Phunkmonkee Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I would rather not see these in game. There are reasonable arguments to the contrary, but it would seem (in my opinion) they would be best suited to guilds intently focused on progression through very difficult content. Adjusting playstyle and strategies is my prefered method of play, and I'd like to think many non-elitist content bulldozers would agree. It is entirely possible (and sometimes much more fun) to run Heroic areas and FlashPoints (at least all I've seen so far) with less than ideal conditions. I find it boring to go in with a group of supermen and methodicly demolish mobs through an optimized path. Shocking as it may sound, many people play the game for fun and would rather not stress or be belittled about their gear or lack of. Keep in mind this is a half formed idea, and I would love to hear logical if not constructive comments for or against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedricshots Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 oh come on you dont wana be judged by the pixels you have as compared to the pixels of someone else? Live on the EDGE man, DO IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneiros_IV Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Oh man. I remember gearscore drama. And I agree with you at some point player isn't his gear. As you may know everything said before "but" is hardly relevant. But. When we talk science and / or statistics on massive scale. You will find more decent players amogst decently geared. There are bad geared pro's but laws of large numbers do not favour them. Also scientific approach assumes some universal measure of effectiveness, hard numbers etc. Gear can be judged. (quickly most importantly you don't form 4 man run for life's duration) Player skill is subjective matter, before the run there's no way to make judgement besides his guild's reputation (and THEN there's thousand possible exceptions it may be dumb gf of leader of the good guild, you never know) tl;dr gear is the only hard reliable way for no-hassle judgement on player quality. And while there certainly are bad geared pros and well geared baddies. Numbers back up that more good players are well geared too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 There has been a billion threads for it or against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedricshots Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Oh man. I remember gearscore drama. And I agree with you at some point player isn't his gear. As you may know everything said before "but" is hardly relevant. But. When we talk science and / or statistics on massive scale. You will find more decent players amogst decently geared. There are bad geared pro's but laws of large numbers do not favour them. Also scientific approach assumes some universal measure of effectiveness, hard numbers etc. Gear can be judged. (quickly most importantly you don't form 4 man run for life's duration) Player skill is subjective matter, before the run there's no way to make judgement besides his guild's reputation (and THEN there's thousand possible exceptions it may be dumb gf of leader of the good guild, you never know) tl;dr gear is the only hard reliable way for no-hassle judgement on player quality. And while there certainly are bad geared pros and well geared baddies. Numbers back up that more good players are well geared too. Actually that doesnt work due to the fact that getting gear isnt based on any type of skill its based on RNG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zDracor Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 As it stands the only thing people can judge off are previous experience, or checking your gear. This is worse than having a DPS meter. Gearscore is horrible, anything that gets away from that is an improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nissin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 It is very simple to figure out how good someone's gear is anyways by inspecting them it shows their stats and you can see if their main attribute is low/below 100% hit/low crit ETC.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urko Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Some sort of damage meter is needed, so your party can see whos just doing nothing in an heroic/flashpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabjat Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 There has been a billion threads for it or against it. hate to say it, but it's true. you should use the search function before posting new threads. on topic, combat log is on the way. It will happen. The game will survive xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasputaan Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If you don't want them...don't use them. However forcing everyone to abide by your gameplay style is tyrannical. There is nothing wrong with addons. They are OPTIONAL. meaning you don't have to use them. I you don't want to be in raids or guilds that rely on them...choose not to. The constant tyrades by a few people on these forums to not allow add-ons is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneiros_IV Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Actually that doesnt work due to the fact that getting gear isnt based on any type of skill its based on RNG And that doesn't change the fact that there's more good geared good players than bad geared good players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) I would rather not see these in game. There are reasonable arguments to the contrary, but it would seem (in my opinion) they would be best suited to guilds intently focused on progression through very difficult content. Adjusting playstyle and strategies is my prefered method of play, and I'd like to think many non-elitist content bulldozers would agree. It is entirely possible (and sometimes much more fun) to run Heroic areas and FlashPoints (at least all I've seen so far) with less than ideal conditions. I find it boring to go in with a group of supermen and methodicly demolish mobs through an optimized path. Shocking as it may sound, many people play the game for fun and would rather not stress or be belittled about their gear or lack of. Keep in mind this is a half formed idea, and I would love to hear logical if not constructive comments for or against. Shocking as it may sound many play this game to be good at it and down new nightmare content