No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

That was just silly to even go there, dude. Not going to dignify that with a response.

 

I'm not sure how or why it is silly, as it is entirely relevant to the very substance of your post? It's the topic you wrote about when responding. If it was that silly to "go there", then why did you write your initial post?

[Wraiven]

I'm not sure how or why it is silly, as it is entirely relevant to the very substance of your post? It's the topic you wrote about when responding. If it was that silly to "go there", then why did you write your initial post?

 

Because you took the meaning completely out of context. Not playing the fool here, bud. If you want to completely ignore my point by pointing out things that were out of context and way off track, then go right ahead. I don't have time for it. Pretty much, you tried to derail the thread by focusing on a comparison that I had made...even after I self admitted that it was an extreme comparison. Guess that wasn't good enough for you...

[Faulhaber]

Morality goes right out the window, as does fear for any actions made in game that could upset other players.

 

You simply summed all the problem here. Can't agree more.

 

There is a morality problem indeed.

 

In the context of MMOs, it's immoral to roll need an item the character won't use for progression. And nobody needs to teach that, specially to an experienced player. And the majority of new players will reach the same conclusion by themselves alone

 

All the fallacy, no matter how well elaborated, from those defending "need on anything you want" sounds disgusting to the majority.

 

As disgusting as the rethoric from a child molester, on its own proportion, which is the same mechanism, perversion.

 

The "majority" doesn't need to be identified. But those that doesn't agree really need to do so. It starts by the guts of saying what you stand for when you enter the group.

 

I have no fear to state that I would only be rolling need on items that would clearly improve the performance of my character or the group as a whole.

 

But this is the expected behavior. It's not really an etiquette. It's the morality rule.

 

I very much doubt there would be lots with the guts to state they'd be rolling need on anything they want, prior to starting the FP.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Faulhaber

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

Because you took the meaning completely out of context. Not playing the fool here, bud. If you want to completely ignore my point by pointing out things that were out of context and way off track, then go right ahead. I don't have time for it. Pretty much, you tried to derail the thread by focusing on a comparison that I had made...even after I self admitted that it was an extreme comparison. Guess that wasn't good enough for you...

 

"I am utterly shocked at some of the replies I am seeing in this thread. People will say *anything* to prove their point. Morality goes right out the window, as does fear for any actions made in game that could upset other players.

 

You have to ask yourself, would I need on that item, that is not my class, that *is* that other guy's class, if he was a big giant mean looking guy who could Chuck Norris my ninja looting butt?"

 

Those are your words sir. You're shocked? Honestly? You're shocked? What planet are you living on bro?

 

Morality goes out the window? In a video game?? Morality and fear, in game, go out the window? Then you cite a real life example to justify the claim. Again, you're making a real life comparison to ones morals via their actions in the video game. I'm not sure how this is remotely out of context, as it is the very context you introduced your argument upon.

 

Then, you go on to essentially use a real life example of one being intimidated to define why your topic sentence was rational. Which, to be honest, was a poor analogy anyway. Again, I'm not understanding why my criticism is out of place here dude.

 

I'm not ignoring your point, I'm addressing it. It's certainly not out of context, because it's the topic of your response. I'm not trying to derail anything. I'm fascinated by your response because it's quite similar to the OP.

 

So, go back and read my first post, and we can try this again? I mean, if you're going to say something and point fingers at the posters in this thread for their opinions, at least have the courage and integrity to back it up and not dance around what you said.

[dcgregorya]

I think you're taking this a little too seriously. Either that, or you're having difficulty differentiating between fantasy and reality.

 

You do realize that Sith and Imperial characters murder, steal, destroy families, etc during the context of the game right? Poor anti-social behavior? Where is that even coming from? How is that relevant to the discussion? Rolling need on a piece of gear makes one anti-social now? Where am I? I'm confused.

 

How does respecting one's immersion and game play choices, good or bad, make me a bad person exactly?

 

Because these are people on your team who you're just trying to annoy because you know they can't do anything to you about it. Yeah, that makes you a lackluster person. Sorry but it is true. Spawn camping is the same, it's one of those things that you wouldn't brag about in front of your family (assuming they aren't trash themselves).

