Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[DirtyDozen]

Just wanted to say that you must have a lot of patience Xcore. I don't think I would have taken the amount of time you have to compile the information and the videos. Let alone put up with people arguing with you to the point of distraction from the issue at hand.

 

Thanks, and thanks to those that helped in giving their feedback, videos, and input.

 

The game is better for it.

[Xcore]

I watched it over and over, and every ability appeared to begin animating pretty much the instant the GCD ended. If there was a delay it was too brief for me to notice (and if it was only 0.1 - 0.2 seconds or so I would not be able to notice it). If you are talking about a delay between when an ability begins animating and when it "kicks in" then I would consider that perfectly normal and acceptable (thanks to 7 years of playing a MMO where every power has such delays as a matter of game design), and if you are referring to a delay between when you click the power and when it starts to activate then it was too short for me to notice on a video. But then I'm horrible at twitch gaming... one reason I like RPGs (and by extent MMORPGs) is that twitch skills are not generally needed and, in my opinion, should no more give you an advantage in MMO PvP than great driving skills in a shooter (not counting if you are piloting a vehicle of course).

 

Its very difficult to define and elaborate, especially difficult to explain to someone who does not have it. It is a "feeling" sadly, I am afraid that the best way to have this "feeling" is to have played WoW at some decently higher levels.

 

I am not saying the game must be like WoW in every way, I don't think anyone wants to play WoW. However, WoW has done something magical with how it "feels" to play... it "feels" very good in combat and in Character Control. More so than absolutely any other MMO ever has.

 

The higher level (faster, more precise, higher APM etc.) you play, the more noticeable this "feeling" is. I realize this isn't something everyone wants to admit to but, the better players have a better sense for this and ability to understand. Even if you do not, it is in fact very much real...

 

 

Here is the real sad part of the story, something so difficult to not only explain and define or tell someone, is obviously super difficult to really replicate or match. That is why no other MMO has really ever been a threat to WoW, no matter how much content, graphics, sound, story or "features" they have... after a few months, everyone returns to WoW (the much dreaded exodus) because it "feels" better, and no-one can really explain what this "feeling" really is...

 

Some say the other MMO felt sluggish, weird, slow, my character moved as if he had a "stick" in his *** etc. etc. Because no-one really articulated it well enough, MMO Developers always continued to believe the problem with player retention was "Features", "Content", "Graphics", "Too hard to play" etc. etc. when in reality it is all "a feeling".

 

 

Blizzard has become what it is simply based on this enigmatic feeling... the next MMO or company that can give you this level of Avatar Responsiveness will be HUGE, because 50%+ of the entire WoW Population likely is looking for that MMO... when it happens, it'll be amazing.

 

If it doesn't happen, I guarantee you that the Titan Project by Blizzard will have the same "feeling"... they know what they've done... and they're not going to direct too much attention to it because once the secret, the key is out... the MMO Genre will explode (hopefully) with proper titles to play that all feel as amazing as WoW.

 

 

 

You may ask, "Why does this feeling matter if only the top 10-20% of players really feel it?"

 

Well, they only really understand it and can even articulate it... but its so intricate and so deep within your neural stimulation that everyone from the super Casual 2h per day player to the 18 hour per day super hardcore player do feel it, some consciously (like many in this thread) some subconsciously (like you would probably, if you were forced to get into WoW for a few months).

 

If you can play WoW for 1 year and then go to any other MMO and say "WoW isn't special, it feels the same as X MMO", then I truly believe you to actually be in the minority.

 

 

0.1 - 0.5 second delays aren't necessarily "seen" while playing... they are "felt".

[Xcore]

Sir, I respectfully suggest that harsh criticism is not good criticism unless it is constructive. Being constructive while being harsh is good constructive criticism, but being harsh without being constructive is the lowest form of useful criticism. I haven't really been reading all this (well, I was back at the first incarnation of this thread, maybe the second too I don't remember), so I can't say as to whether or not you are being constructive. Just that "a mix between the two is needed" is only (I believe) correct when you're being harsh AND constructive -- but being harsh without being constructive is no where near as beneficial.