as its released for the challenge..... why should players that want to play at the max be held back by players like you that just want to have fun? My idea of fun is maxing my DPS, downing new hardmode content and making sure my gear is the best possible gear I can have. Why should I be denied those tools just because you dont want to be judged by other players..... play with friends if thats the case. Because guess what when I pug people I still inspect their gear and if its crap I will boot them depending on what we are going to run so gear score really doesn't save you as you can still get gear checked and a decent ops leader will know what to expect. Also gearscore/and a dps meter do not create a face roll optimized path on new content. It creates a means to make sure everyone is at least geared for the current content and have a chance to do it..... meaning your group is doing enough dps not to hit the enrage timer every single time.... or is hitting your head against a brick wall fun? I mean personally if we kept hitting enrage I would love to know who isn't pulling their weight and making the run suck and a waste of time for the rest of the group. Theres two sides to this story. If you cant handle meters and gearscores dont group with people that use them its that simple. But how dare you sit there and say oh we shouldn't have them because I dont want them because i like to have fun being casual. If you dont like them dont use them its as simple as that then all your casual buddies can not use them too and you guys can enjoy hours of wipes on new content because you cant figure out who isn't doing enough dps to beat enrage timers and things like that. Kudos to you oh single minded one. That being said your going to have to suck it up because combat logs are coming and meters will be coming as well very soon. And as soon as addon's are available I bet you there will be a gearscore type utility out there. Guess your going to have to just not group with people that use that stuff and if everyone uses it will guess that means your a minority. Edited January 27, 2012 by Barracudastr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 When we talk science and / or statistics on massive scale. You will find more decent players amogst decently geared. There are bad geared pro's but laws of large numbers do not favour them. tl;dr gear is the only hard reliable way for no-hassle judgement on player quality. And while there certainly are bad geared pros and well geared baddies. Numbers back up that more good players are well geared too. No. This argument is critically flawed and has been proven wrong multiple times. All Gearscore does is discriminate against NEW players. In a game where your gear is at the hand of the RNG and there is all kind of stupid exploitive grinding, the debacle on Ilum , etc, I think you will actually find that the best skilled people are NOT going to have the best gear. The best PVP'rs aren't on Ilum doing valor trading, so they are gaining it slower. The best PVP'rs were the ones trying to run and support teams in WZ instead of just ganking lowbies before the brackets went in. As for PvE "skill", that's really a matter of bothering to research the raids and bothering to know your class and how it works, and bothering to understand "don't stand in the missile stream derping" or "move when you see the big red circle" or "get away from everyone else when the lock-on moves to you". Gear can be acquired by bads. There were dozens of "l33t" guilds in WoW that didn't have enough common sense to lead a pack of starving wolves to fresh meet , much less do content, and yet had the audacity to demand GS from gear that was BETTER than than could be dropped in the raid being run! If you call that pro, I'mma stick to being amateur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daovin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Considering the final mechanic of any operative boss is hard enrage, damage meters are a must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Actually that doesnt work due to the fact that getting gear isnt based on any type of skill its based on RNG. This isn't really true. The Logic was, if you had a certain level of gear you most likely saw and defeated some of the content previously, and thus were more desirable then someone without that level of gear. You couldn't just RNG your way into amazing gear without having seen some of the content first. Some people who had poor RNG, but if you had achievements more often then not people were willing to take you unless you were woefully under-geared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberData Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Don't like em, don't use em. Problem solved. I for one want to *know* how I'm performing. There are meters at the end of warzones. It's nice to know your performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phunkmonkee Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 If you don't want them...don't use them. However forcing everyone to abide by your gameplay style is tyrannical. There is nothing wrong with addons. They are OPTIONAL. meaning you don't have to use them. I you don't want to be in raids or guilds that rely on them...choose not to. The constant tyrades by a few people on these forums to not allow add-ons is just silly. I understand and agree with what you are saying. I'm not tyranicaly (word?) argueing against them. To perhaps clarify, I agree and like the idea of having to aquire better gear in order to progress through difficult content, but not to the extent that absolute optimiziation is required. i.e. not having optained every datacron, or not having every slot in your gear being outfitted with epics being a cause of rude, often hurtfully mean discrimination and belittlement and exclusion to content. as stated before, gear is a good indicator of ability to complete difficult tasks. I just like the IDEA of being able to adjust play and account for or take advantage of different levels of players gear / ability. A lot of this is the nature of the MMO, I understand this. I'm not asking for any change, just stating an opinion and was curious to other's thoughts. when it's all said and done, it boils down to teaming with players with a similar mindset and playstyle. maybe I'd just like that to be more available other than months of trial and error. a LFG system for like minded players per say. I'm NOT asking for any change just an open discussion on the