Vengance vrs. Rage (PvP) Pros and Cons.

[wickedUOF]

Fresh 50, levelled the whole way as Rage with 5 into immortal for the free scream and extra rage/sunder.

 

I got to valour 24 by 50, so I've done a bit of WZ, i Know not too many.

 

 

I look at vengance and think it must be *********** awsome! i LOVE viscous throw, i have like 22% crit for melee, lots of time pvp its 27% and with extra 60% it must crit all the time. Force crit chance is higher still so I bet every force scream is a crit. Intercede - damage reduction. Unstoppable.

 

Looks sweet to me. So whats wrong with it? I guess lvl 50 is quite a bit different than pre?

[daays]

Fresh 50, levelled the whole way as Rage with 5 into immortal for the free scream and extra rage/sunder.

 

I got to valour 24 by 50, so I've done a bit of WZ, i Know not too many.

 

 

I look at vengance and think it must be *********** awsome! i LOVE viscous throw, i have like 22% crit for melee, lots of time pvp its 27% and with extra 60% it must crit all the time. Force crit chance is higher still so I bet every force scream is a crit. Intercede - damage reduction. Unstoppable.

 

Looks sweet to me. So whats wrong with it? I guess lvl 50 is quite a bit different than pre?

 

Nothing is wrong with it. It's the best PvP spec.

 

Just the kids who play Rage think doing 5k damage every 18 seconds is awesome cause your numbers are so big.

 

"YO DOG CHECK MY NUMBERS IN THIS VOIDSTAR PREMADE!!!"

 

Rage was great before they fixed PvP so you couldn't stack tons of % modifiers and could crit low levels for 9k+.

 

Now it's just a 1 trick pony against bads.

Edited February 1, 2012 by daays

[Helig]

Nothing is wrong with it. It's the best PvP spec.

 

Just the kids who play Rage think doing 5k damage every 18 seconds is awesome cause your numbers are so big.

 

"YO DOG CHECK MY NUMBERS IN THIS VOIDSTAR PREMADE!!!"

 

Rage was great before they fixed PvP so you couldn't stack tons of % modifiers and could crit low levels for 9k+.

 

Now it's just a 1 trick pony against bads.

 

Actually, once per 9 seconds in Shii-Cho. Crush=>Smash=>Choke=>Smash=>Crush=>Smash.

 

However, I find Focus boring on my Guardian. I can sit there and pretend to be a leet player, or I can fully enjoy myself in a Vigilance spec. Stuff dies all the same, and I get a few added utility bonuses.

[ferrymiester]

ok this is actually subject im very interested in. I leveled all the way to 50 in an immortal build. At 50 though i tried rage in pvp just for fun and loved the crit and the complaints about the survivability can be solved just by a simple change in gear i currently wear 4 pieces of tanking champ gear and 1 piece of dmg gear. for rage spec you are supposed to use shi-cho form which i found to be very inefficient. In my build i stay in soresu form because with 4 pieces of tank gear you get a 5% dmg boost while you guard another player. So to explain this better in soresu form i get huge amounts of dmg reduction plus the potential for prot medals. Yes you wont see the 7-9k crits but i dont finish any wz without at least 200k and 9 medals (at least 3 prot medals). If you like rage build this is the way to optimize it. But have yet to try vengence yet and really considering it.

[Helig]

ok this is actually subject im very interested in. I leveled all the way to 50 in an immortal build. At 50 though i tried rage in pvp just for fun and loved the crit and the complaints about the survivability can be solved just by a simple change in gear i currently wear 4 pieces of tanking champ gear and 1 piece of dmg gear. for rage spec you are supposed to use shi-cho form which i found to be very inefficient. In my build i stay in soresu form because with 4 pieces of tank gear you get a 5% dmg boost while you guard another player. So to explain this better in soresu form i get huge amounts of dmg reduction plus the potential for prot medals. Yes you wont see the 7-9k crits but i dont finish any wz without at least 200k and 9 medals (at least 3 prot medals). If you like rage build this is the way to optimize it. But have yet to try vengence yet and really considering it.

 

The point of Rage is being able to put large amounts of pressure in a limited timeframe. Basically, in 27-30 secs, you can drop 3 fully-powered bombs, two (or even all, if you manage to use Charge every time, but this can sometimes be problematic) of which can be further amplified by the 4-piece DPS PvP bonus (+10% after charge is huge for the purpose of dropping bombs).

