Sorcerers are becoming the next Bright Wizards

[Darth_Vampirius]

(For those unaware of Bright Wizards, they are a class in Warhammer Online. At launch, the class had far too powerful of attacks earned early on which resulted in the warzones being 50%+ Bright Wizards, with them topping the damage charts)

 

Now that everyone knows Operative changes are on the way, I'm seeing a lot more Inquisitors around - especially Sorcerers. It's like the Operatives are all rerolling the alternative stealth class, or the alternative facemelting class.

 

Warzones are beginning to look like Warhammer Online's Bright Wizard problem. In the Huttball matches I've played today, the worst so far have been one with 11 Inquisitors, and one with 12.

 

10 out of the 11 Inquisitors were Sorcerers in the first one, and 8 out of 12 were Sorcerers in the second.

 

Should we view this as merely growing pains, as a portion of the playerbase looks for another class to play? Or do you think this is going to be a longterm problem, where the game becomes Sorcerer Wars of the Old Republic (to quote a guildie)?

 

Learn to play.

/thread

[Magrador]

i'm coming from a sentinel point of view:

 

in 1v1 sorc give a nice fight, mostly im winning. they are not overpowered in a 1v1 situation by any means.

 

in bgs with often several of them they are though. it's the combination of them all together. they synergy between them (in fact with all range dps/heals) is really nice.

 

yes, they have not a really good burst dmg....but let face it: in huttenball and also voidstar CC/runspeed/pushback are more important than flatt dmg.

 

why kill enemies when you just can push them of upper plattforms, root/stun them in fires? i have a cc breaker every 2mins...but i get knocked of ledges a lot (and im positioning my self that this wont happen as often as possible...). mostly as soon as i forceleap up to them i got knocked back down instant.

 

doors just opened? ae-pushback- root, runspeed, tapp next door...then you also dont have them to respawn.

 

sorc greatly supporting the whole team, in fact sorc greatly shot down melees (not in range/cc = -100%dmg) etc. making it easier for healers to heal.

 

why sorc get focussed by me? not because they are squishy, but because they are the most importent AC for the whole team.

 

combine this with tossing bubbles around (even as dd specc: bubbles are always welcome if you get attacked!) and a little selfheal: you have a class which is OP.

[OsirisZoran]

i'm coming from a sentinel point of view:

 

in 1v1 sorc give a nice fight, mostly im winning. they are not overpowered in a 1v1 situation by any means.

 

in bgs with often several of them they are though. it's the combination of them all together. they synergy between them (in fact with all range dps/heals) is really nice.

 

yes, they have not a really good burst dmg....but let face it: in huttenball and also voidstar CC/runspeed/pushback are more important than flatt dmg.

 

why kill enemies when you just can push them of upper plattforms, root/stun them in fires? i have a cc breaker every 2mins...but i get knocked of ledges a lot (and im positioning my self that this wont happen as often as possible...). mostly as soon as i forceleap up to them i got knocked back down instant.

 

doors just opened? ae-pushback- root, runspeed, tapp next door...then you also dont have them to respawn.

 

sorc greatly supporting the whole team, in fact sorc greatly shot down melees (not in range/cc = -100%dmg) etc. making it easier for healers to heal.

 

why sorc get focussed by me? not because they are squishy, but because they are the most importent AC for the whole team.

 

combine this with tossing bubbles around (even as dd specc: bubbles are always welcome if you get attacked!) and a little selfheal: you have a class which is OP.

 

sounds like you're mixing people playing their class competently with being OP. I agree, people who play their class to its fullest are OP!

 

A DD spec has a very long CD on bubble the most you can bubble is 3 other people with it and lets be honest, they're not going to spend 3 CDs to put bubbles on people during combat. I swear people act as if this is an easy thing to do while combat is going on.

 

You not focusing Sorcs because they're squishy is a flat out lie lmao! Nice try though.

[Raideen]

Get pvp gear, and this will not be an issue...

 

You can cry underpowered, but I consistantly get 3k+ tic's from Sorc's force lightning (which can be spammed and is affected by alacrity) in WZ's and I have full champion.

