xxdragonragexx Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) People are confusing gear progression with expertise. A lot of people think that if we take out expertise, there won't be any gear progression meaning a new level 50 will be on equal terms with a valor 60 battlemaster. This is just not true. Think about this for a second. If we take out expertise, this game will still have tier 1, tier 2, pvp gear that have no expertise. They maybe equal to raiding gear but there will still be gear progression. So let's say tier 1 gear with expertise gives 10% dmg reduction and 10% more damage. If there is no expertise, tier 1 will still give 10% dmg reduction and 10% more damage. Gear stats or gear progression is just calculated like that. In games like SWTOR, there will always be gear progression. Even if you take out expertise, battlemaster gear will still be as powerful as the battlemaster gear with expertise. A new level 50 will never be on equal terms with a full battlemaster geared player with or without expertise. Expertise is just here to make sure that raiders don't dominate pvpers. Also so that pvpers don't use pvp gear to advance through raiding content at an extremely fast pace. Edited January 22, 2012 by xxdragonragexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehash Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) People are confusing gear progression with expertise. A lot of people think that if we take out expertise, there won't be any gear progression meaning a new level 50 will be on equal terms with a valor 60 battlemaster. This is just not true. Think about this for a second. If we take out expertise, this game will still have tier 1, tier 2, pvp gear that have no expertise. They maybe equal to raiding gear but there will still be gear progression. So let's say tier 1 gear with expertise gives 10% dmg reduction and 10% more damage. If there is no expertise, tier 1 will still give 10% dmg reduction and 10% more damage. In games like SWTOR, there will always be gear progression. Even if you take out expertise, battlemaster gear will still be as powerful as the battlemaster gear with expertise. A new level 50 will never be on equal terms with a full battlemaster geared player with or without expertise. Expertise is just here to make sure that raiders don't dominate pvpers. Also so that pvpers don't use pvp gear to advance through raiding content at an extremely fast pace. Why shouldn't a new 50 be on an even playing field, gear wise, with a battlemaster? Isn't the battlemaster an epic pvper that wouldn't need such an advantage to beat a new 50? EDIT: that said, you are right. Expertise /= gear progression Edited January 22, 2012 by Rehash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stopsight Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Why shouldn't a new 50 be on an even playing field, gear wise, with a battlemaster? Isn't the battlemaster an epic pvper that wouldn't need such an advantage to beat a new 50? EDIT: that said, you are right. Expertise /= gear progression The entire basis for keeping people interested is rewarding them for their spent time. One way to do that is Valor ranks, the other is through earning higher levels of gear. Some would pvp just for the fun of it, but most respond far better to material rewards, a feeling of accomplishing something. Why have gear drop at all? New raids could just be scaled so that the same gear can be used for them and only new tactics are required, but it would lead to a far less successful business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellarex Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 You are wrong not all mmos have gear progression. You can balance pve and pvp without gear progression by making the best gear craftable and giving the players the ability customize their gear. BW does this from 1-49 with customizable orange gear and then completely drops that and makes you grind for the best gear. If you want to keep expertise provide craftable items with expertise. WoW pvp was fail this almost just as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellarex Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 The entire basis for keeping people interested is rewarding them for their spent time. One way to do that is Valor ranks, the other is through earning higher levels of gear. Some would pvp just for the fun of it, but most respond far better to material rewards, a feeling of accomplishing something. Why have gear drop at all? New raids could just be scaled so that the same gear can be used for them and only new tactics are required, but it would lead to a far less successful business model. Daoc specifically failed due to the addition of gear grind so I disagree with you on the business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 The gear grind is there because WoW is the most successful MMO. Copying what worked for WoW while implementing better story telling, immersion and etc. is Bioware's best bet to make a lot of money. It will be fun to have no gear progression but it will never happen in this game. I don't mind having the same gear as everyone else but it will never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlander Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Daoc specifically failed due to the addition of gear grind so I disagree with you on the business model. Many games have not failed... yes, i am going to say it WOW!!! So if everything can be gotten through crafting then what would you do for an end game? If you remove pvp/expertise gear then how would you stop pve gear from