An educated look at the Operative nerf.

[OklahomaSooner]

I don't need to play the class to understand that in any MMO, any ability to virtually one-shot someone without them having some chance to defend, gets nerfed. I don't care if it only works 1 time out of 10, it's on an hour long cooldown, etc. It gets nerfed, plain and simple. It is the way of the MMO.

 

We don't have that capability. I realize you are still living the past when buff stacking was still allowed and there weren't 50 brackets, but we fixed those problems.

[caultonpos]

Hello folks,

 

Just wanted to add my six pence to the discussion.

 

I play a concealment operative, who is now level 43. Love the class. It's my main.

 

BUT - it is without a doubt a frustrating class to play when it comes to PvP.

 

All our key abilities are on long cool-downs.

 

 

huh?

 

watch the whole video, run 100 warzones then come back

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=243432

[Lupious]

We don't have that capability. I realize you are still living the past when buff stacking was still allowed and there weren't 50 brackets, but we fixed those problems.

 

Oh rly? I'm lvl 63 valor, in nearly full battlemaster gear (2 pieces champ, rest battlemaster) and I can be taken to less then 25% life before I can even stand up. So yah, problem not fixed. As I said in the previous post, any class/skill/ability in pretty much any mmo that allows you to essentially one shot someone without them defending = nerf. Every game has it at the start, every game nerfs it. Ah the days of my DAOC hunter one shotting people from a mile a way, while in stealth, and then popping back into stealth

Edited January 29, 2012 by Lupious

[OklahomaSooner]

Oh rly? I'm lvl 63 valor, in nearly full battlemaster gear (2 pieces champ, rest battlemaster) and I can be taken to less then 25% life before I can even stand up. So yah, problem not fixed. As I said in the previous post, any class/skill/ability in pretty much any mmo that allows you to essentially one shot someone without them defending = nerf. Every game has it at the start, every game nerfs it. Ah the days of my DAOC hunter one shotting people from a mile a way, while in stealth, and then popping back into stealth

 

What class are you? An Operative can do this to you if they have full PVP gear and you are one of the squishier classes..that's normal.

[JBGames]

Just by mere fact that the patch hasn't came out is a good sign. It shows they arn't ready to go live with it and they are still playing around with the numbers.

[Crawler]

Oh rly? I'm lvl 63 valor, in nearly full battlemaster gear (2 pieces champ, rest battlemaster) and I can be taken to less then 25% life )

 

aand ? you know depanding on your class you can win rather easily with 25% left after op did his burst There are few class-spec combinations that cant win - well thats the issue with them not operative rly - if you build glass cannon you must expect to die fast when ambushed by assassin - and op is the mf-in assassin here.

 

but i give you that classes that can do alot of burst gets nerfed fast and are always struggling to be viable. However classes that just take from half min to infinity to kill you even when you have no f chances to win - takes ages to nerf.

[Lupious]

What class are you? An Operative can do this to you if they have full PVP gear and you are one of the squishier classes..that's normal.

 

LOL @ "that's normal" Essentially one shotting a character in the best pvp gear in the game is "normal." I'm just going to stop talking now. After that comment, I've realized the error of posting on the boards.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Lupious

[TranceRevolved]

Look at vanilla WoW and rogues.

Perfect example.

Kidney shot, cheap shot, blind, gauge, sap.

Most of the times the target could not get out of any of these stuns.

It was perfectly normal to kill target within easy combo:

Cheap Shot, Backstab, Backstab, (gauge), Kidney Shot, Backstab Backstab, eviscerate.

Target dead without being able to do anything. Stunlocked.

Anybody complained? Probably. Did anyone change anything? No.

You know why? Cause they knew thats all that rogues have. Take this away from them and You have fury warrior with leather armor and daggers.

 

Same goes to Ops. Take their stunlock away from them and You have Sentinel/Marauder with dagger instead of lightsabers.

 

Its just silly.

Not even mentioning changes to dmg burst and output which will cripple OPs in PvE significantly.

 

This hit a nerve since I was originally a rogue in WoW lol. Fury warriors did become the fotm until the devs started releasing better gear for fury (took forever). But yeah I agree, the nerf isn't good idea. (Another wow reference) would remind me of how bad balance druids were before Blizzard came to their senses and actually made their wrong a right.