 

I like how this is in the flavor of I have issues treating games appropriately when you're the one acting out your self-esteem issues in game on other people. Here's the thing, I don't have any need to hide behind the anonymous interwebz because I'm not using this game to soothe my fragile ego .

Edited January 30, 2012 by dcgregorya

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

Because these are people on your team who you're just trying to annoy because you know they can't do anything to you about it. Yeah, that makes you a lackluster person. Sorry but it is true. Spawn camping is the same, it's one of those things that you wouldn't brag about in front of your family (assuming they aren't trash themselves).

 

I like how this is in the flavor of I have issues treating games appropriately when you're the one acting out your self-esteem issues in game on other people. Here's the thing, I don't have any need to hide behind the anonymous interwebz because I'm not using this game to soothe my fragile ego .

 

Lol, what on Earth is this about? I never said how I felt about the subject, I even went to say I felt mildly annoyed about it too. It's unethical, but I have no right to judge others from a standpoint of righteousness. Acting out my self esteem issues in game? What are you talking about bro? Hiding? Fragile egos? I'm a little lost here. Annoying my team?

 

Someone is a lackluster person in real life because he/she rolled need on a digital item? I really am at a loss here. Maybe you can articulate this a bit more for me? I'm not getting the entire game/real life thing here with you and this other dude.

 

I'm also not sure why you think players are griefing or acting in malice when they roll need.

 

An interesting thread, indeed.

[xmercxrayx]

It seems that people who play this game whine a lot.

 

I usually skip most loot drops because when i started playing I didnt understand how to make the need/greed window go away so I just clicked the first button to make it go away. A guy yelled at me and called me a ninja and then explained the need/greed system with examples from WOW. I understood it and was happy to progress though the flashpoint however he wanted - but keep this in mind - Just because I need on an item, I dont control who gets it, i just get a chance at it. And if you dont get an item and i do, dont blame me, blame god and pray for better luck nex time. There are plenty of reasons why I might want/need equipment that the character I am currently playing cannot use - and thought it might not feel friendly to the guy sitting right there who could use it right this second, so what - thats the whole roll system.

 

BTW, coming from consoles and shooters, ninja is a good thing.

[Faulhaber]

I find your equating real life moral choice and character, in relation to video game behavior and personae, really strange. It's almost as if you can't differentiate choices in real life as being different from those in video games.

 

They aren't different, on their own proportion, when the choices have impact on other individuals, being them represented virtually or not. And this is another thing that doesn't need to be taught.

 

This is about the abuse that is when someone is taking advantage from an unwritten, but known "rule".

 

I did not see any post here advocating for the removal of the greed button, as that would certainly diminish the advantage.

[ispanolfw]

You simply summed all the problem here. Can't agree more.

 

There is a morality problem indeed.

 

In the context of MMOs, it's immoral to roll need an item the character won't use for progression. And nobody needs to teach that, specially to an experienced player. And the majority of new players will reach the same conclusion by themselves alone

 

All the fallacy, no matter how well elaborated, from those defending "need on anything you want" sounds disgusting to the majority.

 

As disgusting as the rethoric from a child molester, on its own proportion, which is the same mechanism, perversion.

 

The "majority" doesn't need to be identified. But those that doesn't agree really need to do so. It starts by the guts of saying what you stand for when you enter the group.

 

I have no fear to state that I would only be rolling need on items that would clearly improve the performance of my character or the group as a whole.

 

But this is the expected behavior. It's not really an etiquette. It's the morality rule.

 

I very much doubt there would be lots with the guts to state they'd be rolling need on anything they want, prior to starting the FP.

 

Then show me the rule. If there is a rule, it must be written somewhere. Regardless, morals have and always will be opinions.

 

Here's a few things to back that up with before you spew more garbage about opinions being fact. And yes, I most certainly see in the first link the guy says that is all his opinion, that's part of the point.

 

http://www.marcandangel.com/2008/02/23/what-is-morality-a-moral-fact-or-opinion/

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7288/full/464490a.html

http://www.bigissueground.com/philosophy/ash-objective.shtml

http://mbogartministries.hubpages.com/hub/Moral-Standards-or-Consensus

http://godlessons.com/2011/06/25/matt-slicks-not-so-slick-questions-on-morality/

http://www.morellaty.com/tag/morals/

http://fledphil.blogspot.com/2011/12/mo-morals-mo-problems.html

http://www.debate.org/debates/Resolve-Arguments-involving-morals-standards-are-weak-and-or-useless-take-2/1/

 

Annnnd ok, that's plenty. You don't have to read these, I did. If you still refuse to accept that morals are opinions, then nothing more can be done with you.

