lolsaber Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I hope BW reads this thread and notes the fact that most of us have no earthly idea what we are talking about and are spewing misinformed sentences as fact. Stick to your metrics BW not the forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinlynn Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 How do you KNOW it was lightning that "racked" you? It is the filler in my rotation as a sorcerer between my better DPS abilities and includes DoTs (one of which does bypass armor). Are you sure it was 1v1? Good players hide their position so you might only see the lightning hitting you and not the Grav round to the back of the skull. Sadly as a Sorcer FL gives away my position often. Your total argument is based on supposition. What part of 1 v 1 flies over your head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andytheape Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Actually it's quite clear you don't get it. Anyone with basic scientific and/or mathematical knowledge can agree that you have no basis for a conclusion here. Based on your comments, you don't know how to create a controlled test environment. Just telling people they don't get it, when they are offering you valid advice, only means that you're closed minded and refuse to accept knowledge where it is available, and you have no logical rebuttal. Shortened version : You're wrong. Whether there is a glitch or not is a valid question, but that requires testing. You made the claims so the burden of proof is upon you, if no one else is noticing the same effect. If you refuse to do the necessary test, then at the very least, link and point out the "many other" posts that you say have such information and we can evaluate their data. If these other posts only have opinions and no actual data, then having many posts with no valid data still doesn't make for any conclusive info. Until you understand how data is logically gathered and evaluated, your claims will be questioned. And we have a winner. Thanks for writing it so perfectly precise. Unfortunately this post will go unnoticed by the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benfynyn Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Actually it's quite clear you don't get it. Anyone with basic scientific and/or mathematical knowledge can agree that you have no basis for a conclusion here. Based on your comments, you don't know how to create a controlled test environment. Just telling people they don't get it, when they are offering you valid advice, only means that you're closed minded and refuse to accept knowledge where it is available, and you have no logical rebuttal. Shortened version : You're wrong. Whether there is a glitch or not is a valid question, but that requires testing. You made the claims so the burden of proof is upon you, if no one else is noticing the same effect. If you refuse to do the necessary test, then at the very least, link and point out the "many other" posts that you say have such information and we can evaluate their data. If these other posts only have opinions and no actual data, then having many posts with no valid data still doesn't make for any conclusive info. Until you understand how data is logically gathered and evaluated, your claims will be questioned. Exactly. The person saying something is broken, or not working as intended, is the one that must back up that claim with their proof/results from the the testing they themselves have done. If nothing else they should be giving us links to the other claims which are said to contain said proof (as you mentioned). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raque Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 What part of 1 v 1 flies over your head? Sure Ignore most of my post, but you mentioned BGs and BGs are 8v8. Most of the time people think they are 1v1 they miss the 2nd range DPS shooting them in the back half hidden at max range. Even most 1v1 awards do not come from true 1v1 fights because one side starts injured or without cooldowns against another side that is full health and ready to burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSOKSouthpaw Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 That article on http://taugrim.com/ was quite good. But I had no idea that shield/absorb were such crap in PVP... I knew defense didn't work against the majority of attacks but not even shield? Don't be so easily mislead. Shield chance (and consequently absorb) are only pushed off the table if your opponent's crit chance is so high that "chance to shield attack + chance for attack to be a crit" is greater than 100%. This only occurs when your opponent uses a cooldown to significantly increase his critical strike chance (like Force Potency, which gives +60% crit chance for your next two critical strikes, but this is technically irrelevant because attacks boosted by this ability can't be shielded) or in the cases where their critical strikes are guaranteed (Particle Acceleration procs). These attacks make up a small minority of the incoming damage that you will see in PvP and this means that Shield Rating and Absorb (much more so absorb than shield) are still quite valuable against most opponents. As a character trying to stack critical strike rating, I currently have ~30% crit, which means you'll need more than a 70% shield chance before we even begin to conflict and I need to blow cooldowns in order to start pushing your shield rating off the table (in which case you also have cooldowns to greatly reduce the damage you're taking in response anyways). