No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[ferroz]

The above statement says it all.

I think so. The item is designed to be worn by all of the classes that can equip it.

 

wearable or not: feeling entitled to get a piece of loot over another person is simply greed/selfishness. Calling it "need" is just being dishonest.

 

I guess your trooper is in Jedi robes and your Jedi sentinel is in smuggler gear.

I don't have a trooper or sentinel (well, neither of them are over level 1).

 

My smuggler has 2 pieces of jedi armor: the level 15 aspiring knight legs and chest, since I can make them on my main.

 

I don't really see the relevance.

 

This all makes perfect sense and you should now use the word "logic" like that makes your point of view unassailable.

This looks like a fallacious argument, specifically, an "argument by gibberish".

 

did you actually have some sort of point?

Edited January 25, 2012 by ferroz

[HanzoV]

It's definitely being GREEDY if you're rolling NEED on everything while the others in the group are only rolling on items with the stats that they use.

 

I have no problem with people rolling NEED all the time, but it's when they are trying to be deceptive about it, that it's an issue. Come correct, or don't come at all.

[uniz]

just because you can doesnt mean you should.

 

i can run a red light but should i?

 

the agruements supporting such behavior make me smile and question your parents parenting skills or lack of.

 

there are some options the op can use

 

1) ask for loot rules. if none or those that you dont like leave group

 

2) do what you just did and asked the person why he rolled. then when something nice drops for him need on his stuff. people like to state i came in here for such and such. keep that in mind when the same person rolls on stuff your class can use then do it to him. this gives alone i have found is the best teacher. paybacks are hell.

 

3) if a healer dont heal the person. let the dps die. let the tank sweat it out some if it was he. usually good tanks dont treat thier healers this crappy.

 

4) if a tank then dont taunt mobs off that person. let him die a few times or all the time.

 

5) if dps sadly you got screwed. not much to do here.

 

6) write the persons name down and also his guild. dont group with him again. stay away from his guildies. same like minded people usually guild together. good guilds know of thier bad apples and remove them. bad ones are all bad.

 

7) if a healer or tank just leave the group. make them look for another. in these games a good healer and or tank are priceless. those you put on a friends list and play with or even guild with.

 

there are alot of things you can do. doing nothing just lets this person know its ok and he will keep on doing it. sadly alot of people will need everything and is why there are guilds and people who need lfd. it is these types of mannorless players that need lfd.

[Xabana]

I'm fairly certain he's trolling us (he did admit himself that his opinions aren't based on any logical conclusion) and I'm not going to feed him anymore.

 

 

 

In all actuality, his argument fails based on one simple underlying assumption of his very own making.

 

In arguing that people rolling need is SELFISH, he misses the fact that people in MMOs roll need because it increases their stats and performance - therefore increasing the contribution they make to the entire MMO population. By getting better stats that better fit their class role, they can then perform their role better in Flashpoints, Warzones, etc. allowing for other people who group up with them to experience the content. Someone who rolls need on something that makes their costume look better is not contributing to the MMO experience.

 

Naturally, someone with a singular and insular-based, antisocial viewpoint would never even consider this. And, hence, you have his thinking.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Xabana

[eightohfive]

making personal assumptions coz u run out of arguments, eh?

 

i dont care about the "whole item" argument. it gives me more stats, i need on it. end of story.

 

oh and btw i am 37, married and selfemployed, just FYI

 

If you are rolling on an item for just the 1 mod...when someone else can use the whole item that is pretty f'd up. Flashpoints are a group thing, thus you should show some courtesy to the other people with you. What if you needed the new lightsaber that just dropped and some tech user takes it so he can put the enhancement in his boots? I doubt you would be too happy.

 

Pulling **** like that would get you booted from any *decent* group.

[ferroz]

I'm fairly certain he's trolling us (he did admit himself that his opinions aren't based on any logical conclusion)

No, I said that the piece that was quoted did not contain any logic, so citing "faulty" logic was an invalid argument.

 

 

I'm quite serious about this: if you're upset by someone in your group rolling need in a way that you think is inappropriate, then you're just being greedy. Waving the "I need it" flag is just self deception, and everyone would be better being a little more honest with themselves.

[ferroz]

In arguing that people rolling need is SELFISH, he misses the fact that people in MMOs roll need because it increases their stats and performance - therefore increasing the contribution they make to the entire MMO population.

No, it just increase your stats. It does not benefit the community at all.

 

Even if I did, I can point out that following this line of argument makes someone who rolls need and then puts the item on the GTN a potentially even less selfish individual, likewise for someone who need to give it to an undergeared friend... since both of those cases can increase the average stats in the community by a greater amount.

 

Naturally, someone with a singular and insular-based, antisocial viewpoint would never even consider this. And, hence, you have his thinking.

Ah, the ad hominen fallacy, the refuge of those who can't come up with an actual valid argument.

 

I'm not really sure how taking the stance of "stop being so greedy and selfish and be more honest with yourself" is antisocial viewpoint.

Edited January 25, 2012 by ferroz

[Talorya]

The only gears that are made for certain classes are the ones that have the class listed in the item itself. Otherwise it's free for all for anyone that can wear the armor type when it comes to orange custom gears.

 

Mods don't dictate who can wear them, as the marauder could easily swap out the mods right on the spot with his existing ones if he already carries them.

 

Rolling on the same item type as the one your class typically wears I'd think it's fine if they're able to use it right away and it's for them personally and not for an alt/companion.

 

I detest the people that roll "need" for their alts or companions on these gears more than appearance swappers especially when the people in the group can actually use/need them right away.