 

Well, that is why I say a mix between the two, I would hope that I have been constructive... in my harsh ways... lol

[Calimwulf]

I would also like to say, that Avatar Responsiveness is not up for debate since Mario Games. It has to be perfect or as close to perfection as possible... no "If, but, when, how" about it. Its obvious SW:TOR failed in this department and it is being correctly addressed now.

 

Harsh criticism is very much needed at times, whether you like it or not... the entire middle east has changed due to harsh criticism. Constructive criticism is preferred of course. However, a mix between the two is needed for maximum effect... if you do not understand these realities, I am sorry.

 

I like to think that I have been constructive as well as harsh... hopefully at times blatantly offensive...

Sorry boss, I never saw your video and comparing a single player console game like Mario Brothers to a Client Server based MMO is the height of Apples and Oranges. Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the current level of responsiveness, but ignorance is bliss and a fallacy isn't ever anything else.

 

When I look at the middle east, harsh criticism hasn't changed anything. What changed some things is the willingness to shed blood. The problem lies in the fact that blood shed may change things, but rarely for the best in the long run. Violence begets violence.

 

Now say that education and information changes things and I'lll agree. Like a video that specifically portrays a problem that allows a developer to see an issue first hand. This allows them to duplicate and fix it.

 

Being offensive just makes one a jerk, it helps nothing. It never has. Now, don't get me wrong. Lots of folks make the mistake of confusing niceness with weakness, but even then being 'offensive' or 'rude' isn't the right way. Gandhi and King would certainly disagree with you.

[Tavna]

It is definitely better. I still have problems on occassion. It seems to happen more when I fire the same instant ability several times in a row (instant, GCD, instant, GCD, instant). I play a shadow tank, so I have a several instant abilities that refresh as fast as the GCD, so maybe I see this more than most. Even though my instants won't fire when this happens, it always triggers the GCD. There is just no damage or animations at all.

[Klarick]

I would also like to say, that Avatar Responsiveness is not up for debate since Mario Games. It has to be perfect or as close to perfection as possible... no "If, but, when, how" about it. Its obvious SW:TOR failed in this department and it is being correctly addressed now.

 

This statement is simply incorrect. At level 49, Marauder, I have never once seen an ability-delay. Many many people, in fact most people, do not seem to be affected. I PvP alot. Never once have I pressed a button and it not fire.

 

This is my problem with your post. It's the same problem I had when you were saying it was inherent to the game engine and therefore could never be fixed. You assume things you know nothing about then state it as a fact. Your opinion is NOT a fact. I do not doubt that you experienced an issue, but NOT everyone had this issue. Your problem was NOT everyone's problem. The issue that some people had was NOT inherent to the game engine as you once stated many times.

 

SWTOR certaintly did not fail.

[Xcore]

Just wanted to say that you must have a lot of patience Xcore. I don't think I would have taken the amount of time you have to compile the information and the videos. Let alone put up with people arguing with you to the point of distraction from the issue at hand.

 

Thanks, and thanks to those that helped in giving their feedback, videos, and input.

 

The game is better for it.

 

This is the most difficult part... over 7 threads now of someone coming in claiming:

 

1) There is no problem

2) l2p noob or go back to WoW

3) WoW had same issues at launch

4) Set it to 0.0

5) Its intended

6) General Bioware Fanboism, Bioware can do no wrong (Some variation of this...)

 

 

So yes, perhaps posts such as the above don't bring out the best in me anymore but thats a small price to pay to continue driving this issue and effectively help Bioware on an issue that I am (and it appears many others) quite passionate about.

[Xcore]

Sorry boss, I never saw your video and comparing a single player console game like Mario Brothers to a Client Server based MMO is the height of Apples and Oranges. Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the current level of responsiveness, but ignorance is bliss and a fallacy isn't ever anything else.

 

When I look at the middle east, harsh criticism hasn't changed anything. What changed some things is the willingness to shed blood. The problem lies in the fact that blood shed may change things, but rarely for the best in the long run. Violence begets violence.

 

Now say that education and information changes things and I'lll agree. Like a video that specifically portrays a problem that allows a developer to see an issue first hand. This allows them to duplicate and fix it.

