Is anyone else tired of Bioware pissing on Sentinels?

[mufutiz]

 

Sentinels are a bad class not because of damage output but due to over-complexity and due to a lack of comparable utility.

 

qft.

 

This is exactly the problem of this class, but after reading an official response from, I think it was Ray Muzyka actually, that the game design intends Marauder and Sentinel to be a more "intense" class, I am getting the feeling being the weakest class in the game is working exactly as intended and will be a balancing goal they pursue in the future.

[Kovaos]

Sentinels are a bad class not because of damage output but due to over-complexity and due to a lack of comparable utility.

 

I liked your post until you said we are a bad class. It's foolish to say average damage for a Sent is 300K. Only a liar or troll would spew this from his mouth.

 

We are not bad. In certain situations we are just not as good.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I liked your post until you said we are a bad class. It's foolish to say average damage for a Sent is 300K. Only a liar or troll would spew this from his mouth.

 

We are not bad. In certain situations we are just not as good.

 

I would beg to differ.

 

I think we are a bad class but we are good in certain situations. In most situations everything I can do another class can do better. There are rare situations where things come together where I feel on par to other classes and where I feel better than other classes. There are many situations where the reverse is the case.

 

Guarding an objective in PVP?

Almost every class can do as well or better.

 

Healing in PVP?

Not an option.

 

Utilizing the environment to score instant kills or high damage maneuverse?

Not an option.

 

Damaging enemies?

Every other class can do this easier and has equal or greater damage potential.

 

Remaining healed?

Classes that don't have to move as much are simply easier to heal and keep healed.

 

Overcoming snares and roots?

Ranged classes are simply better at this than we are. Guardians are better at this than we are (pull.) as are Shadows.

 

Applying CC?

Every other class can do this better. We have the worst CC in the game.

 

Taking objectives in PVP?

Classes with long duration CC can do this easier than we can.

 

Killing healers in PVP?

Without an ability to stun and apply our high damage while doing so killing a healer in PVP is impossible without either having a massive equipment advantage or without someone else to help. They can easily heal through our damage.

[Kovaos]

Killing healers in PVP?

Without an ability to stun and apply our high damage while doing so killing a healer in PVP is impossible without either having a massive equipment advantage or without someone else to help. They can easily heal through our damage.

 

I am not sure if this is a troll post or not. We are probably the best class class to kill healers. Can you take a stab at why?

[DosPeros]

Did you read and not comprehend that those are Jedi Sentinel skills at the top, and Jedi Knight skills at the bottom?

 

You have several gap closers, slows, stuns, and damage mitigation. I don't see what the problem is really.

 

 

Sents only have one gap closer, (unless you go up the force tree which sucks) and two interrupts on long timers. We have no knockdowns or stuns effective against strong or better opponents accept awe which once the target takes damage breaks the effect.

 

More than half the time I leap at a target I get knocked back despite the fact this ability specifically says it is suppose to interrupt whatever action they are taking.

 

Our slowing attacks require focus..... if I can't hit you, I build no focus..... the longer you stay out of range whether to close for leap or to far a saber hit I can not generate the initial focus to use any of my attacks. Also when you are in cover I can't use force leap on you.

 

 

I will grant you this. If you stand perfectly still and let me pound away on you, you are probably gonna go down, so will you do that?

 

If you have not played a class you should not discuss the game mechanics of how it functions. The theory is great.... the reality is something else.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I am not sure if this is a troll post or not. We are probably the best class class to kill healers. Can you take a stab at why?

 

Don't even try to infer that Trauma seems to do anything because it doesn't help.

 

Crippling Throw induces a 20% penalty to all heals received by a target for 15 seconds. The issue is that they can heal themselves for far more than just 20% higher than our damage. Someone, for example, last night showed a screen shot of a healer hitting over one million damage healed.

 

He did this by going into Huttball and standing in acid for the whole match spamming heal.

 

So, no, it isn't a troll post at all.

