If SWTOR was a new car

[ryathal]

You have to realize that MMO's are a service, rather than a product.

 

i'd be pretty pissed if a bought car insurance only to find out it only covers accidents on weekdays and is currently planning a claims tracking service but has none at the present time.

[PjPablo]

Still a truthful sample. How do you expect me to feel when I see ALL this ************ yet no reason to *****? I still say 90% of the problems are user error and I stick by that until I experience these "gamebreaking" bugs that make this game so horrible. This is the most fun I've had in PvP since WoW's golden days.

 

You can't possibly think that bugs/flaws like ability delay, the lack of high res textures, fps performance issues, lack of UI customization, poor GTN design, etc are 'user error'? I like this game, but I do realize it is far from perfect. I have faith BW will get it right but I don't let my enjoyment of the game cloud the fact that there are some real issues here.

[ryathal]

You know what? If the customer base for cars were notorious for demanding that the car companies had to design a new car model in a tenth of the time needed to make it road-worthy, your analogy would almost work.

 

If they also demanded that the car companies did this without hiring more people, thereby driving prices up, your analogy would be even closer to working.

 

And if the cars were supposed to work on every terrain on every planet in the known universe at the same time without breaking, then your analogy would be damn near perfect.

 

 

The thing is, people who don't understand the difference between developing for a uniformed platform versus developing for the PC market often bring up examples like this, and then they rage about it. But whenever a company tries to do it right, the same people will rage about the fact that the game never gets released. Blizzard is one of few developers with the backing and money needed to even attempt decade spanning development proccesses, and their products STILL have bugs in them.

 

If you'd be fine with SWTOR hitting the shelves sometime around 2035 and costing 800$ retail, I'm sure you'd be able to get an almost bug free game. Learn to live with it, or go back to the X-box...

 

yet somehow other companies can deliver complete games...

 

also we only demand our cars pollute less, use less gas, have more room, be safer, come with more standard features, look good, never break and cost the same or less as current models, but thats totally possible.

[Humonculus]

You can't possibly think that bugs/flaws like ability delay, the lack of high res textures, fps performance issues, lack of UI customization, poor GTN design, etc are 'user error'? I like this game, but I do realize it is far from perfect. I have faith BW will get it right but I don't let my enjoyment of the game cloud the fact that there are some real issues here.

 

Never had ability delay, high res textures isnt something that makes a game better, never had fps issues, dont need to customize UI, and the GTN is perfectly fine for me. How many times do I have to prove my point? I think people complain JUST to complain. Nothing better to do. I for one got my money out of this game++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++So minor issues like the high res textures is acceptable. I thought we were talking about issues that made gameplay not possible? I spent 60$ on this game and have over 11 days played time in a month. So where exactly did I go wrong? No where. I dont know a single game out that I have over 2 days played time. Oh and guess what? I paid 60$ for those games too. Sounds like Bioware hooked me up pretty nasty.

[discosoc]

i'd be pretty pissed if a bought car insurance only to find out it only covers accidents on weekdays and is currently planning a claims tracking service but has none at the present time.

 

Car insurance is not a service, either. It's a product, like a car, but with an expiration date.

[Menisong]

Never had ability delay, high res textures isnt something that makes a game better, never had fps issues, dont need to customize UI, and the GTN is perfectly fine for me. How many times do I have to prove my point? I think people complain JUST to complain. Nothing better to do. I for one got my money out of this game++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++So minor issues like the high res textures is acceptable. I thought we were talking about issues that made gameplay not possible? I spent 60$ on this game and have over 11 days played time in a month. So where exactly did I go wrong? No where. I dont know a single game out that I have over 2 days played time. Oh and guess what? I paid 60$ for those games too. Sounds like Bioware hooked me up pretty nasty.

 

You clearly haven't done eternity vault. Before last week every single boss was bugged.

 

Oh yeah, including the escape pod...lol.

 

Edit again: For kicks and giggles, you can read the 2 most current dev posts and the dev tracker...seems like there are problems beyond user error;)

Edited January 24, 2012 by Menisong

[Falkelord]

I don't care about WoW, certainly not from 8 years ago. This is 2012, mmo expectations have changed.