[_Ender__Wiggin_]

They aren't different, on their own proportion, when the choices have impact on other individuals, being them represented virtually or not. And this is another thing that doesn't need to be taught.

 

This is about the abuse that is when someone is taking advantage from an unwritten, but known "rule".

 

I did not see any post here advocating for the removal of the greed button, as that would certainly diminish the advantage.

 

A valid, and well articulated post sir. I think the load of this thread rests on the fulcrum that is this point here, "from an unwritten, but known "rule"".

 

That is very subjective. The point of my argument, is that what one understands or interprets as a rule, another person may not. Regardless of how I feel about it, because that's not relevant, there will always be contention with that point.

 

What I'm not understanding is the real life to video game comparisons. I find they're really off, especially the personal insults in relation to one's video game behavior.

 

Additionally, I find that criticizing ones actions from a standpoint of self righteousness is in poor taste. When one is, then, using one's video game actions to criticize another, it's even more bemusing. The outrageous thing, to me, is when one then uses a video game as a metric to associate one's behavior in said game, to directly correlate to one's out of game behavior. Again, all done from a subjective judgment.

 

I'm not trying to get personal or insulting here. Just trying to understand why people simply can't understand these basic actions as rational human behavior. It is not at all surprising that one would "ninja" an item to me. It may be distasteful, to some, but it certainly doesn't brand that person as one of poor character, especially in real life. To assert one's actions from a video game, as patent fact, to be indicative of one's character out of game is...well, misplaced to say the least.

[Derbefrier]

I find it hilarious that people who want to restrict people from rolling in order to stack the deck in their favor have the nerve to cry about greed.

 

 

 

lol this made me laugh. its simple really dont wanna share the loot? find some friends or guild mates to run with you, in a pug i am there for me to make my character better. I may even go into that instance with the thought of getting gear for my companion(expect this to happen more and more as people reach level cap and have nothing else to farm). your priorities are no more important than mine i have nothing to gain by passing on gear i could benefit from. but i will say this i will be more willing to pass on an item if you ask politely or make it known before the group starts. i am not there to piss people off but i am not their to coddle you either.

 

 

just grow the hell up and deal with it you dont always get what you want. there will always be competition for gear and sometimes your not gonna win. if your too immature to handle that stick to single player RPGs

[crica]

@OP:

 

Your priorities are no more important than anyone else's in a video game.

 

This! Roll Need if you think you need it, and so will everyone else - they all played the game for it just like you did, so they all will roll Need if they feel they need it just like you will. Decide what you need and let others decide what they need and you won't have any more loot problems.

 

(fixed it up a bit, but it still is the same concept)

[Setanian]

I am utterly shocked at some of the replies I am seeing in this thread. People will say *anything* to prove their point. Morality goes right out the window, as does fear for any actions made in game that could upset other players.

 

You have to ask yourself, would I need on that item, that is not my class, that *is* that other guy's class, if he was a big giant mean looking guy who could Chuck Norris my ninja looting butt?

 

No matter what you say, I know that answer would be no. Since this is the webs, you can do whatever you like, and not have to worry about what that guy that you just ninja looted from is going to do to you. Unless of course you run into some crazy mental nut job, who knows how to track your IP address thus linking a home address to that IP address. Now *that* would be SCARY!!!

 

So...having said that, I find it ludicrous that anyone would even have the gall to argue with the OP. You know damn well what the unwritten looting rules are. You just don't give a damn. People like you need to have a purple name tag so that I know to avoid you in game. If you had such a tag, I promise, you would NEVER get in any groups. You know it too.

 

Say what you like, keep pointing out game mechanics and saying "If it allows us to do it, then it's ok" crap all you like, but you know damn well you are dead wrong. A gun's game mechanics allows me to pull the trigger anytime I like...but it would be pretty damn wrong if I used it to shoot random people, right? Extreme, I know...same concept.

