-4 enemies to stop them planting the bomb/capturing the carrier. By which time I have opened up chat typed (They are moving on X or Y) perhaps used one of my 7 dissapears and waiting to interrupt the enemy teams attempted capture/plant whilst backup finds it way.

 

What if in huttball that 1 on 1 was against the enemy healer, does that not help the team. Team play all depends on how the individual plays, sure there are operatives who go out lone wolfing, but I am an operative who plays for the team and the win and I feel that I can surive most situations and help the team out astronomically with my long range interrupts and close range burst damage.

 

Corrosive Dart has possibly saved the target being planted on a huge number of occasions far more quietly and effectively than Mr Guardian running and jumping in then getting killed by the enemy team. I can be inconspicuous, I can appear and dissapear to the advantage of my team, not the my own advantage.

[SpawnMorePsi]

How do I know? Because I've played the class now... I've fought against it plenty of times, and I find there's absolutely no justification for it.

 

Secondly, as to Operatives being able to pick off people... That's what the class does. It's really the only thing it does well. Once again, this is a TEAM game. There are no 1 vs 1 PvP arenas, therefore, how it performs 1 vs 1 picking people off is wholly irrelevant considering it does not contribute to its team very well.

 

It's apparent to me why the nerf is happening... and it isn't because of extensive testing. My testing was extensive enough to show that there is no real foundation for it.

 

If you can explain to me how Operatives killing people 1 vs 1 before going back into stealth, playing the lone wolf role is breaking Warzones, please do. In my mind, it has very little effect.

 

You. One person, Have done enough testing to show how this is all based on Forum QQ? While BioWare, sitting on Internal data from every Operative/Scoundrel player in the game, doesn't? Yup, You're either a troll or biased. Take your pick.

 

And Guardians in Tank spec is supposed to survive. That's what they do. Even they are getting shafted by Operatives in a few seconds. So we should buff all other classes then? (because if you buff Guardians Surviability, the rest of the classes needs more damage...) Instead of nerfing one? What? WHAT?

 

To the WZ. How do you not see the problem? You can in a matter of second turn the game from a 8v8 to a 8v7. If you pick the healer you shafted the enemy quite hard. A game shouldn't be decided by who got the most Operatives/Scoundrels. That's ********. You might say your team is in a 7v8 position because you're not there to begin with, but I call ********. You are. You are just not visible. If you're implying that the enemy team only needs 10 seconds give or take (For you to find the healer, Position yourself and roflstomp him.) to destroy the rest of your teammates, I'm surprised. Even if you don't kill him, the enemy team must've then all turned to you to stop you. That gives your team some strong momentum.

 

And to put this in words I know people understand; A rogue in WoW killing off a teammate in 5v5 Arena in 3 seconds, Is that balance to you? Apparently so. I mean, There is no impact what so ever.

 

You have taken one role of the Operative and extrapolated that to all situations. I can be a very effective team player, defending a target in stealth taking out the first player who attacks the ball carrier/AA Gun/ Door then adding some bleeds on at least 3-4 enemies to stop them planting the bomb/capturing the carrier. By which time I have opened up chat typed (They are moving on X or Y) perhaps used one of my 7 dissapears and waiting to interrupt the enemy teams attempted capture/plant whilst backup finds it way.

 

What if in huttball that 1 on 1 was against the enemy healer, does that not help the team. Team play all depends on how the individual plays, sure there are operatives who go out lone wolfing, but I am an operative who plays for the team and the win and I feel that I can surive most situations and help the team out astronomically with my long range interrupts and close range burst damage.

 

Corrosive Dart has possibly saved the target being planted on a huge number of occasions far more quietly and effectively than Mr Guardian running and jumping in then getting killed by the enemy team. I can be inconspicuous, I can appear and dissapear to the advantage of my team, not the my own advantage.

Edited January 28, 2012 by SpawnMorePsi

[SpawnMorePsi]

Justified you say, well then alright!

 

Nerf guardin/juggernaut crits for sweep at 5k on 5 different targets.

Nerf tracer missile spam.

While you're at it could you possibly nerf sorc lightning/sage pebble spam?

Hey how about making assassins pure melee, take all their SI powers away, you know that lightning on their double sabers gives them armor buffs right? .