owning ppl in pvp? Edited January 22, 2012 by Badlander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokai Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Why shouldn't a new 50 be on an even playing field, gear wise, with a battlemaster? Isn't the battlemaster an epic pvper that wouldn't need such an advantage to beat a new 50? EDIT: that said, you are right. Expertise /= gear progression that is like saying someone fresh to 50 should be on even terms with a fully geared pve player. This is an mmo and gear will always play a vital role its something we have to come to grips with. As far as expertise its true purpose is to set apart pvpers from pvers and keeps two styles of game play seperate from one another. Thus won't get full tier 3 raiders walking all over pvpers in fact they are at a disadvantage and should lose in grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehash Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 If you remove pvp/expertise gear then how would you stop pve gear from owning ppl in pvp? Create a PvE stat that allows players to scale against PvE mobs. Easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 I see a lot of people complaining about expertise since they are new to level 50 and can't compete very well against battlemasters. However, expertise really has nothing to do with this. Battlemasters will still own fresh 50s with or without expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirin Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 that is like saying someone fresh to 50 should be on even terms with a fully geared pve player. This is an mmo and gear will always play a vital role its something we have to come to grips with. As far as expertise its true purpose is to set apart pvpers from pvers and keeps two styles of game play seperate from one another. Thus won't get full tier 3 raiders walking all over pvpers in fact they are at a disadvantage and should lose in grand scheme of things. Actually I think it was more or less to give PvP players gear progression that could put them on even terms with raiders in PvP, but not in raids. This seems to be the philosophy, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKfourtyseven Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I see a lot of people complaining about expertise since they are new to level 50 and can't compete very well against battlemasters. However, expertise really has nothing to do with this. Battlemasters will still own fresh 50s with or without expertise. I dont really agree with this. When i first hit 50 i was doing well in WZ's but found it impossible to break into the top 3 and certain medals were impossible for me to get. Some classes i had serious trouble with. Once the RNG gods stopped hating me and i got some gear, with almost no change to my skill level on that character? Top 3's easy, very few classes giving me trouble. Everything became easy once i got 2-3 bits of Champ gear. A Battlemaster should own a fresh 50, but since i have owned many BMs and im nowhere near their rank? Im sorry, anyone who thinks gear doesnt make a huge difference either forgot what it was like or was ahead of the curve and was rolling non-50s for the first 2 weeks of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKfourtyseven Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Actually I think it was more or less to give PvP players gear progression that could put them on even terms with raiders in PvP, but not in raids. This seems to be the philosophy, anyway. This sounds likely. The raid gear has much better stats and if it werent for expertise, a raider would have a huge gear gap on somebody who never stepped foot inside a raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vis-Tecum Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Create a PvE stat that allows players to scale against PvE mobs. Easy. correct me if im wrong but are you saying replace pvp expertise with pve expertise? my understanding of expertise is that it keeps pvp and pve progression seprate. if this is correct it works really well because i have full pvp gear but am still working on pve gear if they were the same i would be done already without ever raiding and have no way to advance my gear. this way it takes twice as long and i have to do pvp and pve content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 I dont really agree with this. When i first hit 50 i was doing well in WZ's but found it impossible to break into the top 3 and certain medals were impossible for me to get. Some classes i had serious trouble with. Once the RNG gods stopped hating me and i got some gear, with almost no change to my skill level on that character? Top 3's easy, very few classes giving me trouble. Everything became easy once i got 2-3 bits of Champ gear. A Battlemaster should own a fresh 50, but since i have owned many BMs and im nowhere near their rank? Im sorry, anyone who thinks gear doesnt make a huge difference either forgot what it was like or was ahead of the curve and was rolling non-50s for the first 2 weeks of the game. You missed the point. A battlemaster gear will still be XXX% better than new level 50 gear with or without expertise. Battlemaster gear is just gear progression. Even if you take out expertise, a battlemaster will still have better gear than a fresh 50 and that battlemaster will still have a huge advantage even if there is no such thing as expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vis-Tecum Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) does anyone pvp in raid gear? i was wondering how having better