 

It is not ok for Bioware to put out a shoddy product, they didn't test it enough. I am not saying they can't fix it....but they better get on it fast or subs are GOING to plummet.

 

I see this argument all over the place:

 

It's 2012, it's not 2004, standards have changed.

 

Yes, standards have changed. PRACTICES, however, have not.

 

The same QA/Developer/Producer structure has been in place since practically the time video games started getting made.

 

Devs make a game. Marketers hype it. Things get changed. QA has oversights. THIS HAS NOT AND NEVER WILL CHANGE because everyone who works these positions, despite how it may seem, are HUMANS. THEY MAKE MISTAKES AND CAUSE ERRORS.

 

Bugs are going to happen. It's not like we've hit 2012 and all of a sudden magically bugs just vanish and every piece of software ever made no longer has issues.

 

That being said, there are issues, but that's also the territory that comes from playing a game from launch. If you don't like it, show the company with your wallet. And there I agree with you.

 

But there never has been and never will be a magical time when a piece of software comes out of the gates perfect because "it's a new year, things have changed since the last time one of these was groundbreaking"

Edited January 24, 2012 by Falkelord

[Grandpappy]

Yet I'm not having a single issue.

 

What...with the forum? If you're not having one issue you must still be stuck in character creation.

[gangbot]

It has become normal for people to think "every other game released had bugs so its ok".

[Jswizzle]

This analogy is pretty bad. I've seen worse here though.

 

At least you didn't compare the game to a one night stand.

 

+1

[Grandpappy]

I see this argument all over the place:

 

It's 2012, it's not 2004, standards have changed.

 

Yes, standards have changed. PRACTICES, however, have not.

 

The same QA/Developer/Producer structure has been in place since practically the time video games started getting made.

 

Devs make a game. Marketers hype it. Things get changed. QA has oversights. THIS HAS NOT AND NEVER WILL CHANGE because everyone who works these positions, despite how it may seem, are HUMANS. THEY MAKE MISTAKES AND CAUSE ERRORS.

 

Bugs are going to happen. It's not like we've hit 2012 and all of a sudden magically bugs just vanish and every piece of software ever made no longer has issues.

 

That being said, there are issues, but that's also the territory that comes from playing a game from launch. If you don't like it, show the company with your wallet. And there I agree with you.

 

But there never has been and never will be a magical time when a piece of software comes out of the gates perfect because "it's a new year, things have changed since the last time one of these was groundbreaking"

 

That's what I did today when I cancelled my sub - and I listed ALL of the reasons why. It was a LONG list

[fungihoujo]

I'd be happy I paid 150 for a car that I spend half my day using and love driving it for the sake of driving it.

 

 

 

Also- cars break, get rust, break down, the brakes stop working, oil changes are needed, you gotta pump in gas, vacuum, wash, fix the radio, fix the hole in the muffler, change the tires each season, pump air, etc..... If I could pay 13 bucks a month or whatever it is for the 6 month for the car company to do all the fixes and maintenance that ever come to my car...

 

 

I'm going with that car company for life.

[JohnnyPanzer]

yet somehow other companies can deliver complete games...

 

also we only demand our cars pollute less, use less gas, have more room, be safer, come with more standard features, look good, never break and cost the same or less as current models, but thats totally possible.

 

What companies? I've never, ever, ever in my life come across a bug-free game. Not once during 25 years of gaming.

 

Or are you talking about the kind of "bugs" that are realy just matters of opinion? Because I don't think that should count. If half the playerbase looks at a feature or lack there of, and say "This makes the game unplayable!" and the other half looks at it and say "Realy? I didn't even notice", then by defenition it is not game breaking.

 

I've seen a lot of buggier games then this. SWG, WoW, CoH and Conan all contained far more bugs at launch for me. For someone else they might have contained less.

 

Empire Total War recieved a lot of heat for some pretty major bugs, yet I have not encountered even one of those major bugs after more than 500 hours of playtime.