 

 

3k TICKS...BS 100% total and utter BS. Full champion and battle master gear it will "tick" for about 950 BEFORE MITIGATION...and all sorc lightening damage is mitigated by armor.

 

 

you might get 3k total in 2.8 seconds, but 3k per tick...no way!

[Raijinvince]

These would be acceptable changes imo, particularly the root talent.

 

The shield talent would greatly impact healing specced sorcerers in both PvP and PvE though. Not sure how viable that would be.

 

I think people think the shield is a problem because it grows more powerful since CC is a problem. Making both changes is unnecessary. Only a tele/balance sage would have enough CC to make it SEEM like he/she has the shield up all the time. However, the only problem is that they can keep you snared/rooted/CC'd long enough that their cooldown would finish. The fix to that would be, as suggested, move the knockback root further up the tree OR into deep healing.

 

The reason the shield nerf would be a bad idea is because full healing sages don't have all of the CC tricks. My whirldwind has a cast time, on a one minute cooldown, can be resisted, heals you when you're in it, and doesn't stun you when it drops. My knockback doesn't have a root and is a measly 8 yards. My bubble doesn't do an AE blind when it breaks. My 4 second stun is the same across all specs. If my bubble's cooldown couldn't start until it popped, my survivability would plummet in both PvP, and my healing potential would drop in PvE as well.

 

Tone down the CC of the tele/balance sages and you'll find you have more time on your target. More time on your target, and you'll realize the shield isn't as strong as you think it is.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Raijinvince

[Sookster]

Yeah yeah yeah use interrupt, problem is with interrupt is that most classes' interrupt requires you to be within 4m to use it, try doing that with a sage/sorc spamming lightning/tk over and over on you while you're perma snared. I can force charge them with my jugg and then I immediately get knocked back with a root and they go back to their merry lightning/tk spam.

[Sookster]

I play a sorcerer and it is VERY easy to die as this class. I have noticed my survivability has gone up with the more Champion gear I am getting, but to be honest...There are a number of classes that need to be looked at first besides a sorcerer.

 

1) The Trooper and Grav round spam...2k 2k 2k...I mean ***? Why give heavy armor to a turret that cam pump out a ton of damage?

 

2) Bounty Hunters...both MERCS and Powertechs...***? Heavy DPS and survivability here.

 

3) Jedi Shadows...stealth, ranged attacks and heavy melee damage.

 

4) Smugglers...Gunslinger and Scoundrel. Stealth for scoundrel awith the scattergun blast to the back of the head and death soon afterwards in a few seconds (more like 6 or so)

 

5) Juggernaughts and Guardians. Who the hell thought about balance by letting them hit for upwards of 4600 points? unreal.

 

Sith Sorcerers are dangerous when left alone because they spam low damage force powers. I stress... LOW damage. I finally got a medal for 2.5k from a Crit death field. The average damage from force lightning is 300. If I buff up I may be able to get it to 900 per tick. Hell, I have even had my force lightning do less than 100 points to someone. I can't remember the class. One nice ability, but again it is low damage, is lightning storm. It is great when a ton of people are close together, but hitting for 200 a tick is not impressive. I have seen the odd 400 hit though, but still. 400 points of damage when you have between 16k to 20k health is not all that much.

 

Play a sorcerer and you will see what I mean. We wear light armor and die FAST! We are easily interupted. Most of the time my heal takes too long to cast and I never get it off before I die.

 

Simple rules to balance:

 

Light armor - most dps very little damage reduction

Medium armor - middle DPS and middle dmage reduction

Heavy armor - Light dps with higher damage reduction

 

A duel between a light armor and heavy armor toon should be close to a draw with all abilities being used by your average player with 50% of the duels being won by both sides. Damage and damage mitigation should be tweaked to make this happen. Failing to do this results in OP'd classes...like we have now

 

Merc and commando are actually fairly squishy regardless of heavy armor, seems like armor type doesn't matter at all in pvp anyways. Also talking about a Jugg dishing ot 4600 damage? That's it? I've been hit by a Sage for 7K (project), I thought THAT was absurd.