stats does up against expertise in pvp Edited January 22, 2012 by Vis-Tecum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerdoc Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Many games have not failed... yes, i am going to say it WOW!!! So if everything can be gotten through crafting then what would you do for an end game? If you remove pvp/expertise gear then how would you stop pve gear from owning ppl in pvp? You don't? You just have an alternate route to get gear. Now if you are PVEr and want to PVP you are screwed. However you can PVE just fine as PVPer. And please, don't even start with crafting, best items without hardcore raiding and luck on drops are rating 126 lvl 49 purples with low endurance. If you don't understand, don't post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellarex Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Many games have not failed... yes, i am going to say it WOW!!! So if everything can be gotten through crafting then what would you do for an end game? If you remove pvp/expertise gear then how would you stop pve gear from owning ppl in pvp? Um did you read what I wrote? I am advocating removing gear progression based on stats entirely in both pvp and pve. Pve rewards should be equivalent to crafted gear just flashier. People don't care about stats they want what looks cool and the challenge of the encounter. In regards to crafting the best schematics should be available from trainer not from pve raiding. Edited January 22, 2012 by Stellarex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDProletariat Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Why shouldn't a new 50 be on an even playing field, gear wise, with a battlemaster? Isn't the battlemaster an epic pvper that wouldn't need such an advantage to beat a new 50? EDIT: that said, you are right. Expertise /= gear progression Perhaps you missed the part where you are playing an RPG. RPGs have gear progression. If you want something based purely on skill on equal footing, play something like SC2 or GW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 You don't? You just have an alternate route to get gear. Now if you are PVEr and want to PVP you are screwed. However you can PVE just fine as PVPer. And please, don't even start with crafting, best items without hardcore raiding and luck on drops are rating 126 lvl 49 purples with low endurance. If you don't understand, don't post. BiS pve gear still comes from raiding. You can still pvp with raiding gear and you will get carried by people who have it. You can still raid with PvP gear but you will get carried by the people who have raiding gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDProletariat Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 People don't care about stats they want what looks cool and the challenge of the encounter. Buahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha that was a funny joke, bro. Kudos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaManoNera Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 The entire basis for keeping people interested is rewarding them for their spent time. One way to do that is Valor ranks, the other is through earning higher levels of gear. Some would pvp just for the fun of it, but most respond far better to material rewards, a feeling of accomplishing something. Sooo... Explain again WHY there needs to be an arbitrary PvP stat on PvP armor...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerdoc Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) BiS pve gear still comes from raiding. You can still pvp with raiding gear and you will get carried by people who have it. You can still raid with PvP gear but you will get carried by the people who have raiding gear. And this is why Warhammer system was best. No one was carried. There was no expertise BS, just different gear looks and different stats suited for different specs of each class. You could PVP and PVE for equally strong gear, difference was that say, for healer, PVE drops were for pure healing while PVP set was for DPS. Tier higher it was reversed. I fail to see why it wouldn't work here just as well. Warhammer screwed many things, but gear progression there was PERFECT. Edited January 22, 2012 by Lerdoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) And this is why Warhammer system was best. No one was carried. There was no expertise BS, just different gear looks and different stats suited for different specs of each class. You could PVP and PVE for equally strong gear, difference was that say, for healer, PVE drops were for pure healing while PVP set was for DPS. Tier higher it was reversed. I fail to see why it wouldn't work here just as well. Warhammer screwed many things, but gear progression there was PERFECT. Not really, in warhammer, the BiS gear is in the PvE content. Any pvper that do not raid will lose to a pver because pvers get access to trinkets. I remember, the best weapons came from the 40 man raid boss in the land of the dead. Edited January 23, 2012 by xxdragonragexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senaria Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm completly missing the point of this thread. Could someone enlighten me? (Here's what I think it's about) Removing expertise from the game would ruin pvping. A pvp-geared player should always have the advantage over an pve-geared player in pvp, which is what expertise is for. And using pvp-gear in pve should put you at an disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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