 

StarCraft 2 has been enjoyed by many of my friends, who all reported little to no bugs. yet I have yet to play it, because after many, many attempts and a lot of hours mailing tech support, I have still not been able to get the game to run for even a second on my computer.

 

But I'm rambling. The bottom line is that the car analogy is flawed, stupid and could only work in an alternate reality where a new car would run you 1000$ and only take a month to develop.

[Menisong]

I see this argument all over the place:

 

It's 2012, it's not 2004, standards have changed.

 

Yes, standards have changed. PRACTICES, however, have not.

 

The same QA/Developer/Producer structure has been in place since practically the time video games started getting made.

 

Devs make a game. Marketers hype it. Things get changed. QA has oversights. THIS HAS NOT AND NEVER WILL CHANGE because everyone who works these positions, despite how it may seem, are HUMANS. THEY MAKE MISTAKES AND CAUSE ERRORS.

 

Bugs are going to happen. It's not like we've hit 2012 and all of a sudden magically bugs just vanish and every piece of software ever made no longer has issues.

 

That being said, there are issues, but that's also the territory that comes from playing a game from launch. If you don't like it, show the company with your wallet. And there I agree with you.

 

But there never has been and never will be a magical time when a piece of software comes out of the gates perfect because "it's a new year, things have changed since the last time one of these was groundbreaking"

 

The same can be said for your post. The game is new it will have bugs, every mmo has bugs at launch, it comes with the territory.

 

When EVERY single boss is bugged in your first Operation...that is on Bioware. I will not make any excuses for them. They FAILED to test it properly and it should not have gone live. I am not complaining about small bugs..I am talkking about bugs that effect ones ability to actually play the game.

 

I agree, you should make your statement with your wallet, that is precisly my point. At its core this game is very fun, but if they cannot fix these bugs...many many poeple are GOING to unsub...its a simple fact. I will give them about 2 more months. But if operations are bugged at every boss, cant form a 16 man group because players get randomly removed, have to reset instances. Game over.

 

Again, I think Bioware can fix it, but they have to do it fast. Keep bad, buggy content off live and on the PTS until it is ready. THey cant have another eternity vault.

[Novacanee]

This analogy would work better if SWTOR were a new car and your computer was your own personal stretch of highway.

 

Drive that same brand new car on millions of different highways (representing the vast amount of computer hardware configurations) with millions of different signs/directions/potholes/conditions/etc (vast amount of computer software configurations).

 

Most highways will be normal and the car will run fine. Some highways will have preexisting issues such as potholes (viruses/malware/adware). Some may be too skinny (lack recommended specs) and not allow the car to run perfectly on them. Some may be so skinny (lack required specs) that the car can't fit on them at all. Some may have so many other cars (pieces of software) that SWTOR gets stuck in traffic. Some may have speed limits signs (bandwidth) that restrict the car to go a certain speed.

 

Still pretty shoddy analogy, but as with any software, most customers tend to forget it is on them to make sure their computer is in working condition.

 

Even with this though, I will agree that if SWTOR were a car it would still have some issues regardless of the highway it was placed on.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Novacanee

[looneybinjim]

news flash: swtor is not a car

[gangbot]

or any other MMO.

[Grandpappy]

What companies? I've never, ever, ever in my life come across a bug-free game. Not once during 25 years of gaming.

 

Or are you talking about the kind of "bugs" that are realy just matters of opinion? Because I don't think that should count. If half the playerbase looks at a feature or lack there of, and say "This makes the game unplayable!" and the other half looks at it and say "Realy? I didn't even notice", then by defenition it is not game breaking.

 

I've seen a lot of buggier games then this. SWG, WoW, CoH and Conan all contained far more bugs at launch for me. For someone else they might have contained less.

 

Empire Total War recieved a lot of heat for some pretty major bugs, yet I have not encountered even one of those major bugs after more than 500 hours of playtime.

 

StarCraft 2 has been enjoyed by many of my friends, who all reported little to no bugs. yet I have yet to play it, because after many, many attempts and a lot of hours mailing tech support, I have still not been able to get the game to run for even a second on my computer.

