Luke, worst Jedi in history?

[Rayla_Felana]

Vader was practiced. Sith practice diligently even if they're not fighting anyone. You are mostly right however. Vader did not want to kill Luke. Luke called him out of it in return of the Jedi. He could sense the conflict within him. To use the dark side properly. You must give in to your passions. Being conflicted means you can't fight to your full potential and when you don't want to kill someone you're going to hold back. The dark side, along with his suit, was the only thing keeping him alive. So not being able to use the dark side had an even worse effect on Vader than it would against a normal force user. He was literally crippled by his conflict in ROTJ.

 

In the jedi academy series. Luke expresses that if Vader really wanted to kill him. He'd have been dead. This makes sense. Vader is one of the best duelists the order has ever seen. If he wanted to kill Luke.. it'd have been over.

 

Completely agreed.

[Noczod]

I also agree with this.

[Preventer-Blaze]

+1 in this one.

[blaquelotus]

I really don't like going to the novelizations when it comes to these sorts of things. Albeit the new series kind of requires some sort of extra input due to their lack of layers. However the original series always stood well on their own. The EU stuff in my opinion is largely best ignored.

 

That said given the relative design of the OT it always appeared to me that Luke clearly dominated the final duel in RotJ. Vader wasn't just holding back because he wanted to convert Luke.

 

Vader's dialogue in that movie demonstrated a lack of conviction in the path he'd taken in life and possible regret. When Luke surrendered on Endor and Vader said that it was to late for him. The sadness in his voice to me seems clear. Vader had come to a point where he felt he'd fallen so far that he felt he was a prisoner to Dark Side and the Emperor. Trapped by the weight of his mistakes if you will.

 

Luke on the other hand clearly was filled with conviction and clarity of purpose. The Force was with him as they say. Even when faced with two of the most powerful Force users the galaxy had known. Luke for the most part seemed totally unconcerned. The battle of wills wasn't between Vader and Luke it was between the Emperor and Luke. Vader was only a pivot point. Luke wished to rescue him, and the Emperor wished to use him to convert Luke. Vader was torn between the two and as such, he was "weak".

 

As to the quality of the duels to be honest, I felt more tension and emotion in those slow deliberate power swings of Vader and Luke than on any of the pristine scripted battles of the NT (beautiful as they were).

[beepinbeeper]

obi wan was the best for sure but

It was darth vader that brought balance to the force!

Because luke was strong in the mind!

[Eldartank]

Judging by his lightsaber skills?

 

In Return of the Jedi, when he fights Vader on the death star he moves so slow and he sucks dueling.

 

He cant be compared to Vader on Mustafar when Vader fought Obi Wan

 

 

/discuss

 

You're actually basing the character skills on how the moviemakers did the choreography? Really? You have to realize that in the original trilogy, they didn't have the best choreography for the lightsaber duels. In the prequel trilogy, they actually had an expert martial artist doing all the choreography for the lightsaber duels.

[HalloWorld]

Yeah and if you read the books he ends up being a very powerful swordsmen, plus he did beat Vader who was the only one who came close to beating Yoda who was supposed to be the best swordsmen in the universe.

 

That is untrue. Vader sucks after putting himself into the suit. He moves slower and much clumpier than ever before. But because of his cybernetics he is much stronger and thus it became his advantage. It is mentioned that he was forced to change his lightsaber style after wearing the armor. The best swordman at that time in the universe? Galen Marek (yea I hate this fact too, but you can't ignore the fact that he made vader looks like a ragdoll).

Edited January 24, 2012 by HalloWorld

[Kraygh]

It may just be me, but I found the Vader / Luke duel aboard the Death Star to be by far the most dramatic and exciting fight of the entire series, the Prequel lightsabre combat seemed weightless and overly acrobatic.

 

It's like watching Enter the Dragon compared to any Jackie Chan film.