 

Being offensive just makes one a jerk, it helps nothing. It never has. Now, don't get me wrong. Lots of folks make the mistake of confusing niceness with weakness, but even then being 'offensive' or 'rude' isn't the right way. Gandhi and King would certainly disagree with you.

 

I'm glad you enjoy the gameplay fixes... I don't know what else to say to you... perhaps if you let us continue with this threadline you will enjoy the further tightening of gameplay responsiveness and avatar control.

[Putok]

Xcore, since you play a smuggler, try chaining your ground aoe ability. Try and make a 2nd one start casting soon as the 1st one ends. Much like a mage would chaincast blizzard in WoW for example. How can you claim that this is even remotely playable right now?

 

No issues here.

 

The ground target reticle disappears when the channel finishes, which is annoying, but it you press your hotkey and click quickly, I have no issues chaining it back to back to back. Not as easy to do as with wow because of the stupid selector grid disappearing, but not indicative of delay.

 

Edited January 25, 2012 by Putok

[Calimwulf]

I'm glad you enjoy the gameplay fixes... I don't know what else to say to you... perhaps if you let us continue with this threadline you will enjoy the further tightening of gameplay responsiveness and avatar control.

I'll make you deal. You stop advocating verbal violence and I'll sit back and enjoy the ride

 

Either way, be well.

[Amp_]

This is the most difficult part... over 7 threads now of someone coming in claiming:

 

1) There is no problem

2) l2p noob or go back to WoW

3) WoW had same issues at launch

4) Set it to 0.0

5) Its intended

6) General Bioware Fanboism, Bioware can do no wrong (Some variation of this...)

 

If ability delay was a figment of our imagination, then there wouldn't be a sticky and BioWare wouldn't be patching it. You just can't reach some people. Fortunately though, BioWare acknowledges the issue and they're really the only ones who need convincing.

[Starglide]

No issues here.

 

The ground target reticle disappears when the channel finishes, which is annoying, but it you press your hotkey and click quickly, I have no issues chaining it back to back to back. Not as easy to do with wow because of the stupid selector grid disappearing, but not indicative of delay.

 

 

Please refer to my most recent video which is post-1.1.0b. It shows the delay is still there and stems way beyond the simple "abilities now actually execute" fix that was implemented.

 

[Xcore]

This statement is simply incorrect. At level 49, Marauder, I have never once seen an ability-delay. Many many people, in fact most people, do not seem to be affected. I PvP alot. Never once have I pressed a button and it not fire.

 

This is my problem with your post. It's the same problem I had when you were saying it was inherent to the game engine and therefore could never be fixed. You assume things you know nothing about then state it as a fact. Your opinion is NOT a fact. I do not doubt that you experienced an issue, but NOT everyone had this issue. Your problem was NOT everyone's problem. The issue that some people had was NOT inherent to the game engine as you once stated many times.

 

SWTOR certaintly did not fail.

 

I thought we went over it, not everyone is able or has the capability of noticing this... its based on the level at which you play as a person.

 

I thought throughout this threadline if anything has been accomplished it is the distinction that higher level play brings this forth more noticeably.

 

 

How can you say Bioware did not fail in this department? it is so obvious, look at the massive fixing that is being done here? Look at the speed of which it is being fixed, within 3 weeks they've rolled out major fixes to this problem, this means that they've hauled *** on this issue internally.

 

Yes, Bioware has failed with SW:TOR to deliver responsive, crips and smooth gameplay that is on par with the market leader and game that has mastered it the best, "WoW". It is now being fixed and addressed.

 

All I can really say to you, you're welcome.... even in your blissful ignorance, if it makes you happy to hate this thread, me (because of how I am or how I express myself or for whatever other reason), or any other criticism towards Bioware that is ok I guess. I hope that you have a good time and even if you don't consciously notice the effect this entire thing has on you, perhaps subconsciously you will and then you'll praise Bioware (naturally) but the point is if the resolution of this issue enhances your gameplay in any way, I feel like we've accomplished something good either way.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Xcore

[Xcore]

I'll make you deal. You stop advocating verbal violence and I'll sit back and enjoy the ride

 

Either way, be well.

 

I don't think I've ever advocated verbal violence...