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 And we have a winner. Thanks for writing it so perfectly precise. Unfortunately this post will go unnoticed by the OP. Exactly. The person saying something is broken, or not working as intended, is the one that must back up that claim with their proof/results from the the testing they themselves have done. If nothing else they should be giving us links to the other claims which are said to contain said proof (as you mentioned). Logic can be hard for some people =(. At least you guys, and the majority of the posters here, see the fallacy of these claims without evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazorous Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Sure Ignore most of my post, but you mentioned BGs and BGs are 8v8. Most of the time people think they are 1v1 they miss the 2nd range DPS shooting them in the back half hidden at max range. Even most 1v1 awards do not come from true 1v1 fights because one side starts injured or without cooldowns against another side that is full health and ready to burn. That is a very valid point. Did the OP, with 100% certainty, know that he didn't have dots from other effects? Was FL the ONLY ability used, and what type of buffs did the Sorc have, or did the Sorc activate any CDs? There are so many variables in a WZ that you cannot have a controlled test environment. Just saying a 1v1 in a WZ really doesn't mean much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midasear Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Don't be so easily mislead. Shield chance (and consequently absorb) are only pushed off the table if your opponent's crit chance is so high that "chance to shield attack + chance for attack to be a crit" is greater than 100%. Shield does _nothing_ against force attacks such as Lightning. It also does nothing against tech attacks. Crit rating is irrelevant. Go out and actually try it. Remove all your crit gear. Duel a BH or a Jugg friend with stacked Shield Activation. Zap them repeatedly with force lightning. You will _never_ see the tank's Shield proc. Ever. Bioware really does seem to have copied the mechanics of other MMOs pretty slavishly here. Force&Tech attacks are just fancy words for "spells", which in other MMOs can not (typically) be blocked with a "shield". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigoSalsa Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 dunno if someone already posted a video about this. anyway, here is one video i just made that shows if armor does mitigate force lightning (energy attack) http://youtu.be/-PleGHSMFag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remulan Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 That link looks legit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raque Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Yes, it bypasses armor for some reason. It shouldn't though if we go by tooltips. Or the Sorc/Sage in question in your 1v1 situation was smart and popped their Trinket/Adrenal/Reckless all at the same time and got a huge damage burst and melted you. Did you use all your offensive or defensive cool-downs? edit: opps should have read last post, thank you for that video Edited January 31, 2012 by Raque Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigoSalsa Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) That link looks legit.... well basically, its the link you get when you click on "share" on the youtube video page but here i copied the link directly out of the hyperlinkbar for you, maybe it looks more legit for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PleGHSMFag Edited January 31, 2012 by AmigoSalsa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrekorSilverfang Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) http://www.torhead.com/ability/a0biEva/force-lightning#comments FL snares, has front end damage and ticks and you can hit people again as soon as the last tick hits. And with the right spec it gives you force regen. IDK if it ignores armor but it is pretty fricken OP regardless. Straight from your link: SpellDamage: SpellType=>Force, StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.079, Slot=>None, Coefficient=>0.79, StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.079, AmountModifierPercent=>0.01, DamageType=>Energy That's pulled from the game DB and considering that FL itself does not have any variance in it's damage yet I see a constant variance when fighting others in the 10-49 bracket I'd say there is some significant circumstantial evidence to suggest it is mitigated by armor appropriately. Edited January 31, 2012 by DrekorSilverfang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardya Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Who cares, what are the chances of getting hit by lightning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigoSalsa Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Who cares, what are the chances of getting hit by lightning? quite high i guess, but what has this to do with the question of this post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raque Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Straight from your link: That's pulled from the game DB and considering that FL itself does not have any variance in it's damage yet I see a constant variance when fighting others in the 10-49 bracket I'd say there is some significant circumstantial evidence to suggest it is mitigated by armor appropriately. I am not sure I understand your point, armor mitigates energy damage, the thing you highlighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoL-K-Noob Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 