 

Usually when we fight healers it works like this:

 

Open with crippling throw, deal damage, when the target hits 30% HP they heal themselves back to around 60% HP with small heals until we interrupt, then use a big heal. If that doesn't work they will simply stun/mez/root/snare us, back off (usually with speed to counter our own snare) then heal themselves.

 

The *best* way to kill a healer in PVP right now is as follows:

 

Frontload as much damage as possible. Interrupt them when they try to heal with the small heals. When they go for their big heal nail them with a mez or a stun in order to build up another session of high burst for the kill.

[Kovaos]

Sentinel PvP Guide

[aname=Healers]Taking Down Healers:[/aname]

As I see it, this is one of our main roles in a group PvP situation. First things first is get your slow up, followed by crippling throw as they will still get heals off(instants/hots). After that be sure to keep enough focus for your interrupt and use it on CD on a heal they are trying to cast. Never Force Stasis if your kick is up, save it for when they may actually get a heal off in between your Kick CD. You can also use Awe if you have nothing else to interrupt, but should be a last resort. If they get distance at any point, wait for them to stop and try to cast before Force Leaping back, so long as they don’t just straight book it out of range. You can also use Force Leap point blank as another interrupt depending on your spec, but be careful with that, cause if they get away afterwards your going to be wishing you had it.

 

A big key to taking down a healer is to remain calm and take it slow. It’s very easy with any target to see them get low and start spamming your damage moves as much as possible, but it’s an even worse mistake against a healer. Keep them slowed, keep them healing debuffed, and keep an eye on their casts for Kick.

 

If they are NOT solo and have another healer backing them up, well than you need backup too, you simply won’t be able to solo your way through 2 competent healers.

 

This little nugget of information can be found in our PvP sticky.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Kovaos

[Bishidoblade]

This could all be summed up by L2P. QQing about the game a month after its been out is stupid. Sorry you cant bind every ability to one key and roll your face on the keyboard to win. Now you'll really have to L2p.

 

 

If you don't like L2P then re reroll something easy.

[Hezakia]

Sents only have one gap closer, (unless you go up the force tree which sucks) and two interrupts on long timers. We have no knockdowns or stuns effective against strong or better opponents accept awe which once the target takes damage breaks the effect.

 

More than half the time I leap at a target I get knocked back despite the fact this ability specifically says it is suppose to interrupt whatever action they are taking.

 

Our slowing attacks require focus..... if I can't hit you, I build no focus..... the longer you stay out of range whether to close for leap or to far a saber hit I can not generate the initial focus to use any of my attacks. Also when you are in cover I can't use force leap on you.

 

 

I will grant you this. If you stand perfectly still and let me pound away on you, you are probably gonna go down, so will you do that?

 

If you have not played a class you should not discuss the game mechanics of how it functions. The theory is great.... the reality is something else.

 

Watchamn specced Sent here,

 

We have 4 Inter. (force kick, force stasis, Force leap, and Awe) the last is insanely situational but still counts. Healers should not be a real problem for you if you come at them the right way. Fighting any class with heals is all about forcing them to use a CC break, so you can stop that big heal you know is comming (with either Force stasis, which is awesome if you have + 3 OS and Caut up and locks them down for the durration, or Awe if any of your other two inter. are on CD or if FS is on CD). You have a snare and heal debuff which should be applied ASAP to prevent them from running (or even to force that cc break!!!) If Zen is up then you may as well /dance because they just cant outheal your incomming burn dmg + normal rotation. We have SO many tools because we have to use each dif. in every fight. Stop charging ranged classes like there melee, Learn to LOS your way to a target and use Force Camo as much as possible.

 

Just a side note: The above is how i kill healers, its all about forcing them to CC break so when i get them to ~50% and have OS + Caut up i can Zen + Force stasis (always reserved for healers in pvp =) and they would have to sit out the durration, by then its all over for them.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Hezakia

[Bishidoblade]

Don't forget the 20% healing debuff! All of the above with the weak-sauce MS on and goodnight!! =)

[K_osss]

@ ProfWalsh

 

I read most of your posts and pretty much disagree with all of them. Which is ok, cause you can have your own opinion. But for the less experienced sentinels you unfortunately paint a picture that is untrue. Nearly all your posts are largely negative and it would benefit the community, the game, and your class more if you used your time to constructively advance the class. Sure it's harder to come up with improvements over complaining but it has better results.