[Darth_Vampirius]

Yeah yeah yeah use interrupt, problem is with interrupt is that most classes' interrupt requires you to be within 4m to use it, try doing that with a sage/sorc spamming lightning/tk over and over on you while you're perma snared. I can force charge them with my jugg and then I immediately get knocked back with a root and they go back to their merry lightning/tk spam.

 

I agree that melee needs a buff, but nerfing sorcs won't solve that, and you will still get wrecked in the teeth by mercs. What then?

[Gaidax]

I'll tell you how this works...

 

Melee runs around in some tanky hybrid spec:

 

Sees a Merc: *tickle tickle tickle outlive outlive tickle* Merc dead, yippie!

Sees a Melee DD: *tickle tickle outlive outlive tickle* Melee DD dead, yippie!

Sees a Sniper: *tickle tickle get kited outlive outlive tickle* Sniper dead or runs away!

 

Sees a Sorc: *tickle tickle holy **** my uber 2k crits can't break shield, gets kited, omg HP drops, QQ runwwww *gets zapped in the back* Sorc wins with 13k HP left.

 

 

Sorcs are almost the natural tanky melee predators and tanky melee hybrids are very popular... So it's pretty much adding 1+1 here, popular way to play tanky melee rocks get rolled by their respective paper Sorcs equals tons of whine and QQ on forums about Sorcs and their unbreakabke shields and knockback (which is another indicator that much of the whine is melee generated).

 

 

Just an amusing detail - I read PT forums a few days ago, where a bunch of Carolina Parakeets (tanky Powertech hybrid PvP spec, for the ignorant amongst us) were high-fiving each other and then some guy, clearly filled with excitement, shared that he can get "as much as" 3.5k crits on Rail Shot zomg!

 

I just thought to myself, if that is their "big one", what kind of crappy, abysmal damage they do with other stuff.

 

No wonder they think that Sorcs are indestructible if 3.5k crit is the whole excitement for these people.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Gaidax

[xGETGOTx]

More BW fail...

[Torcer]

IMO, Sorc damage is not the MAIN problem, it’s their versatility and how well that versatility synergizes in almost every situation. Jack of All Trade classes are nothing new, but whereas jack of All Trade classes are usually mediocre at everything, the Sorcs are actually quite good at everything, so they don’t really trade anything for that versatility.

 

The missing piece:

 

If there is a damage problem, it’s that it’s very difficult to AVOID a Sorc attack and those attacks can’t be shielded. Your Melee and Ranged Dodge Defense Rating impacts whether a Melee or Range attack hits you, but not whether a Force attack hits you and Sorcs mostly use Force attacks. Resistance is theoretically like Melee and Ranged dodge, except that for some reason Resistance isn’t on almost any gear. Without a COMBAT LOG it’s not possible to know how much AVOIDANCE is impacting DPS, but I Sorcs DPS must benefit by this lack of avoidance.

 

Does anyone have a good grasp of how Avoidance is working in practice in TOR?

 

Balancing Force/Tech damage versus Melee/Ranged must be a nightmare since Bioware would need to either a) Add resistances comparable to Melee/Ranged dodge, or b) reduce Force/Tech DPS to account for the lack of Avoidance. It may be that a reason why Sorcs are OP is that BioWare dropped the ball on a) and b), but without a Combat Log, it’s hard to say.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Torcer

[AlexanderGL]

Merc and commando are actually fairly squishy regardless of heavy armor, seems like armor type doesn't matter at all in pvp anyways. Also talking about a Jugg dishing ot 4600 damage? That's it? I've been hit by a Sage for 7K (project), I thought THAT was absurd.

 

 

 

You are typical Lyer!

 

i'm makeing 3k crit from project under adrenalin... what i'm doing wrong? (with 512exp)

what i'm doing wrong?

 

Looks like few ppl was on you and you only noticed project LoL...

 

you'r bad player and don't lie to others.