topic. -- at work with the game on my mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Because guess what when I pug people I still inspect their gear and if its crap I will boot them depending on what we are going to run so gear score really doesn't save you as you can still get gear checked and a decent ops leader will know what to expect. Not only are you bad, you're apparently immune to irony. I can run a PUG group through any FP or OP in this game if they bother to listen and don't act like *******, regardless of gear. I'm continually amused by people like you. Never good enough to get into any of the elite guilds back in the old days, so you use Gearscore to make yourselves feel better. I got a hot tip for you, though : This game is 90% keyboard turning, mouse clicking, 2 hour a day casuals. What, you think Bioware was too stupid to not include these tools at launch when they take all of 20 minutes to code up? No, it was deliberate. To see which way the community trended. And basically, they've made the point that they'll put in personal combat logs. You have raid bosses that reset, that you can't loot , instances that lock half the group out, chests that bug out, bosses that will slay you out of the instance entirely, broken end game PVP and a system that rewards dpering about in AFK and you think Bioware and the majority of the community are going be "hard" and "elite"? You are gonna be sooooo disappoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 As for PvE "skill", that's really a matter of bothering to research the raids and bothering to know your class and how it works, and bothering to understand "don't stand in the missile stream derping" or "move when you see the big red circle" or "get away from everyone else when the lock-on moves to you". Okay so say in a 16 man ops nightmare mode you keep wiping on a boss due to it enraging due to not enough dps. You cannot possibly know out of 16 people where the dps weakness is with out some sort of meterics. You have no idea what an optimal rotation is, you have no idea what is max dps and whats not max dps. Your talking about raid awareness that has nothing to do with a dps meter dude. And some people just suck, thats a fact. They have good gear they think they are doing BA dmg but then they realize how bad they are when someone is like dude we are all doing 20k dps why are you doing 2k.... ^^ Thats a true story btw. My friend in wow had a hunter. She thought she was doing amazing damage in runs. I finally asked her how do you like your hunter good damage? Ya I love it so much damage..... I then told her she was doing about 15x less damage then the rest of the group.... her response oh what ?! I thought I was doing good.... This right here is a classic case of thinking they are doing good and playing the class well... when really they aren't. I told her to download a damage meter addon.... 5 hours later she was pulling 16k dps...up from 2k dps and now shes actually contributing to the group and fullfilling her role as dps. You cannot argue its usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Gunner-- Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Gearscore? no .. Damage meters YES. i used to spend hours at the target dummy in wow perfecting my rotation. no point in doing that with no damage meter. Edited January 27, 2012 by --Gunner-- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barracudastr Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Not only are you bad, you're apparently immune to irony. I can run a PUG group through any FP or OP in this game if they bother to listen and don't act like *******, regardless of gear. I'm continually amused by people like you. Never good enough to get into any of the elite guilds back in the old days, so you use Gearscore to make yourselves feel better. I got a hot tip for you, though : This game is 90% keyboard turning, mouse clicking, 2 hour a day casuals. What, you think Bioware was too stupid to not include these tools at launch when they take all of 20 minutes to code up? No, it was deliberate. To see which way the community trended. And basically, they've made the point that they'll put in personal combat logs. You have raid bosses that reset, that you can't loot , instances that lock half the group out, chests that bug out, bosses that will slay you out of the instance entirely, broken end game PVP and a system that rewards dpering about in AFK and you think Bioware and the majority of the community are going be "hard" and "elite"? You are gonna be sooooo disappoint. I rarely kick anyone but if they are in all greens trying to do a hardmode/nightmare ops im not going to waste 15 other of my guys time by inviting someone that has no place being there. So call me bad all you want but my ops succeed because I make those types of calls. Invite me..... inspects player.... um your in level 45-50 greens... ya im a new 50 trying to get geared. Ya im not inviting you, you need to run the lower end content first and get some gear no offense but you would hold the group back. Gonna tell me im bad for stuff like that? lol kk And whats with the personal attacks? Are you that immature? Edited January 27, 2012 by Barracudastr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phunkmonkee Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 LogicalPremise .... Thank You it seems you get the gist of my idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maginor Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Good players want damage meters Bad players don't. /thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 If you don't want them...don't use them. However forcing everyone to abide by your gameplay style is tyrannical. There is nothing wrong with addons. They are OPTIONAL. meaning you don't have to use them. I you don't want to be in raids or guilds that rely on them...choose not to. The constant tyrades by a few people on these forums to not allow add-ons is just silly. We both know that the player has no say if he is being judged by Damage meters so he just not use them. Every argument for them is Straw Man...it is why Bioware is not acting on implementing even the combat log any time soon. If you want GS and meters you have your elitist based game for that...it's called WoW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Elitist players want damage meters Normal players don't. /thread. Fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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