[Gbyrd]

I for one would like to see an ability that builds up focus for us IE. blood rage for warriors in wow (i think) would help the focus starvation that occurs. However there are a lot of glaring issues with this class.

[DosPeros]

Watchamn specced Sent here,

 

We have 4 Inter. (force kick, force stasis, Force leap, and Awe) the last is insanely situational but still counts. Healers should not be a real problem for you if you come at them the right way. Fighting any class with heals is all about forcing them to use a CC break, so you can stop that big heal you know is comming (with either Force stasis, which is awesome if you have + 3 OS and Caut up and locks them down for the durration, or Awe if any of your other two inter. are on CD or if FS is on CD). You have a snare and heal debuff which should be applied ASAP to prevent them from running (or even to force that cc break!!!) If Zen is up then you may as well /dance because they just cant outheal your incomming burn dmg + normal rotation. We have SO many tools because we have to use each dif. in every fight. Stop charging ranged classes like there melee, Learn to LOS your way to a target and use Force Camo as much as possible.

 

Just a side note: The above is how i kill healers, its all about forcing them to CC break so when i get them to ~50% and have OS + Caut up i can Zen + Force stasis (always reserved for healers in pvp =) and they would have to sit out the durration, by then its all over for them.

 

 

It's not that a Sent can't kill a healer, we can, and it's not that a Sent should always win , (which I would like to) It was merely stating that someone who has never played the class telling us what we have and why we should not discuss the short comings of certain abilities when the actual mechanics are different in reality than in theory.

 

I find that I have to hit all of my timers exactly right every time to be effective against an average to above average PVP'er. Miss one focus builder because you thought the CD was done but because they changed it look like it was up but you actually had 3 secs left on the timer and you spammed it wondering why it did not go off then a Sent is toast.

 

I have played smuggler to level 22 and Sent to 50. The smuggler is much easier to play because timing is much less relevant. They start with all of their abilities available we only start with a few because of the need to generate focus for all of our major attacks. No focus no damage no fun.

 

If your CD is down on force leap you have no quick way to generate more focus. Stasis is a great interrupt.... but it has a long timer. Awe is Awsome .... in PVE in PVP it is sucks for damage has a short range. force kick works as intended but has long CD.

 

Want to beat a Sent.....

Step one:Knock back or down,

Step two: snare, retreat and fire away. As a smuggler go into cover (because force leap does not work against you) Pound the hell out of them

 

Step three: If he does manage to finally make it back to you.... see step one.

[DosPeros]

I do not mean that Awe does damage only that it breaks when damage is applied....

[DoctorSeven]

How are there people who still think that Sentinels/Marauders are underpowered? I just don't understand.

Because after hitting 50 Sentinel we decided to roll another class.

 

Having taken a Sentinel to 50 they're undeniably useful in PVE. I roll with a raid group with another Sentinel and chaining our Inspiration and Pacify really helps on boss fights. Additionally we're both Watchmen so helping top off team healing doesn't hurt.

 

That said anyone who says we're not objectively the weakest PVP class obviously hasn't played another class.

 

I now have a 34 Guardian and a 31 Commando both are far more useful in PVP as they can offer excellent CC, can pushback mobs, can take more damage (which Rebuke isn't up which is easily ruined by someone who knows to just not attack you for a few seconds) and additionally they can both get medals easier which means more medals and better gear.

 

Sentinel PVP is a comparative joke when you look at other classes. Saying "oh well I do just fine" is all well and good, I was pretty damn good myself in PVP. However I can promise you that if you're able to do fine as a Sentinel you would be awash in the blood of your enemies if you rolled pretty much any other class. At level 21 on my Commando, on my first PVP game, I topped 250k damage and got 7 medals.

 

Again, any Sentinels out there who say "we're fine" I highly encourage you to roll another class so you can find out how not fine we are in PVP.