[Scaire]

Xcore, I have been following this thread since the very first post. I think everyone appreciates what you have done here, you have an uncanny was of articulating things.

 

That being said, I was a multiglad (6 seasons) and raided in a top 25 world guild (Overrated, Korgath - the horde version of the guild Death and Taxes). This delay made the game unplayable for me. I came on today and I must say that many people in this thread are not giving them enough credit for how drastic this improvement is.

 

The actual DELAY is feeling about 90% better for me. I have been able to vanish instantly all but ONE time in about four hours of WZ's.

 

The animation problems, however, have not been addressed, nor has Bioware said they have been addressed, and I think people are lacking the intuition to realize the difference between the DELAY that was fixed today and the obvious and glaring problems with animations that has absolutely nothing to do with today's fix.

 

In fact, the entire game feels more fluid. When I click on an interractable object it works instantly, I do not have to wait half a second for me to interract with an object on the ground.

 

The next step for them is to fix the animations. The most glaring problem (as discussed) is twofold.

 

1. Animations are not matching cast times

2. Abilities that have conditionals (for example, "behind target" for backstab/maul or snipe which requires you to be in cover) needs to have their check from client to server on keypress, not in the middle of the animation. This is the reason why backstab does not work when you hit the ability if your enemy faces you immediately, or why sniping immediately after goign into cover doesnt work. The client and the server do not communicate until you are actually in cover or until right before you extend your arm for the stab.

 

Again, thanks for all the hard work on this.

[Xcore]

Xcore, I have been following this thread since the very first post. I think everyone appreciates what you have done here, you have an uncanny was of articulating things.

 

That being said, I was a multiglad (6 seasons) and raided in a top 25 world guild (Overrated, Korgath - the horde version of the guild Death and Taxes). This delay made the game unplayable for me. I came on today and I must say that many people in this thread are not giving them enough credit for how drastic this improvement is.

 

The actual DELAY is feeling about 90% better for me. I have been able to vanish instantly all but ONE time in about four hours of WZ's.

 

The animation problems, however, have not been addressed, nor has Bioware said they have been addressed, and I think people are lacking the intuition to realize the difference between the DELAY that was fixed today and the obvious and glaring problems with animations that has absolutely nothing to do with today's fix.

 

In fact, the entire game feels more fluid. When I click on an interractable object it works instantly, I do not have to wait half a second for me to interract with an object on the ground.

 

The next step for them is to fix the animations. The most glaring problem (as discussed) is twofold.

 

1. Animations are not matching cast times

2. Abilities that have conditionals (for example, "behind target" for backstab/maul or snipe which requires you to be in cover) needs to have their check from client to server on keypress, not in the middle of the animation. This is the reason why backstab does not work when you hit the ability if your enemy faces you immediately, or why sniping immediately after goign into cover doesnt work. The client and the server do not communicate until you are actually in cover or until right before you extend your arm for the stab.

 

Again, thanks for all the hard work on this.

 

Thank you, this is exactly the kind of opinion we need and I appreciate the kind words. I agree completely when I said the scope of the "improvement" is quite great...

 

And also yes, Animation/Sound and Effect sync to keypress and UI input such as Cast Timer etc are things that still need tweaking but I believe these to be easier...

 

Bioware, needs to really listen to players like yourself... multi-glad/your raiding exp is big...

 

 

Edit: I will add your post here to OP as well later tonight... tyvm again...

Edited January 25, 2012 by Xcore

[Putok]

Please refer to my most recent video which is post-1.1.0b. It shows the delay is still there and stems way beyond the simple "abilities now actually execute" fix that was implemented.

 

 

Of course it's still there. I posted a video where I timed it. I'm simply demonstrating that any delay on the agent/smuggler GTAOE is far from "unplayable", unless someone else is experiencing the issue to a much greater degree than I am. A tenth of a second is not unplayable, the first casting bar doesn't even fade before the next begins.

[Feskitt]

I wonder how many of those who claim to experience the ability delay have been whipped in PvP by those who apparently aren't "good enough" to notice it?

 

 

Yeah, animations and cool-downs don't match. Obviously that should be tweaked and 'fixed.'