[Skizzik]

I don't care about getting a Sorc nerf, just buff Assassins. :/

[BoDiE]

Merc and commando are actually fairly squishy regardless of heavy armor, seems like armor type doesn't matter at all in pvp anyways. Also talking about a Jugg dishing ot 4600 damage? That's it? I've been hit by a Sage for 7K (project), I thought THAT was absurd.

 

Lol, you sir have no idea of what you are talking about. Where'd you get your evidence for your 7k crit from? The monkey that just crawled out of your butt? Brush your teeth, you spout enough diarrhoea your breath will smell.

[OldManRelic]

As someone who actually faced both BWs and Sorcs (WAR sorcs) on a regular basis:

 

No. TORs Sorcs are just fine. The ONLY thing that MIGHT be an issue is how much damage the absorb buff can take. Besides that, they die just fine. You are never blown up in the time it takes you to to get in range of one of them.

 

The real issue is the sheer number of ranged classes. 5 ranged toons focusing on one melee toon rushing in to do his job is, yes, going to seem pretty OP to the guy getting close. Don;t place the blame on Sorcs -- place it on the lack of a downside for playing ranged in this game.

[Lerdoc]

Might it be that you just need to try and learn how to PvP?

 

As a sorc is nothing more the a Jedi , do a tun less dps then your soldier or merc . No burst at all . We have good cc , and a dam nice shield . In light armor that ships is what keeps us from just falling over dead.

13k life ya when mist dps classes can hit for 6k we go fast.

Yep op as all hells we are , and iv got a nice bridge to sell you.

 

You might get proper spec and stop wearing greens and blues and gear for PVP items and try to say that again. 13k HP please, half decent sorcs have over 15. Be half decent gear wise at least before commenting.

[Rotm]

I would assume hutball and voidstar add to the problem. Hutball expecially is like the reverse idea of a map thats a giant funnel for melee. It belongs in some fps game like quake 3 arena not an mmo.

[vindianajones]

Not a sorceror. I love interrupting them and killing them. Most of them are easy.

 

As soon as you learn WHAT you need to do to interrupt them, you'll love killing them too.

 

I personally love when I used my interrupt and it doesn't stop the casting bar because of bugs, because this seems to happen quite a bit.

[Cebby]

How are Sorcs, bright wizards, with out burst?

[ltankhsd]

Not a sorceror. I love interrupting them and killing them. Most of them are easy.

 

As soon as you learn WHAT you need to do to interrupt them, you'll love killing them too.

 

Agree.

 

As a Shield Tech (Tank spec) Powertech it can be hard to take down some of the healer ones because they can usually get a heal off at least once between my stuns and interrupts but I knock them way low and take their focus off of whoever else they were healing before and usually it's enough to get someone to come push them over with me.

 

If they are DPS however I eat them up since they have puny heals.

[OdinsBloods]

The biggest thing I see is that the main channeling spell that they get has a slow.

[sithkllr]

These people that roll Class X because it is so OP are so shortsighted. They will be nerfed. Whatchu gonna do then? Roll whatever class is OP after that? Thats no way to enjoy a game.

 

Rolling FOTM just proves you have no skill and need to play an OP class to compensate. I rolled Trooper day 1 and will stick with it because I enjoy the class as a whole and for no other reason.

Edited January 27, 2012 by sithkllr

[Armaso]

The biggest thing I see is that the main channeling spell that they get has a slow.

 

Would be a non-issue if resolve worked correctly.

[StrongGuy]

Not a sorceror. I love interrupting them and killing them. Most of them are easy.

 

As soon as you learn WHAT you need to do to interrupt them, you'll love killing them too.

 

^ This- people that don't know how to play always scream that classes are opt because they seem to always die, consider for a second that YOU are the problem.... LEARN TO PLAY..... Nerf, Buff ppl drive me crazy!

[Sookster]

You are typical Lyer!

 

i'm makeing 3k crit from project under adrenalin... what i'm doing wrong? (with 512exp)

what i'm doing wrong?

 

Looks like few ppl was on you and you only noticed project LoL...

 

you'r bad player and don't lie to others.

 

It happened, he was alone at one of the side turrets in civil war and he did indeed hit me for 7K damage, this could be before the 1.1 biochem/stim nerf patch though.