 

Soresu robs you of this powerful pressure tool (along with imposing an unpleasant penalty to Focus\Rage generation) in exchange for a rather marginal (15-ish% mitigation - if I remember right, I get around 34% damage reduction in Shii-Cho, and 50 in Soresu in Focus spec).

 

In my opinion, if you want to guard your group, go Immortal. You won't do a whole lot of damage, but you'll be a major pain in the hindquarters. You'll get awesome CC options, you'll have enough burst, you'll have shorter C\D on AoE taunt, among other things. Just skip those PvE talents and go straight for PvP goodness, which

[flegg]

We are the only class with 3 teleports and people say rage is bad because they can't survive when they play it. I must be missing something.

[Helig]

We are the only class with 3 teleports and people say rage is bad because they can't survive when they play it. I must be missing something.

 

Not bad. Boring. But I do agree about survival - it's all on our fingertips. Literally.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Helig

[Yssta]

We are the only class with 3 teleports and people say rage is bad because they can't survive when they play it. I must be missing something.

 

The funniest part about being a juggernaut is when you have a pocket healer.

 

In all seriousness, both specs are completely viable. I actually cleared nightmare mode EV as rage the other day simply because of the added AoE and the extra mobility. I was able to put out so much more damage on Soa because of Obliterate, and the ability to burst down Mind Traps was amazing.

 

The problem with Rage and Vengeance specs is that people aren't gearing for them correctly. The reason Vengeance seems week to people is because they aren't getting enough crit before stacking power, and the reason rage seems lackluster is because they aren't stacking enough power and surge.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Yssta

[Dracosz]

The funniest part about being a juggernaut is when you have a pocket healer.

 

In all seriousness, both specs are completely viable. I actually cleared nightmare mode EV as rage the other day simply because of the added AoE and the extra mobility. I was able to put out so much more damage on Soa because of Obliterate, and the ability to burst down Mind Traps was amazing.

 

The problem with Rage and Vengeance specs is that people aren't gearing for them correctly. The reason Vengeance seems week to people is because they aren't getting enough crit before stacking power, and the reason rage seems lackluster is because they aren't stacking enough power and surge.

 

Hand this man a *********** medal.

[Yssta]

Hand this man a *********** medal.

 

Cannot tell if sarcastic or genuine.

[Dracosz]

Cannot tell if sarcastic or genuine.

 

genuine

[Yssta]

genuine

 

Aw, well...

 

D'aww.

[AudioOstrich]

Am I missing something, or are you guys calling rage a one trick pony?

 

In fact, ive got several tricks up my sleeve over Vengance. My FS crits way harder than yours, and im constantly hitting it over 2k (And that Miniscule DoT isnt missed!). My Crush ticks for more than every dot you have combined. Using Obliterate/AoE Slow (for 1 rage)/ Crush im un-kitable. And then we get to the trick i do really well, Smash. Every 9 seconds I throw down a 4-5k crit for smash. And I have real mans Armor Pen. And lower cooldowns on force abillities. And More crit dmg in general

 

In what backwards world is 2k Impale (15second cooldown) 2k FS(Another resonable CD) and Shatter (Which is terrible for pvp, 5 rage for a !!!!12 SECOND!!!! DoT) > 5k smash (9 second CD), 2k FS,Major dot Ticks from Crush (Plus a HUGE slow), and 1.5k Obliterate... It just doesnt make sense.. Rage does more damage in a shorter time, which is the whole point of PvP Dpsing, isnt it?

 

Im not saying Vengance sucks. Perfectly usable for different sitations than rage, and the survivabillity increase is good enough to make it noticable. But ive played as vengance, (250k every match in pre 50's), and ive played in rage (350k dmg pre 50's, and more kills and less deaths due to my unkitable status, and abillity to 1v1 like no other)

 

The number dont lie. Vengance is good, and in premades with set roles, it sustains dps very well. But when geared correctly with surge rating, i just think rage is more viable atm for all around pvp'ing.

[daays]

Am I missing something, or are you guys calling rage a one trick pony?

 

In fact, ive got several tricks up my sleeve over Vengance. My FS crits way harder than yours, and im constantly hitting it over 2k (And that Miniscule DoT isnt missed!). My Crush ticks for more than every dot you have combined. Using Obliterate/AoE Slow (for 1 rage)/ Crush im un-kitable. And then we get to the trick i do really well, Smash. Every 9 seconds I throw down a 4-5k crit for smash. And I have real mans Armor Pen. And lower cooldowns on force abillities. And More crit dmg in general

 

In what backwards world is 2k Impale (15second cooldown) 2k FS(Another resonable CD) and Shatter (Which is terrible for pvp, 5 rage for a !!!!12 SECOND!!!! DoT) > 5k smash (9 second CD), 2k FS,Major dot Ticks from Crush (Plus a HUGE slow), and 1.5k Obliterate... It just doesnt make sense.. Rage does more damage in a shorter time, which is the whole point of PvP Dpsing, isnt it?

