Sith Assassins Are Bad for DPS Raiding

[Cambriel]

Walk to corpse, force cloak, battle res, sprint back behind boss...

 

This is extremely unreliable. It works often enough in flashpoints, but operations are another matter. You won't likely get it to work on Soa, for instance.

[jkcheng]

Walk to corpse, force cloak, battle res, sprint back behind boss...

Healer under attack, taunt, dark charge, deflection, can even shroud if neccesary...

 

So yea....

 

Wasn't aware we can actually be out of combat in the midst of a Ops boss fight unless we're the last person alive. As for switching charge during a fight, that's getting nerfed to hell with 100 Force needed to switch Charges. There's going to be significant time passing b4 you can switch, and you're practically useless for a short time afterward.

[DarthNorik]

This is extremely unreliable. It works often enough in flashpoints, but operations are another matter. You won't likely get it to work on Soa, for instance.

 

SOA is one of the better bosses to use it on, no AOE except for lightning balls, and no adds... the key is to cright click the corpse as soon as you press force cloak. I agree its not as reliable as a real spell, but a lot of problems assosciated with it in the past were do to ability delay which has now been improved.

[Stathor]

It's anecdotal, but on the Infernal Council fight, the annihilation marauder from my standard hard mode group and I (madness) both take on a 49k hp mob. Since it's a solo fight that begins at the same time for both of us, I feel like it's a pretty good dps race comparison. I routinely kill my council member before he does. He's got insane burst and great sustained dps, but on a 1+ minute fight I pull ahead with dots. Typically I'm done first, then him, then a toss up between the other dps. The poor sniper always needs help; it's not a kind fight for him.

 

My gut feeling is that Madness dps outshines Deception. I definitely feel the difference in operations, where mob hp is higher and fights last a little longer. Once you get a feel for the spec and how to properly hang your dots, it all comes together and makes for a really fun and unique class experience. Deception is just a WoW port, sad to say. I leveled with it, but I don't really feel like it's raid viable compared to Madness. The utility it gives you such as faster stealth movement just isn't helpful on an operation, and your range limitations become a major liability.

 

If anyone needs help, it's Deception. Madness is fine. Honestly, Deception could go a long way just by having someone take a close look at Static Charges. It's pretty clear that they're just a stand in for combo points. Build 5, hit stuff hard. It's awfully simple. The problem is that there aren't enough ways to build them.

 

Cambriel What's your build ?

[DarthNorik]

 

If anyone needs help, it's Deception. Madness is fine. Honestly, Deception could go a long way just by having someone take a close look at Static Charges. It's pretty clear that they're just a stand in for combo points. Build 5, hit stuff hard. It's awfully simple. The problem is that there aren't enough ways to build them.

 

Yea I agree, buff that tree and all assassins are fine, its sad that most of the crying you see come from the players that play that tree, which sadly is the majority of assassins. I've never been deception so I was shocked when I came to the forums and saw people complaining about not being able to finish class quests, pvp dps and what not.

[Mazaroth]

As a raid tank in full rakata, i can say the only dps ive had to guard in a raid has been the sin, then again i group with a sin who isnt retarded.

 

Know your class, the sin isnt weak, it just attracts weak players.

 

haha, I love this response.

[excentric]

Yea I agree, buff that tree and all assassins are fine, its sad that most of the crying you see come from the players that play that tree, which sadly is the majority of assassins. I've never been deception so I was shocked when I came to the forums and saw people complaining about not being able to finish class quests, pvp dps and what not.

 

Dunno about others, but I've never had problems with any of this.

It just boils down to deception requiring a bit more skill. Good thing there's madness spec or people would have to roll bounty hunters instead

[Cambriel]

Cambriel What's your build ?

 

5/5/31 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200McZhMZcMfRrMkrfz.1

 

There's some waste in there, but it's unavoidable. Charge Mastery does literally nothing for us until patch, but will be useful then (though oddly identical to Recirculation in Deception, which we can also reach). I also don't really ever use Haunted Dreams, because I almost never cast Whirlwind. For a purely raid maxxed build, I'd probably take Sith Defiance or Corrupted Flesh for survivability, but they both kinda suck.