Edited January 26, 2012 by DoctorSeven

[ProfessorWalsh]

@ ProfWalsh

 

I read most of your posts and pretty much disagree with all of them. Which is ok, cause you can have your own opinion. But for the less experienced sentinels you unfortunately paint a picture that is untrue. Nearly all your posts are largely negative and it would benefit the community, the game, and your class more if you used your time to constructively advance the class. Sure it's harder to come up with improvements over complaining but it has better results.

 

Not only have I have offered improvements but I have painted by no means an untrue picture. I will not recommend or "advance" this class so long as it has the glaring problems it has.

 

The improvements we need are as follows:

 

1. A push/pull mechanic.

 

2. A stun that doesn't stun us that lasts for a minimum of 4 seconds. Even if it is on a long cool down of 1 minute or more.

 

3. An (at least) 10 second single target mez that has a long cool down.

 

4. Improve the speed boost from defensive forms to at least 21% (7% per rank) so that it can overcome some of the snares as every other speed ability can overcome our snare.

 

5. Fix resolve to break any CC one is under when it turns "white" to compensate have the CC not trigger resolve gain until the CC is broken or concluded.

 

I am sorry K_Oss but you are acting like an apologist. BioWare has made serious design errors with this class and even they admit that the class has quality of life issues. Our class was shoddily thrown together when compared to classes like Agents, Bounty Hunters, Troopers, and Smugglers.

Edited January 26, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[ProfessorWalsh]

This little nugget of information can be found in our PvP sticky.

 

That nugget doesn't work.

 

They have more heals than we have interrupts. We have 3 interrupts that can be used in melee range.

 

1. Force Kick, once every 8 seconds, it doesn't burn their ability however it only puts it on a 4 second cool down meaning they can re-cast it before your Force Kick refreshes.

 

2. Force Stasis, this does small damage, much less than one of their spells, if they have a HoT this accomplishes nothing as you cannot attack while using Force Stasis.

 

3. Awe, this is our best CC and probably one of the best abilities we have.

 

Non-Melee Range:

 

Force Leap, this is great, but as we are a melee class using it as a reliable interrupt against a healer you are trying to kill is more or less impossible.

[McVade]

Don't even try to infer that Trauma seems to do anything because it doesn't help.

 

Crippling Throw induces a 20% penalty to all heals received by a target for 15 seconds. The issue is that they can heal themselves for far more than just 20% higher than our damage. Someone, for example, last night showed a screen shot of a healer hitting over one million damage healed.

 

He did this by going into Huttball and standing in acid for the whole match spamming heal.

 

So, no, it isn't a troll post at all.

 

Usually when we fight healers it works like this:

 

Open with crippling throw, deal damage, when the target hits 30% HP they heal themselves back to around 60% HP with small heals until we interrupt, then use a big heal. If that doesn't work they will simply stun/mez/root/snare us, back off (usually with speed to counter our own snare) then heal themselves.

 

The *best* way to kill a healer in PVP right now is as follows:

 

Frontload as much damage as possible. Interrupt them when they try to heal with the small heals. When they go for their big heal nail them with a mez or a stun in order to build up another session of high burst for the kill.

 

I will say one thing - I got 99 problems playing a Sentinel. If I'm left alone on an unguarded healer, that healer isn't one of them. He's going to fall behind and die, end of story.

 

That may be a Watchman only benefit.

Edited January 26, 2012 by McVade

[Bishidoblade]

That nugget doesn't work.

 

They have more heals than we have interrupts. We have 3 interrupts that can be used in melee range.

 

1. Force Kick, once every 8 seconds, it doesn't burn their ability however it only puts it on a 4 second cool down meaning they can re-cast it before your Force Kick refreshes.

 

2. Force Stasis, this does small damage, much less than one of their spells, if they have a HoT this accomplishes nothing as you cannot attack while using Force Stasis.

 

3. Awe, this is our best CC and probably one of the best abilities we have.

 

Non-Melee Range:

 

Force Leap, this is great, but as we are a melee class using it as a reliable interrupt against a healer you are trying to kill is more or less impossible.