 

Im not saying Vengance sucks. Perfectly usable for different sitations than rage, and the survivabillity increase is good enough to make it noticable. But ive played as vengance, (250k every match in pre 50's), and ive played in rage (350k dmg pre 50's, and more kills and less deaths due to my unkitable status, and abillity to 1v1 like no other)

 

The number dont lie. Vengance is good, and in premades with set roles, it sustains dps very well. But when geared correctly with surge rating, i just think rage is more viable atm for all around pvp'ing.

 

You don't do 5k smashes every 9 seconds. You can only do that every 50 seconds.

Other than that 5k smashes are every 18 seconds, after you use Force Crush.

 

Force Crush does kinetic damage, which is affected by armor. At 375 bonus damage and in Shii-Cho FC does 387*5 + 1030 at the end. Total of 2965. At 4527 armor that's 29.54% damage reduction. 20% of that is 900 armor, which is about a 4.5%. So your FC has 25% damage reduction vs heavy armor Juggs.

 

So 2965*.75 = 2,224 damage done over 5 seconds.

For sorcs it's about 21% damage reduction

So 2965*.79 = 2,342 damage done over 5 seconds

 

Shatter does internal damage. Which means people will only have 10% (sorc buff) to this type of damage. At the same stats it does ~1100 average hit in Shien form followed by an extra 1418. Total of 2518.

 

So 2518*.90 = 2,266 damage done over 12 seconds.

 

Same stats, Impale does about a 2k average hit followed by a 463 dot.

2000*.75 = 1500 + (463*.90) = 1917.

 

Then take that FC is an 18 second cooldown. Impale is 9 seconds. Shatter is 12 seconds.

You can get 2 impales in for one Force Crush. Impale does more in the end.

You can get in 2 shatters for one Force Crush. Shatter does more in the end.

 

But let's go into the real issue with Rage and why it's good vs bads and bad vs good players.

 

Smash animation timing and how SWTOR prioritizes animation > damage.

 

I known you've experience this. You get the PvP buff, FC someone, pop adrenal/trinket, charge, smash, only to get knock backed during the animation.

 

*SMASHES KEYBOARD*

 

They call it "Rage" spec for a reason.

 

Once you start fighting skilled players, you will see how awful Rage is. As a Vengeance Jugg I've never lost to a Rager 1v1.

Smash? choke

Smash? Push

 

That is more than enough time to kill you without your big 5k crits coming out. It's the same for other classes. Everyone has stuns. Most classes have knockbacks. Fighting good players as Rage makes you wanna shoot yourself.

 

Then take in that Tanks taunting you during the one thing that Rage does well (high aoe burst) and it's just beyond annoying.

 

Rage is good vs bad players.

 

End of line.

Edited February 2, 2012 by daays

[Herpees]

Ok, so I'm leveling a Jugg ATM (lv 28) and I started as Rage but respecced to Veng at 25 (better early talents) which pvp spec would you use for Veng at 50?

[kronomandar]

Force Crush does kinetic damage, which is affected by armor. At 375 bonus damage and in Shii-Cho FC does 387*5 + 1030 at the end. Total of 2965. At 4527 armor that's 29.54% damage reduction. 20% of that is 900 armor, which is about a 4.5%. So your FC has 25% damage reduction vs heavy armor Juggs.

 

i'm not advocating either veng or rage, but merely pointing out that you dont know the rage tree well enough to even attempt to justify your prefference.

 

rage has a 20% passive armour ignore on top of any sundering assaults.

 

a point you completely neglected to account for with your calculations.

[Kalliadies]

Id also like to add that Impale is weapon damage, and the DoT component is internal.

 

Cant check in game atm but I am pretty sure thats how it is

Edited February 2, 2012 by Kalliadies

[Yssta]

You don't do 5k smashes every 9 seconds. You can only do that every 50 seconds.

Other than that 5k smashes are every 18 seconds, after you use Force Crush.

 

Force Crush does kinetic damage, which is affected by armor. At 375 bonus damage and in Shii-Cho FC does 387*5 + 1030 at the end. Total of 2965. At 4527 armor that's 29.54% damage reduction. 20% of that is 900 armor, which is about a 4.5%. So your FC has 25% damage reduction vs heavy armor Juggs.