 

Get real, stop defending your already weak points and stop discrediting yourselves. The more you people defend ninja looting and rolling on gear not your class, the more you discredit yourself.

 

More subjective opinion based on zero fact.

[Setanian]

lol this made me laugh. its simple really dont wanna share the loot? find some friends or guild mates to run with you, in a pug i am there for me to make my character better. I may even go into that instance with the thought of getting gear for my companion(expect this to happen more and more as people reach level cap and have nothing else to farm). your priorities are no more important than mine i have nothing to gain by passing on gear i could benefit from. but i will say this i will be more willing to pass on an item if you ask politely or make it known before the group starts. i am not there to piss people off but i am not their to coddle you either.

 

 

just grow the hell up and deal with it you dont always get what you want. there will always be competition for gear and sometimes your not gonna win. if your too immature to handle that stick to single player RPGs

 

What are you talking about share the loot!! Didn't you get to roll? Yes, if you lost you lost. End of Story.

[face_hindu]

It's always the same 2 or 3 people contending that their opinion is valid, vs. the community. It's like any other stupid, ignorant, hurtful notion that is held by a small group of whackjobs.

 

No point arguing, nobody is going to change their mind.

 

* * *

 

To the 3 people arguing against decency and respect for your fellow Gamer, I have a solution for you. Before you start a heroic or FP, say to your group, "Hey, I'm going to need on comp gear and gear I think is pretty."

 

That's the least you can do. If you won't even do that, then you do not even have one iota of respect for anyone in your group.

 

Funny, STILL the SAME 3 people, against a new group from the community. So funny.

 

/sad

[DarthSakh]

Interesting tread. Here my thoughts.

 

Just put a token (or more) on every boss, and make a vendor gear (or more vendors) for tokens, so everyone can take what they like, and everyone is compensated for the "group" effort done in instance.

 

The era of random gear is quite over, and all problems that this system bring if not properly applied.

 

 

The problem discussed in this tread was already fixed in other MMOs, but it seem to me that who lead this game just copied something form other games bringing the same problems , without corrections.

Edited January 30, 2012 by DarthSakh

[Varghjerta]

Quite sad seeing that the most basic things have gotten removed by the but i want it now crowd.

 

Well if people can't play well with others then can you please then just stop playing with others.

 

i swear that some of the remarks in here gives the picture of a kid in a sandbox crying that it is all toys belongs to him while throwing/hitting the other kids when they aswell want to play without him being corrected and xx years later his parents buys him a MMO.

 

Sad that people have degenerate to this level and then trying to defend it.

 

Personally i am happy that there are no x-server things around so i can atleast put people on ignore.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Varghjerta

[ispanolfw]

I still find it hilarious that people think the argument is that we will roll on everything because we can. When it's actually we will roll on what we feel we need because we are given equal chance to. AND that the other side wants to force us to not do so.

 

I don't like bringing this up, but I will. We all pay $15 a month for the privilege of playing this game. So one person's view on how to play is no more right or wrong than another. And the loot system is almost as impartial as you can get, not favoring one person over another. If you feel loot SHOULD be favored one person over another, then state that at the beginning. People who disagree can leave, be booted, or you can leave or be booted depending on the views of the others in the group.

 

So really, you have your morals, your opinions and your views. That's fine. But when those 3 things are not aligned with the system as is, say so. Most people WILL agree with you, but not everyone will. So if you don't say it beforehand, and then "punish" someone who rolls need for say looks, or for a companion, you have no one to blame but yourself and the near impartialness of the system.

 

And anyone who still tries to throw morals or opinions as fact at the argument, please go read the links I posted a page or so back. If you still cannot accept it, nothing more can really be done for you.

[iheartnyc]

No, because as much as ANYONE wants looting to work a certain way, it doesn't. You don't discuss and set rules beforehand, the rules are what is set forth in the game. And being as there are no written loot rules, and the system allows you to roll on anything you helped generate, yes, he's right in this case.

 

Just because the "system allows you to roll" does not mean that there are no consequences to doing so or that it is right to do so.

 

To take an extreme example, in the real world, the "system allows" anybody to pick up a knife and stab the guy next to you. There are no virtually no restrictions on our ability to do this. But we, as a civilized species (to a certain extent) decided it is in our best interests to police ourselves, so we have a government that punishes such behavior. But the fact remains, there is no "natural law" that prevents us from killing each other.