This is my favorite argument from lying kids who want Sorc/Sages nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Fought a Sorc 1 v 1 in WZ and had shield up and lightening totally racked me as if I had no armor. Others claim it bypasses armor as well. Confirm? It doesn't bypass armour- take your clothing off and see for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynamitepop Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Don't be so easily mislead. Shield chance (and consequently absorb) are only pushed off the table if your opponent's crit chance is so high that "chance to shield attack + chance for attack to be a crit" is greater than 100%. This only occurs when your opponent uses a cooldown to significantly increase his critical strike chance (like Force Potency, which gives +60% crit chance for your next two critical strikes, but this is technically irrelevant because attacks boosted by this ability can't be shielded) or in the cases where their critical strikes are guaranteed (Particle Acceleration procs). These attacks make up a small minority of the incoming damage that you will see in PvP and this means that Shield Rating and Absorb (much more so absorb than shield) are still quite valuable against most opponents. As a character trying to stack critical strike rating, I currently have ~30% crit, which means you'll need more than a 70% shield chance before we even begin to conflict and I need to blow cooldowns in order to start pushing your shield rating off the table (in which case you also have cooldowns to greatly reduce the damage you're taking in response anyways). Shields are near worthless in pvp, at best they are offer a CHANCE to remove SOME of your incoming damage on only A FEW attacks that you see in pvp, and only those that don't crit. Thats it. And as for cooldowns to reduce damage a PT/vanguard gets to reduce their incoming damage 25% for 8 seconds every 2 min. That's it for damage reduction. They have a HOT that heals 15% over 10 seconds. ....so about 300 health a second on a 20000k healthpool tank for 10 seconds. Are those "greatly reducing" incoming damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I fail to see the problem here. If it's true then it gets fixed, if not then working as intended. This isn't a "nerf sorcs" thread, it's a "please check the damage type / armour penetration on this ability" thread. If the OP is correct (and I'm certainly not saying he is) then the ability gets fixed, if not then nothing gets changed. Where's the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowAI Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I dont have any imperial friends, so couldnt do the test. thanks a lot to the guy who actually posted youtube clip showing that armour does impact base damage, but not crit damage. The people whinging were most likely crit. I will save many people time and effort. Things listed under weapon are the only things impacted by defense/shield http://utils.lmstudio.ru/swtor/class-damage-types.html Edited January 31, 2012 by shadowAI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 It is my understanding that the lightning damage is considered Force damage and that is mitigated by pretty much nothing, other than shield abilities that guard against that type of damage. This is why missile spam from Mercs bypasses armor and does around 2k damage on everyone and crits for almost 5k. There's no damage type called force damage... lol, where do people come up with this stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmigoSalsa Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Shields are near worthless in pvp, at best they are offer a CHANCE to remove SOME of your incoming damage on only A FEW attacks that you see in pvp, and only those that don't crit. Thats it. And as for cooldowns to reduce damage a PT/vanguard gets to reduce their incoming damage 25% for 8 seconds every 2 min. That's it for damage reduction. They have a HOT that heals 15% over 10 seconds. ....so about 300 health a second on a 20000k healthpool tank for 10 seconds. Are those "greatly reducing" incoming damage? yeah, they get that on top of the damage reduce from their armor. basically he gets about 30% reduce from armor itself (kinetic and energy), a quite fair amount i'd say. when a vanguard pops his defensive cooldowns my FL ticks for about 220, which is okay for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omeleet Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) well basically, its the link you get when you click on "share" on the youtube video page but here i copied the link directly out of the hyperlinkbar for you, maybe it looks more legit for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PleGHSMFag You realize if he was wearing expertise gear before the cast the damage is going to be reduced right? I don't know if he has expertise gear on, but I am wondering because I see the purple lightsabre and your red and black one. Additionally I admit that it seems like there is more than the ~20% expertise damage reduction going on, but your test is rather inconclusive as long as you are using expertise gear to gauge the efficacy of armor. Again, no idea if he actually is, just asking. EDIT: To clarify, Force Lightning is considered an ENERGY attack, and thus is MITIGATED by armor, this much is certain. Force attacks cannot be DEFENSED/SHIELDED, an entirely different mechanic. I am merely inquiring about expertise. Edited February 7, 2012 by Omeleet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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