 

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

 

Whats your point? That the class that's regarded as the most OP get's the nerfhammer first? Applauds, your brain apparently knows how to get turned on. Let's see if it can do more then that. The others are in cases were they've been building up way longer then the Operative has been doing. They can't just redo it after wasting 2 GCD's either.

 

There's no way in hell you'll have your cc breaker up in time you say?

Guess what, an operative's cloaking screen has a 2 minute recharge buddy, there's no way in hell an operative will have their "Get out of death free" card up either. .

 

You won't need a get out of Death Free card if your target is dead before it reacts. As implied, its a team game, He won't have his CC breaker up 90% of the time because he had to break something else. You shouldn't balance a game around having a CC breaker that you ONLY use on ONE class because the rest won't murder you inside of it. If you can't see this, You're biased.

 

What I'm seeing is people whining about being caught 1v1 and screaming a class is killing them when they should be with their teams -anyway-, you stay with at least one teammate and that operative/scoundrel can't do ANYTHING as he'll die to that second team member before he can kill you.

.

 

I've been with my team plenty of times, I'm dead before the first heal is done on me. If my second team member isn't either 1. A guardian that built up for the before mentioned 5k Sweeps or 2. A Scoundrel, Im dead. Unless My teammates got their stuns up. Yet again that brings up a weird situation. Should we balance the game around having stuns you MUST save for ONE class? Doesn't work.

[Rahl_Windsong]

How do you know BioWare is nerfing a class based on Forum QQ? How do you know there is no metrics? Just because you don't got a combat log, doesn't mean BioWare doesn't got internal numbers to go after. This point made your whole post seem biased. I'd Remove it. (Not the post, The obvious crying about stuff you have no clue about)

 

Also, The Nerf is justified. If it's overdone, It will be changed again. The game is new and there is no competitive scene, They can still do plenty of these changes to get the game to the right spot. Perfect balance will never be achieved, but this might be a step in the right direction. Right now they're able to pick off weaker classes and players inside a 3 second stun. There is no way in hell you'll have your CC breaker up every single time an Operative comes stabbing you in the back. There is no reason you should be dead before you got time to react. Or are you implying rogues 1 shooting cloth was a good design in WoW? It sure sounds like it.

 

As we got no visible metrics and only can trust BioWares internal numbers, we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. Right now I'm seeing a lot of Operatives crying foul before anything has even happened. For all you know this will have a minimal impact in the end and you can still kill people 1v1 without any problems.

 

You do not have to know if you play the class, it becomes COMPLETELY obvious if you know how to play a Scoundrel or an Operative in PvP. The ONLY thing this class is good for is stealthing in and taking out the healer and even that they will fail most of the time unless a ranged dps class backs them up.

 

And now that power has been taken away from us so we are as of now completely useless in PvP, thanks Bioware for ruining my endgame ...thanks so much.

[Hearst]

You. One person, Have done enough testing to show how this is all based on Forum QQ? While BioWare, sitting on Internal data from every Operative/Scoundrel player in the game, doesn't? Yup, You're either a troll or biased. Take your pick.

 

And Guardians in Tank spec is supposed to survive. That's what they do. Even they are getting shafted by Operatives in a few seconds. So we should buff all other classes then? (because if you buff Guardians Surviability, the rest of the classes needs more damage...) Instead of nerfing one? What? WHAT?

 

To the WZ. How do you not see the problem? You can in a matter of second turn the game from a 8v8 to a 8v7. If you pick the healer you shafted the enemy quite hard. A game shouldn't be decided by who got the most Operatives/Scoundrels. That's ********. You might say your team is in a 7v8 position because you're not there to begin with, but I call ********. You are. You are just not visible. If you're implying that the enemy team only needs 10 seconds give or take (For you to find the healer, Position yourself and roflstomp him.) to destroy the rest of your teammates, I'm surprised. Even if you don't kill him, the enemy team must've then all turned to you to stop you. That gives your team some strong momentum.

 

And to put this in words I know people understand; A rogue in WoW killing off a teammate in 5v5 Arena in 3 seconds, Is that balance to you? Apparently so. I mean, There is no impact what so ever.

 

No. I've done enough testing to conclude that the nerf is unfounded. My testing cannot possibly extrapolate why they are considering this nerf, but I consider it highly likely that it's an overreaction to complaints on the forums.

 

I can't conceive of any other reason.

 

And to the other posters, I understand that a well-played Operative can help his team out by killing people, protecting the ball-carrier, but all of that assistance is pretty much dependent on the burst damage I talked about in my post.