 

But I'm rambling. The bottom line is that the car analogy is flawed, stupid and could only work in an alternate reality where a new car would run you 1000$ and only take a month to develop.

 

Actually...bugs aren't the real problem. Performance issues, PVP that sucks and was made worse by that idiotic patch 1.1 and general incompetence from the dev dept dealing with the bugs and creating new ones are the main problems.

 

Millions were spent on VO's and the rest of the game was just "tacked on" - and not very well I might add. When the general population gets to 50 and finds out that the only new content they're going to get for a while is rolling an alt - you'll see many more people leaving.

[doctor_atomic]

Given that the MMO's genre is not new and Bioware has entered into the world of MMO's with SWTOR as its flagship IP.

 

I hear a lot of talk from people making representations on how it's hard to make a MMO and there are always glitches and problems, and the devs will sort it out eventually.

 

<complaints snipped>.

 

Absolutely correct if this game were a car, but it is not a car, it is a video game. As such, there is only one metric, do you enjoy playing it or not? If you enjoy it then you play it, if not you find something else to do. The consequences of the state of a video game on the universe are insignificant so why post long whines on a forum instead of finding something else to do?

 

The other thing to consider is that when a new car is designed and produced you don't have suits and investors pushing for the cars release so they can get some return on their investment. The development of a new car is funded from beginning to end. The process of bringing a car to market and bringing a MMO to market are so different that your whole analogy is pointless and only illustrates that you have way too much time on your hands.

[skitzopath]

Was really hoping that this would be a thread complaining about how this is 2012 and games should be realeased with 4 years of development and 7 years of patches / expansions / experience in getting it right the first time... Oh and maybe something along the lines of SWtOr isn't competing with another MMO that just came out also.

[Valenthor]

Analogies are the argument tool of the ignorant and uncreative.

[MaximusRex]

You can't possibly think that bugs/flaws like ability delay, the lack of high res textures, fps performance issues, lack of UI customization, poor GTN design, etc are 'user error'? I like this game, but I do realize it is far from perfect. I have faith BW will get it right but I don't let my enjoyment of the game cloud the fact that there are some real issues here.

 

Most of those are designs that aren't liked, not bugs. No matter what they do to the GTN, there will always be people that aren't happy with how they do it. I'm not saying it can't be better, just that features that need to be iterated on still really shouldn't be lumped together with bugs.

[Tirfin]

Well, this is how I see the analogy:

 

For me the only issues I have had with the game have been: green light shows, some minimal quest malfunction (companion broke on two total), and I have finally seen the ability delay today...

 

I bought a new 2011 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport (one step below the hatch back WRX) just over a year ago. The right blinker shorted out after about a month, and when I changed it, did it again after two weeks. The blue tooth phone is finicky at best, and completely hears the wrong thing at worse, the ipod function can only read the first 100 or so categories out of they 80gb of music I have, and I had to pay extra for cup holders in the back seat...Oh, and the flat tire light got stuck twice (once after a flat, once randomly while taking the GF's mom the the airport, that sucked).

 

I LOOOOOOOOOVE my car!!! Great handling, nice engine (got it before the 30 hp engine nerf this year), manual transmission, and downright fun to drive. None of the issues really took from my experience. I feel much the same way about SWTOR, and I only payed 50 bucks for it, no insurance, and the gas (ie subscription) is cheaper too!

 

edit: Oh, and the dealership fixed everything in time too...

Edited January 24, 2012 by Tirfin

[anhtice]

its like this game has no Quality control or TQM.

[Syylara]

Analogies are the argument tool of the ignorant and uncreative.

 

Actually, analogies take a degree of imagination to come up with.

 

I'm not sure how ignorance fits at all, as that is the lack of desire to expand knowledge.

 

Using an ad hominem, however reveals you have nothing to say against the idea being discussed itself and must instead resort to attacking the person making the arguments.

 

Usually this is caused by a lack of desire to hear other points of view.