[Motro]

LOL @ "that's normal" Essentially one shotting a character in the best pvp gear in the game is "normal." I'm just going to stop talking now. After that comment, I've realized the error of posting on the boards.

 

Translation: "I am a sorc."

[Hearst]

Keep the posts coming, guys.

 

An interesting discourse... one that's actually been pretty constructive, by and large.

 

I'm standing by my original points.

[-Rinzler-]

Lawl. CC breaker has nothing to do with it. If one class can virtually one-shot another class (and by one-shot I don't mean one hit), in ANY scenario, it's nerfed, in every MMO, and it's deserved. As i said before, I fine with giving them something else to replace to make them more viable in other ways; however, if you can't objectively stand back and see that this needed a nerf, you either play the class (very few people who play a class that gets nerfed think it needs to get nerfed), or.....well we all know what the other option is.

 

Just about every class can one shot an operative.

 

Pushed/Pulled/Knocked into fire = Insta kill with one button.

Pushed/Pulled/Knocked into Acid = Insta kill with 2 buttons (stunned in acid)

Pushed/Knocked of a bridge = Insta kill.

 

What can i do? Not walk across bridges or near fire/acid.

 

ok....

 

And you complain about not having your trinket up.

 

If they ever showed the damage caused by fire/acid/falls in peoples pvps numbers i guantee you operatives would always be at teh bottom of the list, because it is impossible for them to do 16-20k with the click of a button.

Edited January 30, 2012 by -Rinzler-

[Madeira]

This will be the last nerf in quite some time for Concealment Operatives.

 

Its not gonna change much.

 

Accept the fact that when its all said and done your complaints will have no ground to stand on when WE do what we do best regardless of what you think will change post 1.1.1.

 

You'll still cry. We'll still chuckle. No one will be listening.

 

Good game. Good luck.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Madeira

[neurosisxeno]

Oh rly? I'm lvl 63 valor, in nearly full battlemaster gear (2 pieces champ, rest battlemaster) and I can be taken to less then 25% life before I can even stand up. So yah, problem not fixed. As I said in the previous post, any class/skill/ability in pretty much any mmo that allows you to essentially one shot someone without them defending = nerf. Every game has it at the start, every game nerfs it. Ah the days of my DAOC hunter one shotting people from a mile a way, while in stealth, and then popping back into stealth

 

Either you're lying, or don't know what you're doing. I play as a Medicine Op at 50 quite a bit, and with about 350 expertise, am yet to die in a knockdown solely to a Concealment Op. You know why? Cause I know what I am doing. I save my trinket for Concealment Op's since they are really the only class that has any chance of MAYBE killing me quick enough. It goes basically like this;

 

0.0 Operative HS

0.25-0.5 Pop Escape

0.5+ Spam Shield Probe

1.75+ Spam Evasion

 

I never get tagged for more than 30-50% of my hp using that system. Once Evasion goes off I either Debilitate or throw a Flashbang, then start spamming heals on myself. Battle won. At this point I have the upper hand, and can start dealing DoT's and actual damage back while healing myself for substantially more than the Concealment Operative. And I'm the healing class with very little utility. I don't get a knockback, my shield is on a substantial cd and can't generally be used multiple times, and my heals are primarily HoTs with long ramp times. If I can turn the tables against a Concealment Operative as one of the most underwhelming specs in the game, most other people should have no problem.

 

Seriously, what is so threatening that people need to use their CC Break on CD? You should really only save it for Concealment Op's or if you're carrying the ball in Huttball. Save it for things that actually matter people. If you show up to any fight in any game without your key abilities ready, you should be prepared to be at a disadvantage.

[noctred]

Either you're lying, or don't know what you're doing.

 

It's just easier for people to cry on forums than learn how to counter things in-game.

 

I primarily play a medic op also, 604 expertise, and my fights against concealment go the same way. Insta-trinket -> debilitate and you're basically gone. If not, flashbang or shield probe, depending on what they do. Even if I don't have trinket up, their full opening combo takes me to 50% on average if I'm at full health. Once I'm up, debilitate + Rakata medpac and I'm gone.