[Wolfninjajedi]

That is untrue. Vader sucks after putting himself into the suit. He moves slower and much clumpier than ever before. But because of his cybernetics he is much stronger and thus it became his advantage. It is mentioned that he was forced to change his lightsaber style after wearing the armor. The best swordman at that time in the universe? Galen Marek (yea I hate this fact too, but you can't ignore the fact that he made vader looks like a ragdoll).

 

What?....I don't see how killing several jedi throughout the GCW era, and taking on several jedi masters at once all who were younger and more agile then him makes him weak in the suit.

[Rhyltran]

That is untrue. Vader sucks after putting himself into the suit. He moves slower and much clumpier than ever before. But because of his cybernetics he is much stronger and thus it became his advantage. It is mentioned that he was forced to change his lightsaber style after wearing the armor. The best swordman at that time in the universe? Galen Marek (yea I hate this fact too, but you can't ignore the fact that he made vader looks like a ragdoll).

 

How so? He defeated Vader but only by a hair. How is that a ragdoll?

[HalloWorld]

From the game, it was definitely ragdoll roll. I (starkiller) slaughtered Vader in the even the hardest difficulty~

[HalloWorld]

What?....I don't see how killing several jedi throughout the GCW era, and taking on several jedi masters at once all who were younger and more agile then him makes him weak in the suit.

 

He was extraordinarily powerful in the force. Vader is powerful but the suit limited his potential. You have to understand that just because he is the ****** Darth Vader doesn't mean he has to be the best of all Jedi Masters/Sith Lords. Strong in the force is one thing, knowing how to control it and to fully utilize its potential is another. We were talking about the best swordman, so it has to lend down to Galen Marek (who is basically a false character to begin with). Vader's prosthetic limbs allow him to hit harder with a lightsaber. His suit makes him less agile then those without one, but his force ability and cybernetic enhancements make up for it's sake. He is incapable of the acrobatics combat of Ataru form, and his (forced) new combat style is heavily rely on Djem So form and as some Makashi and Juyo.

Edited January 27, 2012 by HalloWorld

[Rayla_Felana]

He was extraordinarily powerful in the force. Vader is powerful but the suit limited his potential. You have to understand that just because he is the ****** Darth Vader doesn't mean he has to be the best of all Jedi Masters/Sith Lords. Strong in the force is one thing, knowing how to control it and to fully utilize its potential is another. We were talking about the best swordman, so it has to lend down to Galen Marek (who is basically a false character to begin with). Vader's prosthetic limbs allow him to hit harder with a lightsaber. His suit makes him less agile then those without one, but his force ability and cybernetic enhancements make up for it's sake. He is incapable of the acrobatics combat of Ataru form, and his (forced) new combat style is heavily rely on Djem So form and as some Makashi and Juyo.

 

Vader was the most dominant combatant in the EU, he was extremely hard to kill(Impaled himself through the chest to kill Darth Maul, wasn't immediately killed by Sidious' strongest lightning), a mere flick of his wrist could disarm the strongest opponents, he faced off, single-handedly, an entire alien army and inflicted massive losses before they came to terms, he had the most powerful force choke, was dark side rage incarnate and could kill some of the most powerful Jedi ever, Darth Vader was most probably the single greatest Djem-So practitioner ever, his immense strength and ferocity are unmatched, never under-estimate Vader, his potential was limited, but he was still one of the greatest ever.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[MRCHalifax]

In terms of raw strength and ability in the Force, Luke Skywalker is second to none, not even his father. Luke learned enough about the Force in what was at most a few weeks of training that he acquitted himself well on Bespin. He didn't win, didn't have any hope of winning, but he evaded Vader's attempt to carbon freeze him and he escaped in the end - how many other Jedi can make that claim?

 

In the Expanded Universe, Luke basically says screw raw power, I'm going to trust the Force. He very deliberately keeps his power usage in check, instead relying on the Force for intuition and guidance. In the EU, Luke can and does go toe-to-toe with an Eldrich Abomination that was so unkillable and dangerous that an ancient race built a black hole cluster to imprison it.