 

Assassins and other classes can also stealth and run across the end-zone for Huttball passes. That's not exclusive to Operatives, so I didn't include it in my analysis.

[Bloodguard]

You. One person, Have done enough testing to show how this is all based on Forum QQ? While BioWare, sitting on Internal data from every Operative/Scoundrel player in the game, doesn't? Yup, You're either a troll or biased. Take your pick.

 

And Guardians in Tank spec is supposed to survive. That's what they do. Even they are getting shafted by Operatives in a few seconds. So we should buff all other classes then? (because if you buff Guardians Surviability, the rest of the classes needs more damage...) Instead of nerfing one? What? WHAT?

 

To the WZ. How do you not see the problem? You can in a matter of second turn the game from a 8v8 to a 8v7. If you pick the healer you shafted the enemy quite hard. A game shouldn't be decided by who got the most Operatives/Scoundrels. That's ********. You might say your team is in a 7v8 position because you're not there to begin with, but I call ********. You are. You are just not visible. If you're implying that the enemy team only needs 10 seconds give or take (For you to find the healer, Position yourself and roflstomp him.) to destroy the rest of your teammates, I'm surprised. Even if you don't kill him, the enemy team must've then all turned to you to stop you. That gives your team some strong momentum.

 

And to put this in words I know people understand; A rogue in WoW killing off a teammate in 5v5 Arena in 3 seconds, Is that balance to you? Apparently so. I mean, There is no impact what so ever.

 

Did I miss the metrics that bioware posted? Didn't they do metrics for years before the game came out? QQ is definitely the reason OPS are getting a nerf. The OP is spot on. Usually the OP dies after they kill the one person they target, so then it is 7v7. Often, if they jump into a group they may not even get to finish the kill.

 

With the bugs the game has you often cannot even get cloaking screen off in time. I have spammed evasion, shield probe and cloaking screen in a host of situations and just clicked a button.

 

You sir have not played a concelament ops. You don't understand that we have NO melee ability that is not on at least a 6 second cooldown. None. And all our out of stealth combat melee attacks are either heavily energy dependent, affected drastically by resolve or based on a "tactical advantage situation", based on shiv, which is on a 6 second cooldown.

 

The hidden move is the only way for an OP to get burst damage of anykind. Maybe I missed something, where else can a 5-6k crit exist on the OP tree? Because 10k crits exist for other classes too.

 

Bioware had metrics on this for years and chose to put it in anyways. They are now backing out because of the QQ here and elsewhere. Don't kid yourself. Either that or they are horribly incompotent. Take your pick.

[bennedict]

I've been playing an Operative a while, not quite 50 yet, but this nerf is unfounded. If you're going to take away our only benefit(killing 1 target fast), then lower CD on Vanish, give us more defenses, lower out of stealth damage and give us more sustained damage(like mercs). To just nerf our output from stealth and not compensate somehow will kill this class for PvP. I know for a fact it will kill it for PvE. I have a hard time in PvE sometimes. I talk to my friends playing every other class and they seem to glide thru everything.

 

So, by all means, if we are killing too fast, change it. But on the flip side compensate with survivability/sustained damage/utility. Until then, I will not be leveling my Operative any longer and will work on my Powertech. MUCH easier to PvE & PvP with.

 

One harpoon or knockback can equal one kill in 2 of the 3 WZ's. knock off a bridge, into firepit means almost instant death. Oprative can't even kill that fast. Give us one of those CC's, i'm happy.

[Rahl_Windsong]

It would not surprise me to learn that possibly no one on the Bioware team even plays the Operative or the Scoundrel, because if they do they would not have taken this nerf to the main servers with out further testing and feedback.

 

It was like they were guessing on what to do, and if that is the case we ALL have reason to be afraid of what is coming in the future. All you have to do now is post. "insert class name here, just killed me so fast I had no time to even react!"

 

Bingo! 20% front end damage nerf! Next!

 

 

[Tiam]

I dont care if i dont contribute to hutball. Killing is my passion and I love owning people one on one.

 

As long as post nerf if I can own people of equal gear I will be happy.

 

Exactly, my thoughts. I can still own one on one so I am fine.

[Rainsfords]

The best way to see how little the devs understand about Operative is to look at the Lethality tree. It's really as if they made a cool sniper tree than chucked it onto the Operative tree without changing anything but skill range. It's pretty obvious this was never tested.