 

Sorry but if you cant manage to lock down a healer, your doing it wrong. Also try Watch spec if your having that many issues. No deadzone leap, 6 sec kick should be almost enough by themselves to kill a healer, let alone the other 2 you can use. Apply DoTs before you stasis someone and watch them burn. Ever Stasis someone over fire in hutball? obviously not.

 

There are some issues sure, but dont make it doom and gloom just because you cant do it. The game has been out how long? L2P - if these issues are truely game breaking they will get fixed anyways and your points are moot...

 

Or reroll... Jedi sent is one of the harder classes to play. Im sure there are some one button wonder classes available!

Edited January 27, 2012 by Bishidoblade

[Meatnose]

I agree with the point on Huttball. With so many classes having knockbacks, there's no point for a Sentinel to even go up on any of the bridges / walkways because within seconds we are kocked off. Even if you try to face the player so that you get knocked back in a direction that keeps you on the walkway, you cant line up everyone because every freaking class can knock you back.

[Hezakia]

That nugget doesn't work.

 

They have more heals than we have interrupts. We have 3 interrupts that can be used in melee range.

 

1. Force Kick, once every 8 seconds, it doesn't burn their ability however it only puts it on a 4 second cool down meaning they can re-cast it before your Force Kick refreshes.

 

2. Force Stasis, this does small damage, much less than one of their spells, if they have a HoT this accomplishes nothing as you cannot attack while using Force Stasis.

 

3. Awe, this is our best CC and probably one of the best abilities we have.

 

Non-Melee Range:

 

Force Leap, this is great, but as we are a melee class using it as a reliable interrupt against a healer you are trying to kill is more or less impossible.

 

1. FK can be specced to 6 seconds, 4 second lockout so at best they have 2 seconds on you before you can use it again (you have 3 other inter. you can rely on)

 

2. Your using force stasis wrong (well not wrong but not *wisely*, its ment to be used with OS + Caut as lockdown + dmg) Watchman that is.

 

3. I agree

 

about force leap- one of the best and most versitile moves we have, if you dont know why then i suggest playing another class.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Hezakia

[Kovaos]

Sorry but if you cant manage to lock down a healer, your doing it wrong. Also try Watch spec if your having that many issues. No deadzone leap, 6 sec kick should be almost enough by themselves to kill a healer, let alone the other 2 you can use. Apply DoTs before you stasis someone and watch them burn. Ever Stasis someone ever fire in hutball? obviously not.

 

There are some issues sure, but dont make it doom and gloom just because you cant do it. The game has been out how long? L2P - if these issues are truely game breaking they will get fixed anyways and your points are moot...

 

Or reroll... Jedi sent is one of the harder classes to play. Im sure there are some one button wonder classes available!

 

I agree. ProfessorWalsh must be part of a very small amount of Sents/Maras who have issues with healers. Watchman is phenomenal against healers with both of your points...a 6 sec cd on kick and a no range FL. I don't comprehend how Statis can be viewed negatively as an interrupt for healers...it does decent damage and it's an interrupt. As Focus my Stasis is ridiculous, not just because of it's base damage and interrupt, but because of what happens when I'm done with it...ZL then a nice FS. I have had 0 trouble with a healer of any class and any level.

 

The game changer of being a Sent is we need to use our brains more actively. If you can't do this another class is better suited for you. Don't ruin this class for everyone else who enjoys it.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Kovaos

[Erudain]

He said he is combat spec.....we all know combat is by far the worst sent spec atm

[ProfessorWalsh]

I will say one thing - I got 99 problems playing a Sentinel. If I'm left alone on an unguarded healer, that healer isn't one of them. He's going to fall behind and die, end of story.

 

That may be a Watchman only benefit.

 

Actually it is.

 

The burns can keep the HoTs from working and prevents the healer's spells from counter acting them as much. Combat has more of a problem followed by Focus. Watchman can overcome healers fairly easily however.

[ProfessorWalsh]

He said he is combat spec.....we all know combat is by far the worst sent spec atm

 

Indeed. Watchman, which people keep using as an example, doesn't encounter these issues.

 

However Combat is also supposed to be the PVP spec for Sentinels.