 

The only downside to Luke as a Jedi is that he's had at least four people he's taught turn to the Dark Side (out of several hundred); in two of the cases, it involved an ancient Sith Lord, in one it involved Luke thinking he could train someone who was mentally on the Dark Side when he started his training, and in one it involved a person being tortured, influenced by a Sith while being tortured, potentially being influenced by the Eldrich Abomination mentioned above, and seeing a vision of the future that indicated he needed to go Sith to save the galaxy.

 

 

 

Also, I'm convinced that Luke is still alive as of the Star Wars: Legacy comic series. I figure that he figures that if you save the galaxy yourself, it'll be safe for a week. But if you help other people learn how to save the galaxy, they can keep saving the galaxy and you can keep enjoying retirement. Also, the man clearly enjoys trolling Cade.

Edited January 27, 2012 by MRCHalifax

[bizcuits]

Your comparing a movie from the 80s to a movie that came out in 05, big time gap where movie effects could be used. But no hes not, he goes onto be the most powerful jedi ever after ROTJ.

 

Easy to be the most powerful jedi when you are the ONLY one left... just saying

[Propecius]

I always figured that was what the throwaway line about the Jedi losing their connection to the Force was about. Over time, the Force was growing weaker for everyone, so by the time of Ep 4-6, light sabers were effectively heavier and harder to wield.

 

Maybe that was what Episodes 7-9 were going to follow up on. (Or was it just the existence of the Sith that was interfering with the connection? I was never clear on that.)

[JonnyBell]

Thats because George Lucas thought a load of fancy fighting, action and CGI with very little story would sell better than the originals, where Luke fought Vader like in a way which would actually happen in real life. Also Luke beat Vader when he was filled with rage, hence why he was so sloppy.

[HalloWorld]

In terms of raw strength and ability in the Force, Luke Skywalker is second to none, not even his father. Luke learned enough about the Force in what was at most a few weeks of training that he acquitted himself well on Bespin. He didn't win, didn't have any hope of winning, but he evaded Vader's attempt to carbon freeze him and he escaped in the end - how many other Jedi can make that claim?

 

In the Expanded Universe, Luke basically says screw raw power, I'm going to trust the Force. He very deliberately keeps his power usage in check, instead relying on the Force for intuition and guidance. In the EU, Luke can and does go toe-to-toe with an Eldrich Abomination that was so unkillable and dangerous that an ancient race built a black hole cluster to imprison it.

 

The only downside to Luke as a Jedi is that he's had at least four people he's taught turn to the Dark Side (out of several hundred); in two of the cases, it involved an ancient Sith Lord, in one it involved Luke thinking he could train someone who was mentally on the Dark Side when he started his training, and in one it involved a person being tortured, influenced by a Sith while being tortured, potentially being influenced by the Eldrich Abomination mentioned above, and seeing a vision of the future that indicated he needed to go Sith to save the galaxy.

 

 

 

Also, I'm convinced that Luke is still alive as of the Star Wars: Legacy comic series. I figure that he figures that if you save the galaxy yourself, it'll be safe for a week. But if you help other people learn how to save the galaxy, they can keep saving the galaxy and you can keep enjoying retirement. Also, the man clearly enjoys trolling Cade.

 

Haha the son always gets the better of his father:L!

And all i know about later on is that Cade basically going to be on top just because of his handy healing ability

Edited January 28, 2012 by HalloWorld

[HalloWorld]

Vader was the most dominant combatant in the EU, he was extremely hard to kill(Impaled himself through the chest to kill Darth Maul, wasn't immediately killed by Sidious' strongest lightning), a mere flick of his wrist could disarm the strongest opponents, he faced off, single-handedly, an entire alien army and inflicted massive losses before they came to terms, he had the most powerful force choke, was dark side rage incarnate and could kill some of the most powerful Jedi ever, Darth Vader was most probably the single greatest Djem-So practitioner ever, his immense strength and ferocity are unmatched, never under-estimate Vader, his potential was limited, but he was still one of the greatest ever.

 

I'm 100% with ya

 

"some of the most powerful jedi ever - of its time"

Edited January 28, 2012 by HalloWorld

[SpawnMorePsi]

I keep seeing Yoda being the best swordsman. What? He was good, But I wouldn't say he was the best.