Yeah, sometimes (extremely rarely for me) moves can get glitched. Obviously that should be tweaked and 'fixed.'

 

 

Ability delay? Meh, never noticed it, even while leading kills in PvP over everyone and burning down pretty much anyone in front of me. Probably including folks in this thread. But don't worry. There's always an excuse.

 

They won't be happy till all realistic animations are destroyed, every click=instant damage, and all you need is to be hopped up on goofballs to "be good."

 

(don't forget to respond, so as to artificially increase the thread view count and make it seem like everyone has this supposed 'problem')

 

 

 

[Starglide]

Xcore, I have been following this thread since the very first post. I think everyone appreciates what you have done here, you have an uncanny was of articulating things.

 

That being said, I was a multiglad (6 seasons) and raided in a top 25 world guild (Overrated, Korgath - the horde version of the guild Death and Taxes). This delay made the game unplayable for me. I came on today and I must say that many people in this thread are not giving them enough credit for how drastic this improvement is.

 

The actual DELAY is feeling about 90% better for me. I have been able to vanish instantly all but ONE time in about four hours of WZ's.

 

The animation problems, however, have not been addressed, nor has Bioware said they have been addressed, and I think people are lacking the intuition to realize the difference between the DELAY that was fixed today and the obvious and glaring problems with animations that has absolutely nothing to do with today's fix.

 

In fact, the entire game feels more fluid. When I click on an interractable object it works instantly, I do not have to wait half a second for me to interract with an object on the ground.

 

The next step for them is to fix the animations. The most glaring problem (as discussed) is twofold.

 

1. Animations are not matching cast times

2. Abilities that have conditionals (for example, "behind target" for backstab/maul or snipe which requires you to be in cover) needs to have their check from client to server on keypress, not in the middle of the animation. This is the reason why backstab does not work when you hit the ability if your enemy faces you immediately, or why sniping immediately after goign into cover doesnt work. The client and the server do not communicate until you are actually in cover or until right before you extend your arm for the stab.

 

Again, thanks for all the hard work on this.

 

My video shows the delay with the queue of my next ability when no animation takes part. I agree there has been a step in the right direction, but the delay is still there. Not only with animations playing a part; but as long as the game communicates your input with the server first, as opposed to the client first then executing math via server, you will have input delay. Like I have stated before (I think you will see I do not lack insight), WoW creates an illusion of control by allowing the client to react first. Which is why when you lag out, you can still move and execute abilities but your abilities will not mathematically apply unless it communicates with the server. As a result, your PC specs and internet speed will take a part in displaying said numbers and opposition executions, but your input and animations will occur client side. With TOR communicating all server side and prioritizing animations, you have a clunky system.

 

I think what is happening here is people such as yourself are selling short. I refuse to be exited at the fact that my abilities actually go through now because the delay, for me, is till stagnant. There is more reliability, but as long as queuing abilities (the act of the system executing my next ability which should be fast than spamming or manual input) results in anything more than .1 lag--I will ALWAYS feel it.

 

Until then, I will not be content.

[Starglide]

Of course it's still there. I posted a video where I timed it. I'm simply demonstrating that any delay on the agent/smuggler GTAOE is far from "unplayable", unless someone else is experiencing the issue to a much greater degree than I am. A tenth of a second is not unplayable, the first casting bar doesn't even fade before the next begins.

 

I know, but unfortunately Georg posted in another thread of posters exclaiming its gone and boasted that they are not done fixing it. As if we were happy with the result and they are working off pure intuitiveness and initiative to fix the prevailing

 

We just want to let them know that we are not letting this rest and that it is not even close to being completely rectified.

[Xcore]

I wonder how many of those who claim to experience the ability delay have been whipped in PvP by those who apparently aren't "good enough" to notice it?

 

 

Yeah, animations and cool-downs don't match. Obviously that should be tweaked and 'fixed.'

Yeah, sometimes (extremely rarely for me) moves can get glitched. Obviously that should be tweaked and 'fixed.'

 

 

Ability delay? Meh, never noticed it, even while leading kills in PvP over everyone and burning down pretty much anyone in front of me. Probably including folks in this thread. But don't worry. There's always an excuse.