 

I did play concealment for a few days recently as well - on battlemaster geared targets (I know who they are cause I play with/against them every day), my opening combo typically takes off 50% *at best*. Good sorcs always have static barrier up and absorb the majority of HS damage.

 

Most classes can turn around and smash your face in from 100 -> 0 even when they're at 50% themselves.

[UncleJimbo]

I sincerely fell for the operative players. It's not fun getting used to being in line with other players after you got used to dropping a tank from 100% to 20% in one stun.

As a shield spec vanguard I can say it was never pleasant to see one operative do that.

 

Do not get me wrong, I have nothing against operatives, but considering other classes take time to kill enemies it seems only fair that operatives should to that too. Whenever I am in warzones, my main mission is find the operative, taunt him and guard the operatives target. After taunt effect wears off or if another operative wants to dps my guarded player, we both drop in HP like crazy. That does not seem so fair to me.

 

P.S. I did not level an operative to 50 to tell you the experience from that class point of view. I am expressing the point of view of a vanguard who guards healers and the healer still dies.

 

P.P.S. To all operatives, wait and see what the changes are; chances are you might get compensation for the 1 stun kill nerf.

 

P.P.P.S. To all above posters: don't say you play X class when in your signature you have the name of your main Operative; come on, at least be smart about this.

Edited January 30, 2012 by UncleJimbo

[Mikkeos]

And, what happened once you get up fro mthe floor?

 

Do you, by any chance, smear the Op in all available directions right there?

 

And if your guarded healers die, you are both doing something very wrong - even before the 2nd part of the known nerf hits the operatives.

[noctred]

considering other classes take time to kill enemies it seems only fair that operatives should to that too.

 

Other classes have the tools to kill players over a longer period of time. For a concealment op, the length of the fight is inversely proportional to the chances of success.

[Skurkanas]

I sincerely fell for the operative players. It's not fun getting used to being in line with other players after you got used to dropping a tank from 100% to 20% in one stun.

As a shield spec vanguard I can say it was never pleasant to see one operative do that.[/Quote]

Ironically, killing tanks, especially undergeared ones, seems to be the thing we're best at. I have considerably more problems taking down a shielded Sage/Sorc, than I have killing a Jedi or Vanguard. Good ones can beat me too, but we're good at taking something away that they've come to blindly rely on: Their armour.

Versus us, they have to use other skills - most don't.

 

Do not get me wrong, I have nothing against operatives, but considering other classes take time to kill enemies it seems only fair that operatives should to that too. Whenever I am in warzones, my main mission is find the operative, taunt him and guard the operatives target. After taunt effect wears off or if another operative wants to dps my guarded player, we both drop in HP like crazy. That does not seem so fair to me.[/Quote]

Apples and Oranges, really.

I wouldn't mind if I had to take my time to kill something. The problem at hand is, that I can't.

With our initial burst gone, there are no heavy hitters left. Backstab has a considerable cooldown, explosive probe requires us to drop into cover (which more often than not doesn't work in melee) and overload/shiv/lacerate can easily be healed or mitigated.

 

All the while, we are in melee range with all eyes upon us after the glorified OH **** moment of our opener. Our target is bound to get heal, and we're bound to get focussed. There is no time to kill slowly then.

 

It's different for ranged dd's. It doesn't matter if they kill you in 3secs, because they can kill you from a safe distance, and just tab targets if the one they're hitting atm gets healed. Add to that, that they easily outdamage us even now

 

In summary, give me the safe and easy dps of a merc, or the speed and survivability of a sorc and I'll never look back.

But blatantly taking away the only thing we're good at and offering nothing in return is bad combat design, to say the least.

Not to mention the huge ramifications for PvE, where melee dps is sub-par to begin with

 

P.S. I did not level an operative to 50 to tell you the experience from that class point of view. I am expressing the point of view of a vanguard who guards healers and the healer still dies.[/Quote]

Even though I am testing Concealment atm to see what all the fuzz is about, my main spec is Healing. And like many others here, even with one of the worst survivabilities in the game, I never had much trouble dealing with Concealment Ops/Scoundrels. It's all about knowing your enemy, really.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Skurkanas

[Macheath]

Other classes have the tools to kill players over a longer period of time. For a concealment op, the length of the fight is inversely proportional to the chances of success.