 

Mace Windu is one of the people I'd say are the strongest. He took on the Emperor. It might not look impressive in the movie, But that's because Lucas didn't want to use CG like he did with the Yoda/Emperor fight. He can use shatterpoints. (And afterawrds he showed his prowess in the force, Taking on the Emperors Lightning and even reflecting it.) That alone says a lot about how strong he was. I'd say the only one able to fight him is Obi-wan, and that's only because he's such an extreme master of Soretsu and Windu wouldn't get a lot (if any) chances to use shatterpoints versus Obi-wan.

 

Obi wan used this in the fight against Anakin. Anakin, being fueled at that point by rage and arrogance, got the short straw versus Obi-wans collected defensive form. Anakin got impatience and ended up pretty much killing himself.

 

My point? There is no A > B. B > C Theyfore A > C logic in this universe. Different forms have their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Luke Skywalker is probably one of the few that is outside this rule.

Edited January 28, 2012 by SpawnMorePsi

[Rhyltran]

From the game, it was definitely ragdoll roll. I (starkiller) slaughtered Vader in the even the hardest difficulty~

 

Gameplay mechanics don't count. The novel is more canon. When it comes to games only the cut scenes matter.

 

Canon wise Starkiller barely defeated Vader and he attributed his victory to luck. There is no luck in Star Wars but that's hardly the point. The point is he won on such a slim shot he's not sure if it'd have been the same way a second time.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Rhyltran

[Wolfninjajedi]

He was extraordinarily powerful in the force. Vader is powerful but the suit limited his potential. You have to understand that just because he is the ****** Darth Vader doesn't mean he has to be the best of all Jedi Masters/Sith Lords. Strong in the force is one thing, knowing how to control it and to fully utilize its potential is another. We were talking about the best swordman, so it has to lend down to Galen Marek (who is basically a false character to begin with). Vader's prosthetic limbs allow him to hit harder with a lightsaber. His suit makes him less agile then those without one, but his force ability and cybernetic enhancements make up for it's sake. He is incapable of the acrobatics combat of Ataru form, and his (forced) new combat style is heavily rely on Djem So form and as some Makashi and Juyo.

 

Vader practically WAS the best swordsmen(aside from Palpatine) during that timeframe, Galen barely won against Vader in the novel(which is actual canon, not game mechanics.)

[grandmthethird]

technically its because in the 80s lucas wanted the lightsaber to be like a heavy sword. but when making the last 3 films it suited the pace of the films more (and i personally think it made more sense) to have the lightsaber light weight

 

however your question is luke the worst jedi? i would have to say yes, but to be fair he had hardly any training, and he started much to late.

Edited January 28, 2012 by grandmthethird

[Rayla_Felana]

I'm 100% with ya

 

"some of the most powerful jedi ever - of its time"

 

No, of all time, he was superior to Obi-Wan, Cin Drallig, Shaak Ti and if you want to count him, Darth Tyrannus.

[BlackLotus]

technically its because in the 80s lucas wanted the lightsaber to be like a heavy sword. but when making the last 3 films it suited the pace of the films more (and i personally think it made more sense) to have the lightsaber light weight

 

however your question is luke the worst jedi? i would have to say yes, but to be fair he had hardly any training, and he started much to late.

 

actually the worst Jedi would be Zayne Carrick . He was beaten by a non-force user and had very little control or grasp on his force power. Untrained Luke > Trained Zayne Carrick. But in Zayne's defence it seems like the force liked him well enough . I mean he did come out on top no matter what was thrown at him much to the displeasure of his Jedi Master, also kind of ironic that he never physically killed any of the jedi masters that went after him.

 

Luke view on the Force in the EU very much portray Qui Gon Jinn's view of the living force, not surprising since Qui Gon trained Obi wan and even when Qui gon died he continued to train Obi Wan as a force ghost and I don't remember the quote but it say that Qui Gon lightsaber skills were on par with Mace Windu.