 

They won't be happy till all realistic animations are destroyed, every click=instant damage, and all you need is to be hopped up on goofballs to "be good."

 

(don't forget to respond, so as to artificially increase the thread view count and make it seem like everyone has this supposed 'problem')

 

 

 

 

Actually in the system with lack of response (before this last patch) it levelled the playing field "a lot" between the best players and the average players.

 

The less responsiveness and precision avatar control you have, the less distinction you can have between "Bad, Average, Good and Great". My point is that in a system like "WoW" the SkillCap is much higher than in "Warhammer Online" or "SW:TOR".

 

Sorry to say, but advocating this Ability Delay/Avatar Responsiveness Fix is actually going to do nothing but increase the Skill Cap of the game and thus lead to more competitive play. Which along the lines will lead to the "best" truly standing out further than in an un-responsive system which only frustrates the better players because its so slow.

 

 

I don't think anyone here advocates breaking any pretty animations. However, responsive gameplay should always trump cosmetics and animations. Gameplay should always trump "anything" in a game where "action" is forefront, from SuperMario through Tetris to WoW and SW:TOR...

 

Now, "The Sims" does not need to be super responsive... the priorities there can be somewhere else...

[AnotherJaggens]

Gone to ops tonight.

Well as everyone said above delay is fixed and responsiveness even in very tough perfomance fights (forced 32AA and fps dropped to 15-18) was pretty good.

Matching animations with cast times and/or implementing WoW-esque "animation cutting" system still required. Also still suffer from "chaneling is going, but no damage and GCD is used" bug.

[StrykerOne]

Its very difficult to define and elaborate, especially difficult to explain to someone who does not have it. It is a "feeling" sadly, I am afraid that the best way to have this "feeling" is to have played WoW at some decently higher levels.

 

I am not saying the game must be like WoW in every way, I don't think anyone wants to play WoW. However, WoW has done something magical with how it "feels" to play... it "feels" very good in combat and in Character Control. More so than absolutely any other MMO ever has.

 

The higher level (faster, more precise, higher APM etc.) you play, the more noticeable this "feeling" is. I realize this isn't something everyone wants to admit to but, the better players have a better sense for this and ability to understand. Even if you do not, it is in fact very much real...

 

You know, I think part of the reason that I am not seeing this issue is my choice of characters. My main is a Gunnery spec Commando and my primary alt is a Merc with the imp version of that spec. I have no positional attacks, no off-the-GCD reactive attacks, no interrupts aside from my knockback... I just stand still and spam charged attacks (Grav Round / Tracer Missile) and toss in a Rail Shot or Full Auto from time to time and use AoEs whenever things are clumped and I can risk the aggro. Perhaps "run and gun" style characters feel the delays a lot more... certainly anyone who relies on positionals would in PvP since giving a human target even a quarter second to move would make those harder to pull off, but I've seen very few positional attacks in this game and I don't have an alt yet that uses one.

[Xcore]

You know, I think part of the reason that I am not seeing this issue is my choice of characters. My main is a Gunnery spec Commando and my primary alt is a Merc with the imp version of that spec. I have no positional attacks, no off-the-GCD reactive attacks, no interrupts aside from my knockback... I just stand still and spam charged attacks (Grav Round / Tracer Missile) and toss in a Rail Shot or Full Auto from time to time and use AoEs whenever things are clumped and I can risk the aggro. Perhaps "run and gun" style characters feel the delays a lot more... certainly anyone who relies on positionals would in PvP since giving a human target even a quarter second to move would make those harder to pull off, but I've seen very few positional attacks in this game and I don't have an alt yet that uses one.

 

My Fiancee plays Gunnery Commando right now and she did notice it still (huge improvement she says now) but you're right, she said it was much less noticeable on the Gunnery Commando than her Consular Sage for example...

 

It has also been established that certain classes do showcase it better but all suffer from it...

 

 

Again, the issue today is greatly improved... shes very happy

[Xcore]

You know, one big thing I've noticed is that I am running out of energy easier and my fiancee noted that she is running out of power cells faster too because of the delay missing now, things are happening much faster... more abilities, more resource usage.

 

This down the line, may lead to tweaking of resources (regen or ability requirements).