 

So 2965*.75 = 2,224 damage done over 5 seconds.

For sorcs it's about 21% damage reduction

So 2965*.79 = 2,342 damage done over 5 seconds

 

Impale does internal damage. Which means people will only have 10% (sorc buff) to this type of damage. At the same stats it does ~1100 average hit in Shien form followed by an extra 1418. Total of 2518.

 

So 2518*.90 = 2,266 damage done over 12 seconds.

 

Same stats, Impale does about a 2k average hit followed by a 463 dot.

2000*.75 = 1500 + (463*.90) = 1917.

 

Then take that FC is an 18 second cooldown. Impale is 9 seconds. Shatter is 12 seconds.

You can get 2 impales in for one Force Crush. Impale does more in the end.

You can get in 2 shatters for one Force Crush. Shatter does more in the end.

 

But let's go into the real issue with Rage and why it's good vs bads and bad vs good players.

 

Smash animation timing and how SWTOR prioritizes animation > damage.

 

I known you've experience this. You get the PvP buff, FC someone, pop adrenal/trinket, charge, smash, only to get knock backed during the animation.

 

*SMASHES KEYBOARD*

 

They call it "Rage" spec for a reason.

 

Once you start fighting skilled players, you will see how awful Rage is. As a Vengeance Jugg I've never lost to a Rager 1v1.

Smash? choke

Smash? Push

 

That is more than enough time to kill you without your big 5k crits coming out. It's the same for other classes. Everyone has stuns. Most classes have knockbacks. Fighting good players as Rage makes you wanna shoot yourself.

 

Then take in that Tanks taunting you during the one thing that Rage does well (high aoe burst) and it's just beyond annoying.

 

Rage is good vs bad players.

 

End of line.

 

Every argument you seem to have against Rage spec is that people can counter it if they know what they're doing. This is a flawed argument, because every spec, playstyle, and class can be countered by someone who knows what they're doing. Vengeance is easily countered, just the same as Rage is.

 

I posted earlier, saying that the damage both specs put out is essentially equal. Allow me to continue: Vengeance has slightly more single target damage than Rage (by about 200 DPS), but Rage is incredibly punishing in AoE situations. The specs have different uses: Vengeance is for putting constant pressure on individual targets (i.e. healers), and Rage is for causing healers to have to triage.

 

Honestly, being countered as Rage is easily worked around. Causing people to blow their knockbacks and/or stuns early invalidates any sort of counter they might have against you. 30% taunt debuff? Big deal. Hit the tank during that time and make the healer heal them, then interrupt the final cast and burst down the healer.

 

There are times when I juke healers into thinking I'm about to Smash by stacking my debuff and then jumping and FS'ing or Obliterating in melee. The animation ends up looking like Smash, they end up blowing their knockback, then I can charge back in, get my 10% boost from my 4pc, and smash for even higher.

 

Man, I wish we could have cross server battlegrounds. You seem pretty confident, and I'd love to test my rage on you. I have never lost a full-health 1v1, ever.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Yssta

[daays]

Every argument you seem to have against Rage spec is that people can counter it if they know what they're doing. This is a flawed argument, because every spec, playstyle, and class can be countered by someone who knows what they're doing. Vengeance is easily countered, just the same as Rage is.

 

I posted earlier, saying that the damage both specs put out is essentially equal. Allow me to continue: Vengeance has slightly more single target damage than Rage (by about 200 DPS), but Rage is incredibly punishing in AoE situations. The specs have different uses: Vengeance is for putting constant pressure on individual targets (i.e. healers), and Rage is for causing healers to have to triage.

 

Honestly, being countered as Rage is easily worked around. Causing people to blow their knockbacks and/or stuns early invalidates any sort of counter they might have against you. 30% taunt debuff? Big deal. Hit the tank during that time and make the healer heal them, then interrupt the final cast and burst down the healer.

 

There are times when I juke healers into thinking I'm about to Smash by stacking my debuff and then jumping and FS'ing or Obliterating in melee. The animation ends up looking like Smash, they end up blowing their knockback, then I can charge back in, get my 10% boost from my 4pc, and smash for even higher.

 

Man, I wish we could have cross server battlegrounds. You seem pretty confident, and I'd love to test my rage on you. I have never lost a full-health 1v1, ever.

 

Really? How do you counter Vengeance?

All classes can interrupt the animation for Smash. It's really long. All they need to do is be aware of 4 charges and watch for the animation. It's very, very simple to do.