 

One thing to note, our PvE set bonuses are EXTREMELY useful for dps builds. Even 1 extra force on our filler is a nice bennie, especially now with Raze being changed so that hitting the button isn't a total loss. The 4 piece bonus is huge, given that our Thrash already hits very hard. I'm pushing 50% Thrash crit unbuffed. No idea whether the set bonus lets us break the 50% cap or not.

[Ravand]

To that,No sin is going to be dps in dark charge,which is of course required to shield someone.dps'ing in dark charge not only is going to lower your damage bonus by 5% right off the bat,but you're going to be a liability because you're going to produce massive amounts of threat with dark charge on.Pull a bosses attention at the wrong time because of that and you just wiped you're raid.As you know Dark charge,and deep darkness tree,is a tank charge/tree,not dps.

 

Most bosses are immune to electrocute and spike.So any mobs that the 9% extra dmg would matter on,are immune to the effect anyways.

 

I'll give you wither and discharge with dark charge,but again.....MASSIVE THREAT caused by these abilities isn't worth the risk.In this instance,the OP is talking about being a dps sin in a raid.If you are deep enough in darkness to have wither.....you're not a dps...you're a tank.

 

I won't argue how our dps stacks up against other classes right now,because we don't actually know without combat logs and parses.I will however say that we are definitely lacking group utility in our dps specs.There's basically nothing we bring as far as in combat group utility.Sure,we can sap a mob from stealth,but that's obviously worthless (in most cases) on a boss fight.Other than that,we've basically got nothing but damage to give,and how much of that we give is even suspect.

 

The best guide to your damage is beating the enrage timers on a hard mode instance.

I am 31/0/10 build, but some times i need to run as DPS when a friend tank logs.

I have DPS gear but all im doing is changing to lightning charge, still i m able to beat the enrage timer on all bosses.

If i can do that with a 31/0/10 build with lightning charge, instead or dark.

An Assassin Properly DPS geared and specked should do the same easy mode.

Ps: you can wither with lightning charge without getting aggro, just give the tank some time. Also using force cloak to damp your agro at some point = win

[Nohkron]

SOA is one of the better bosses to use it on, no AOE except for lightning balls, and no adds... the key is to cright click the corpse as soon as you press force cloak. I agree its not as reliable as a real spell, but a lot of problems assosciated with it in the past were do to ability delay which has now been improved.

I've tried it at least 5 times during this fight and I kept getting interrupted with nothing even near me and even though I already started the ressurection.

[MrCute]

I havent gotten to raids yet since I am not yet level 50. But I have been to flashpoints since Black Talon, now repeatedly farming Red Reaper, a level 45 flashpoint and I am only level 44.

 

I feel my dps is fine since I could get aggro sometimes on boss fights against my tank on dps mode. And if our tank dies, the boss goes to me right away telling me that I really have a threat just with my dps.

 

Wish there is a damage mod in the game. It would really tell how good my dps is.

 

I am a Madness Assassin BTW and I am very confident my DPS is not bad when I raid at level 50. My qualification is that I beat all flashpoints of my level while leveling (not carried by a high level player).

[chillblade]

 

The biggest problem this class faces is a case of mistaken identity. Everyone thinks they are burst damage rogues. Ops are the rogues. We are the shamans/pallies. Yes we stealth and a backstab, but we have no alpha stealth strike, and our backstab should only be used on a proc of duplicity. The rest of the time we are shocking, dischargine, and voltaic slashing(deception) or raze/death field(madness). If you really look at those abilities, you will see that they are very similar to a shaman. Shock is self explanitory. Voltaic slash is just like the old stormstrike, chain shock talant unleashes a second shock for half damage(mirrors an old elemntal shaman talant that unleashed a second lightning bolt for half damage) discharge unleashes the proc you have on your weapon, ect. Hell a madness sin is like a crazy mashup of a rogue, shaman, warlock, and shadow priest. We are def not rogues. We have some burst damage, but are not the burst class. Ops are the rogue/burst class.