 

Getting back to concealment, all you need to do is take an Operative and any other class to the fourth boss in EV and see who kills the matched mob first. The operative will always come in last, because we are completely dependent on backstab, hidden strike and acid blade. Without those abilities, a Juggernaut will out-dps us. Such a heavy nerf on two of our only three skills that allow us to actually DPS is just crazy. Our 15 energy buff now provides less armor pen than a free, permanent buff that every BH gets at level 12?

 

And our uselessness in Hutball really can't be overstated. If you can't kill a sorc in a single burst, he's going to knock you back and Innervate to full health before you can get back into range to do anything. And once you are there, he's impossible to stop. Sure, you can interupt one heal, but he has two that he can cast quick along with a 1 gcd bubble that absorbs at least 2 gcds of your attacks. God forbid he knocks you off a ledge, as you now have no chance of killing him. Guarded and heavy armor opponent are impossible to burst down, and can do the same thing.

 

A sin is slightly out dpsed by use burst wise but they have way more survivability along with twice as many escape mechanisms as we have. As it stands now, Operative has a great niche of being a 1v1, "pick out the weakest enemy" class. After the nerf patch, Sins will do that job better and there will be zero reason for an Operative to be a part of anything.

[spyderfly]

To only be able to spike one target then die is bad class design anyway. I just hope after this patch they improve other areas of the class within a reasonable amount of time.

[Daize]

Very well written and thought out post OP, tyvm. Hope Bioware is reading.

[Crawler]

good post.

 

game is seriously not about solo kills - most of the time i dont even get the solo kill medal - unless the game is won andi can just lol around. You cant rly say anything about how good op is untill you have some comparison. You can be somewhat usefull in wz if you are good but when comparing to other classes its just not good enough. Only thing that ops do "Good" maybe is fast capturing nodes on aldeeran without alerting enemy about it but that works only vs weak defense and if you can burst the thing or CC .

 

Whine comes coz ppl remember when they got killed by big numbers and in "cant do anything" situation. Honestly ? they can take whole HS , i dont need stealth opener (outside of sleeping dart ;p ) just give the class better dps / survival ratio and gap closer/knockback.

[Molokia]

Very well written and thought out post OP, tyvm. Hope Bioware is reading.

 

Yup, possibly one the the best posts about the upcoming changes on Operative.

[tharnvedra]

But this Armadillo guy said they use metrics to see if abilities are too strong. I cant remember all the words he made up but the tools said operatives do too much damage too fast!

 

To be more serious this might actually be true but what they want to do now is a brutal nerf vs a needed adjustment.

 

My main concern is the utility and not the ability to burst down players in 3-4 CDs while they are knocked down. I want to see the metrics judge the usefullness of a grabble or knock into the acid or fire or all the CC, pushs, jumps, pulls, run speed the other classes bring into PvP. PvP is not a about pure damage most of the time anyways.

 

Concealment is only one tree but the key feature was burst damage. You cant take that away without replacing it with more utility or sustained DPS (even more important for PvE). Before somebody jumps in with the use lethality argument. I still hear Bioware saying all DPS specs should be in 5% range to each other.

 

Overall I see lots of other classes do what we do and I see alot of operatives doing average damage. Perhaps the scaling is a problem and not the abilities. 1-49 and 50 without gear everything is fine. The nerf will hit everybody and not only the 2% overgeared PvP operatives.

 

There are many ways to adjust the initial burst and they came up with some ideas but whoever is in charge shouldnt have used the approach of "How many operatives do we have? 2% of our player base? Use all ideas at once to be sure!"

Edited January 28, 2012 by tharnvedra

[DieselCheezel]

To be honest at this point I would prefer if the reason of the nerf WAS thanks tp the player pressure, because the alternative means that the balance team has no idea *** it's doing.

 

If the nerf is because of player pressure then that also shows that the balance team has no idea *** it's doing.

[sMooMs]

if the 1.5 sec jarring strike does not fill the resolve bar then i think it will be fine, however if it does fill the resolve then imo its extremely unfair to us....

 

with no real defense cds or gap closers, to rely on a 1.5 sec stun and nerfed dps, i coudlnt imagine having a fair shot 1v1 against equaly geared and skilled class "x"(add any class but ops)

Edited January 29, 2012 by sMooMs

[Populism]

A well thought out post. I agree.