 

Just the same, there is no "natural law" that prevents people from needing on stuff that they are only going to sell right away, but there certainly can be punishment (e.g., booting from group, making you an outcast on all future groups).

 

For people who play the game a lot, you run into the same people over and over again, you really do.

Edited January 30, 2012 by iheartnyc

[Berchtwald]

And anyone who still tries to throw morals or opinions as fact at the argument, please go read the links I posted a page or so back. If you still cannot accept it, nothing more can really be done for you.

 

Posting a bunch of links is not a valid argument. You subscribe to moral relativism, fine. Let's not pretend there aren't other philosophers better than you or I who are not relativist.

[face_hindu]

If we run a FP and a great upgrade drops for you, Sith Marauder, you're in luck with a group running under 'don't roll for items that upgrade another teammate's class more than yours.' You have a 100% chance of improving (assuming no other Marauders in the group).

 

Under 'Press Need for anything, even for items that don't upgrade your primary stats,' your odds drop to 50% when I roll. In this case, the reason I roll - I like the look, I'm short on cash, I want to give it to my companion's girlfriend - doesn't matter, but it's clear that it does not improve my primary abilities.

 

In two runs with drops perfectly suited to each of us, we go from a perfect chance to both upgrade to half as likely, and by half again when others roll, too.

 

That 'greedy' team will end up weaker than the considerate one. Do you really want to cut the chance of improving my heals by 75%?

 

If people can't understand this, than they will understand nothing.

[ispanolfw]

Posting a bunch of links is not a valid argument. You subscribe to moral relativism, fine. Let's not pretend there aren't other philosophers better than you or I who are not relativist.

 

I subscribe to nothing actually. I know what you mean, but I don't classify myself as anything but myself. You might say i'm a moral relativist because my views seem to be aligned with it. But they aren't always, for somethings I could be quite different. In any case, the point still stands, believing one way doesn't give you any right to enforce that way on others.

[Varghjerta]

I subscribe to nothing actually. I know what you mean, but I don't classify myself as anything but myself. You might say i'm a moral relativist because my views seem to be aligned with it. But they aren't always, for somethings I could be quite different. In any case, the point still stands, believing one way doesn't give you any right to enforce that way on others.

 

So let me guess if you play soccer you take up the fotball with youre hands and run with it instead?

 

Because you feel that the other players should not enforce any rules on you?

 

Same as when you leave youre house you call everyone you meet something bad because you don't feel society should not have the right to enforce theire way onto you .?

 

Answer is of course you don't, but when you have neutrality of the web you suddenly feel that you should be entitled that why is that?

Edited January 30, 2012 by Varghjerta

[ispanolfw]

So let me guess if you play soccer you take up the fotball with youre hands and run with it instead?

 

Because you feel that the other players should not enforce any rules on you?

 

Same as when you leave youre house you call everyone you meet something bad because you don't feel society should not have the tight to enforce theire way onto you .?

 

Answer is of course you don't, but when you have neutrality of the web you suddenly feel that you should be entitled that why is that?

 

.... would be a valid response to that. The game of soccer, or futbol if you want to get technical has rules already in place. I would follow those rules if I played the game. and for things that aren't in the rules, they have Referees that are to be an impartial judge.

 

This game has rules in place. Those rules are not as restrictive as some would like for sure, but they are there. So how is this a valid comparison?

 

I don't call people names in or out of game. I will point out flaws I might see, both in real life and in game, but I won't go try and slander someone.

 

And man, stop editing your post so quickly. O_o

Edited January 30, 2012 by ispanolfw

[iheartnyc]

I subscribe to nothing actually. I know what you mean, but I don't classify myself as anything but myself. You might say i'm a moral relativist because my views seem to be aligned with it. But they aren't always, for somethings I could be quite different. In any case, the point still stands, believing one way doesn't give you any right to enforce that way on others.

 

I guess you have never heard of a thing called "law?" Laws are man-made and are enforced by the majority upon others...from basic things like "killing another human being with malice is a crime" to more subtle things like "adultery is a crime" or "pooping in public is a crime."