 

And yet, as "shamans", with light armor we are more squishy then the medium armor "rouge", and the "rouge" can now heal and the "shamans" cannot. After reading your post i feel that "Shaman" is the worst class in this game and definitely need a buff.

[Coolmojo]

Agreed.

 

I don't mean to be mean here, but the amount of horrible Assassins outweigh the good ones, at least the ones I've seen and played with so far.

 

People see the double-bladed lightsaber when choosing their AC and are instantly attracted to it, without bothering to look at play style or end-game expectations. Similar effect with Marauders, Mercenaries and Snipers.

 

I actually disliked the double bladed saber and almost chose sorc over it because I disliked it so much.

[DarthNorik]

I've tried it at least 5 times during this fight and I kept getting interrupted with nothing even near me and even though I already started the ressurection.

 

I just did it last nite on SOA and had no problem, what is interrupting you? I also did on Pillar boss when our tank went down and in KP on second to last boss when tank died again during a frenzy. Walk to corpse, force cloak, unstealth, right click.

[Pangscar]

I can do 5k crits. In fact, I can do 5k crits while 3 dots are active on the enemy, also rolling crits of their own at the same time. Madness assassin. All it takes is a few bad examples to make us all look bad. Comparative to other dps I've encountered I actually have been getting the feeling that we could use a nerf if anything.

 

As Deception I regularly get 4K/5K crits as well. Discharge and Shock are my heavy hitters. Build up the procs/stacks and let it all go, plus use of cooldowns/relic and yeah I got no complaints what so ever about my DPS.

[-DARTHREAPER-]

My only problem with raiding on a sin is how quickly i go through my small pool of force. If it wasn't for using my force so quickly our dps would remain fine and not just in bursts. It really reminds me of the huntard in wow when they used focus or what ever it was. One or two good rotations and you are almost out. Edited February 7, 2012 by -DARTHREAPER-

[Conflagration]

first time I raided eternity vault on my shadow, I was wearing mostly oranges and blues and even a couple greens but when it came time for the 1v1 boss fight (where everyone fights their own boss, making it a semi-viable means of comparing dpsers within the group) I finished my boss 15 or 20% ahead of a dps sage that was in mostly columi gear because for some reason they seemed to think that using disturbance at least 15 times per rotation would pull comparable dps. anyone can play a shadow, but you have to learn to watch your procs to be any good at it. half force cost on shadow strike / maul is a big deal when the full cost is half of your energy, and remembering to hit blackout for increased force regen and being opportunistic with force cloak to get an extra blackout regen in are pretty important factors also. as long as you gear pretty heavily towards crit and surge, assassins hit pretty hard.

[Darth_Hatrix]

My only problem with raiding on a sin is how quickly i go through my small pool of force. If it wasn't for using my force so quickly our dps would remain fine and not just in bursts. It really reminds me of the huntard in wow when they used focus or what ever it was. One or two good rotations and you are almost out.

 

Make sure you use your Force Cloak and Blackout on CD, it will refill your force and u wont have so much trouble with it being low always. Like so many said here, we don't know anything concrete on DPS class vs. class until damage meters come out. I run HM fine with my Deception Assassin, its all playing the class right.

[tXHereticXt]

Know your class, the sin isnt weak, it just attracts weak players.

 

Completely agree.

 

 

Sin probably isn't behind Mar by too much but it shouldn't exactly be neck and neck since the Sin, unlike a Mar, is a hybrid class providing two profession-speccs instead of one.

[Narazumono]

The reason that your revive gets interuped mid fight is because someone that is currently in combat did something to you. i.e. Healed you or buffed you. This puts you in combat and interupts your cast. Make sure your ops group knows to NOT touch you when your reviving someone mid fight.