 

Something for which BioWare has failed to take into account when nerfing the Operative. If they want to nerf the burst potential of the class, fine. But increase the sustained damage to compensate. Operatives may be too heavily front loaded, but their DPS over long fights is NOT overpowered.

 

A nerf to burst potential also nerfs sustained damage, due to how this particular class/spec works (you basically use the same abilities to DPS as you do to burst, with the addition of your dots.) It's a short-sighted nerf on BioWare's part for this reason.

 

-Macheath.

[PaZZo]

As an OP and pyrotech i will say the following: Use you damn ranged abilities. did a sorc use overload? drop down use explosive probe and snipe to finish him of. Most PT's and OP's seem assume that they are now a pure melee class and they completly ingore their ranged abilities. In short you cannot be kited unless you act like an idiot.

 

yeah i think mines must be the only operative around that at lvl 50 still uses expl probe/sabo charge and snipe/charged shot. I always thought using an ability that hits like a truck instead of staying there looking dumb after a knockback or desperately trying and failing to catch up if snared wasn't rocket science but apparently it is.

 

 

To all the whiners now. Stop saying "it's the gear" or "it was biochem". You're in denial. The nerf we're taking to our burst is justified. I can complain only on the stun opener to 1.5 secs with full resolve bar, because that is just dumb (my opinion: should be an indipendent skill with low damage, so we should choose between huge damage OR kd).

 

Armor penetration nerf will make almost impossible to kill a tank spec'd guardian/jugg? well fine, that's what they're supposed to do, survive and take a beating, and anyway, why the f**k were you beating on a tank??

 

BAAAAAAW sustained damage now crap because of armor pen in pve and opener nerf. do the math and think again, or just spec lethality, which has >>>> pve capabilities anyway.

 

 

(and my operative hasn't even that much great gear, while my sorc's almost in full champ, so i kinda know what i'm talking about from both sides of the story)

Edited January 30, 2012 by PaZZo

[Skurkanas]

BAAAAAAW sustained damage now crap because of armor pen in pve and opener nerf. do the math and think again

Okay bear with me, for I was never good at math, but I guess I can do this one:

 

If I have three apples and You take one away, I have two apples. That's less than before.

 

Don't tell me you're like that smart*** that argued that we'd actually gain dps, then proceeded to post a longer rotation, taking some 2-3 more GCDs, consequently dealing more damage (duh).

If that isn't flawed logic, I don't know what is

Edited January 30, 2012 by Skurkanas

[PaZZo]

Okay bear with me, for I was never good at math, but I guess I can do this one:

 

If I have three apples and You take one away, I have two apples. That's less than before.

 

Don't tell me you're like that smart*** that argued that we'd actually gain dps, then proceeded to post a longer rotation, taking some 2-3 more GCDs, consequently dealing more damage (duh).

If that isn't flawed logic, I don't know what is

 

dude. it's obvious we'll do less sustained, i'm talkng about how much of a big loss it will be. my "do the math" was meant to be read as in: take a look at how much damage reduction a certain armor value has, etc etc etc. Not really a huge dps loss, still viable for pve, not optimal of course, but conc/scrapper is indeed very pvp oriented tree.

 

if your guildmates are a**holes and will complain because it will take 20 secs longer to down a boss, respec lethality, kkthxbye.

Edited January 30, 2012 by PaZZo

[Velr]

What exactly makes you think Lethality is (much) stronger in PvE?

[gustavovalle]

when the nerf will come im reroll to Assassin.

OP is going death.

[PaZZo]

What exactly makes you think Lethality is (much) stronger in PvE?

 

hard hitting dots? cull hitting like a train and for a good portion unmitigated by armor?

 

btw lethality is awesome for PvP too, it's only that it has less "shock" factor than concealment for obvious reasons, but i'd dare say in a competitive premade v premade enviroment it already is better than concealment in many situations, damn, aoe snare alone makes it worth every point spent in the tree

Edited January 30, 2012 by PaZZo