 

Vengeance doesn't have to worry about that. The only thing Vengeance has to worry about are tanks because Jugg damage doesn't bypass defense/shields like other classes. In which case you should never be on a tank anyways.

 

Also the taunt thing is more as the game goes on. The one thing you're looking to do as Rage is Smash a group of people for 5k. That's the bread and butter. One tank class can reduce that outgoing damage by 30%. It sucks and becomes apparent once you start playing against good players.

 

There's a difference between countered cause you got outplayed and easily countered because the animation on an ability takes 10,000 years to go off.

If BW ever decides to take damage > animation, I'd even give rage a 2nd thought.

 

But since the changes to stacking % increase modifiers, more people have Expertise, and the animation delay being long, Rage is just lack luster.

 

Good vs Bads

Bad vs Goods.

[Yssta]

Really? How do you counter Vengeance?

All classes can interrupt the animation for Smash. It's really long. All they need to do is be aware of 4 charges and watch for the animation. It's very, very simple to do.

 

Vengeance doesn't have to worry about that. The only thing Vengeance has to worry about are tanks because Jugg damage doesn't bypass defense/shields like other classes. In which case you should never be on a tank anyways.

 

Also the taunt thing is more as the game goes on. The one thing you're looking to do as Rage is Smash a group of people for 5k. That's the bread and butter. One tank class can reduce that outgoing damage by 30%. It sucks and becomes apparent once you start playing against good players.

 

There's a difference between countered cause you got outplayed and easily countered because the animation on an ability takes 10,000 years to go off.

If BW ever decides to take damage > animation, I'd even give rage a 2nd thought.

 

But since the changes to stacking % increase modifiers, more people have Expertise, and the animation delay being long, Rage is just lack luster.

 

Good vs Bads

Bad vs Goods.

 

You talk a big game and act like you're the expert, but your posts are just full of anecdotal evidence and opinion. It's one thing to state that you believe that certain spec is better than another, but it's a different thing entirely to state it like it's fact without proper evidence to support your claim. I understand that you seem to want to be the resident expert, but you need to support your claims with valid evidence and proper sources.

 

You thought that your post would look intelligent and that people would accept it just because you tossed a little math in it. Unfortunately for you, your math isn't even right. Your calculations are not exact and are more estimates than anything else. Then, when people disagreed with your post, you resorted to talking down to them and calling them morons.

 

Sorry, but that's not enough.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Yssta

[dcjoker]

You talk a big game and act like you're the expert, but your posts are just full of anecdotal evidence and opinion. It's one thing to state that you believe that certain spec is better than another, but it's a different thing entirely to state it like it's fact without proper evidence to support your claim. I understand that you seem to want to be the resident expert, but you need to support your claims with valid evidence and proper sources.

 

You thought that your post would look intelligent and that people would accept it just because you tossed a little math in it. Unfortunately for you, your math isn't even right. Your calculations are not exact and are more estimates than anything else. Then, when people disagreed with your post, you resorted to talking down to them and calling them morons.

 

Sorry, but that's not enough.

 

Actually i think he made solid points and you're the one who seems to be condescending here. Taunt affecting damage isnt anecdotal it's fact.

[Yssta]

Actually i think he made solid points and you're the one who seems to be condescending here. Taunt affecting damage isnt anecdotal it's fact.

 

What point are you making, exactly? Where did I ever say anything about taunt being anecdotal? I think you missed the part where I stated that his math was wrong.

[Vampyrrr]

What point are you making, exactly? Where did I ever say anything about taunt being anecdotal? I think you missed the part where I stated that his math was wrong.

 

So post the correct calculations.

[Dracosz]

I make the case for both rage and Vengeance in this thread, play what you like.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYJJdrfZdEY&context=C3403705ADOEgsToPDskJye8p28xCy4EjYLjkZVEub

 

This is Rage's strength, plain and simple, groupwide damage that simply cannot be fully countered, even with taunts/guard, you'll still be doing a TON of damage. Smart players will stay apart but they can only stay so far apart for so long. Nodes will cause people to collapse together and inevitably give you a setup for burst

 

If you scroll to my stream from a few days ago, vengeance's strength lies in being able to single-handedly remove a player from the game whilst having a bit more survivability in the fray.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Dracosz

[dcjoker]

What point are you making, exactly? Where did I ever say anything about taunt being anecdotal? I think you missed the part where I stated that his math was wrong.

 

Where is his math wrong in what you quoted?

 

The only plausible thing would be the 30% he mentioned in your quote.

 

If you're referring to the 10,000 years for smash animation mr. hyperbole would like a word with you.