[TrillionBuks]

i recorded a few videos of karagga palace bosses on 8 man hard mode and alot of people have said my dps is low because they do 5k+ crits where my assassin does 3.3k max crit, i have 4/5 columi stalker armor with the t2 pve weapon.

 

so yea i defo think assassins need a dps boost, but at the present moment of time im leveling a sorc just so i can raid with decent damage as it doesnt feel like my assassin contributes much to raids

 

I easily crit 3800+ regularly and i only have 3 pieces of raid gear and the rest epics of AH or orange gear modded with epics from dailies. I am specced Deception + chain shock.

[DaRkSHieR]

I dont know about assassins not putting out high dps, you said they max out at 3.3k crits?? I get 4k crits constantly with my pvp gear when doing pve.. I have full champion stalker gear atm, with the matrix cube and I can stay with most anyone dpsing, give it a chance. Also, sins take some skill to play properly, as some people have said, player skill is a big factor, but the class is solid and versatile, and burst is ridiculous, up there w/ ops.

[DaRkSHieR]

I dont know about assassins not putting out high dps, you said they max out at 3.3k crits?? I get 4k crits constantly with my pvp gear when doing pve.. I have full champion stalker gear atm, with the matrix cube and I can stay with most anyone dpsing, give it a chance. Also, sins take some skill to play properly, as some people have said, player skill is a big factor, but the class is solid and versatile, and burst is ridiculous, up there w/ ops.

 

Oh and also, if you havent tried deception, do it.. I was very disappointed in the class while using a madness/darkness spec. I switched to 2/31/8 deception build and I love it. Surging charge discharge is no joke especially with 5 static charges built and using recklessness guaranteed 3.5k+ crit X 3 (with battlemaster gear bonus)

[jkcheng]

I dont know about assassins not putting out high dps, you said they max out at 3.3k crits?? I get 4k crits constantly with my pvp gear when doing pve.. I have full champion stalker gear atm, with the matrix cube and I can stay with most anyone dpsing, give it a chance. Also, sins take some skill to play properly, as some people have said, player skill is a big factor, but the class is solid and versatile, and burst is ridiculous, up there w/ ops.

 

I wouldn't say our burst is up there with Ops when they can follow up 5K first hits with 4K after. Problem is people tend to think low crits = low dps. That is not the case at all. We have multiple abilities that do 2K to 3K on a more consistent basis. Our spam move Thrash double crits for over 2k and it happens quite often with the 4pc PvE set bonus. Shock crits for 3K+, Death Field on a 15s can crit for 3K, all this while Creeping Terro and Discharge dots tick away for more damage.

 

Do Ops have a "stance" type damage like our saber charge effects? I think quite a bit of our damage comes from that as well, especially for Lightning Charge that procs at 50%.

[DaRkSHieR]

I wouldn't say our burst is up there with Ops when they can follow up 5K first hits with 4K after. Problem is people tend to think low crits = low dps. That is not the case at all. We have multiple abilities that do 2K to 3K on a more consistent basis. Our spam move Thrash double crits for over 2k and it happens quite often with the 4pc PvE set bonus. Shock crits for 3K+, Death Field on a 15s can crit for 3K, all this while Creeping Terro and Discharge dots tick away for more damage.

 

Do Ops have a "stance" type damage like our saber charge effects? I think quite a bit of our damage comes from that as well, especially for Lightning Charge that procs at 50%.

 

Basically I was saying ops are only ones ahead of sins as far as burst, but we're close, and as far as what you were saying... Exactly sometimes my shock often crits for around 4k total (2.5k + 1.5k) maul is 3k+, discharge 3k+, assassinate 3k+ its great, not to mention all the stuns we have, if you went deception you add another stun "low slash" which is great. I love my deception sin, oh how I do miss death field though, if you crit on a mob you can hit everyone for 3k+ thats alot of damage output.... I'm not sure about the mechanics of operatives, haven't heard anything about stances though...