 

These items are usually just palette swaps of the same gear you normally find anyways, and the stat gain might "seem" to be beneficial, but it's largely insignificant when you actually put them on. Whatever changes it makes to your stats won't be game changing, even if you had won it and put it on you won't deal noticeably more damage/heal more just because of that one piece of orange gear.

 

 

I pass on anything that isn't relevant to my character that I play, I'll need on gear of the same armor type and main stats as my advance class, and I'll greed when the item is of no immediate use to anyone in the group (ie. a class that isn't present).

 

You're better off just doing more runs if that crappy gear is so important to you, stats won't matter much until late/end game when they actually add up to something useful. It's a ~30 gear, you'll swap out the mods by the time you go to/finish the next planet anyways so all that's left is the appearance.

[JediMasterShake]

if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it

 

 

/thread

 

 

 

You know what the funny thing is... this is really TOR issue, not an MMO issue.

 

In wow, people used to LOLOLOL at "hunter lootz" because it was a big joke. Only the biggest idiots and newbs didn't know what gear was designed for their class. It was a 1 in 500 issue, not 1 in 10 as it seems to be in TOR.

 

I hope people realize that this is basically a sociological test and an intelligence test rolled into one.

 

And people who say things like the quote above.... are failing. Miserably.

[Sufran]

Naturally, someone with a singular and insular-based, antisocial viewpoint would never even consider this. And, hence, you have his thinking.

Whilst I concur, I gave up a considerable amount of time ago because there’s simply no way that their short-termist, egotistical conceptualisation of social dynamics will ever become prevalent. The simple fact of the matter is that their attitude cannot become the dominant one due to sheer necessity, if people were Needing ‘because they can’ or for aesthetics rather than quantifiable statistical benefits that improve performance then we degenerate into a Hobbean state due to the lack of any convention-based social contract that mitigates brutal selfishness. Every item would be pounced upon for reasons that, as you rightly identify, impede collective development since there'd be a far slower pace of upgrading thus a far slower rate of overall progression. As progressing up various tiers is a significant part of the game, it would cease to function in a manner that fulfils its intended purpose. Whilst any desire to upgrade may be rooted partly in selfishness (or wholly if you read many theories on the origin of altruism), that does not suddenly make it equal in outcome or justification as every other selfish act. Why? Because quite independent of a selfish act is the quantifiable benefit to the 'overall happiness' in terms of progression and collective ability to access content or achieve (

 

(For the purposes of the above, I don't think that selling on the GTN counts for multiple very obvious reasons; ranging from the lost benefit during the time of sale, the degenerative effect on the community via the Need-for-all, the inability to know who purchases and what improvement that makes, or the ability of anyone to roll on a BoE item thus they possess equal capacity to 'benefit' the whole by selling it to the market.)

 

I would suggest you don't waste your time on them because they're trying to be loud simply out of the desire to troll or because, as I said earlier, such individuals need to be vocal in order to create the fallacious impression that they are a sizeable minority. If they are sufficiently sizeable then our little convention-based society won't metaphorically punch them in the face as frequently for their actions due to worrying about repercussions. Even if they are focused upon selfishness that causes things to degenerate then they still need some level of co-operation as they know they're outnumbered thus need it to 'survive.'In truth, any polls with a large sample always reveal that they are a tiny minority thus we should give them a metaphorical punch.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Sufran

[Xabana]

No, it just increase your stats. It does not benefit the community at all.

 

Even if I did, I can point out that following this line of argument makes someone who rolls need and then puts the item on the GTN a potentially even less selfish individual, likewise for someone who need to give it to an undergeared friend... since both of those cases can increase the average stats in the community by a greater amount.

 

Ah, the ad hominen fallacy, the refuge of those who can't come up with an actual valid argument.

 

I'm not really sure how taking the stance of "stop being so greedy and selfish and be more honest with yourself" is antisocial viewpoint.

 

If I increase my stats, I heal better. That helps everyone in the groups that I am with in the Flashpoints, etc. Everyone benefits.

 

You have not refuted this argument by your statement above. Until you do, you, sir, are a troll. Putting something on the GTN does not reward someone who actually spent time in the raid as the end goal is to benefit the community by rewarding the player for their contributions. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

 

The ad hominem comment makes me think you are a first year law student who is bored off of his tukus looking for an argument. I hope no one gets the misfortune of running a Flashpoint with you.

[ferroz]

If you are rolling on an item for just the 1 mod...when someone else can use the whole item that is pretty f'd up.

Why?

 

The "but that's a bigger upgrade for me" argument is clearly one of greed and selfish entitlement.

 

Even if you've deluded yourself into thinking that "It's an upgrade" ... if the loot item is an upgrade to 2 people, why would it matter who it's a bigger upgrade for?

 

Flashpoints are a group thing, thus you should show some courtesy to the other people with you. What if you needed the new lightsaber that just dropped and some tech user takes it so he can put the enhancement in his boots? I doubt you would be too happy.

I'd be fine with that. Because I'm not deluding myself into thinking that "it's an upgrade" means that I'm somehow entitled to it.

 

If they win, I congratulate them and move on.

 

Pulling **** like that would get you booted from any *decent* group.

crying about someone else winning because "that's a bigger upgrade to me" will get you booted from most decent groups as well.

[Vendril]

I think so. The item is designed to be worn by all of the classes that can equip it.

 

did you actually have some sort of point?

 

No it is not designed as such, despite your rationalizations. If someone is just going to strip out the mods, then what use is it anyway? You "need" an empty orange item?

 

Keep trying to convince yourself selfishness is in the best interests of the game.

[daemian]

I'm quite serious about this: if you're upset by someone in your group rolling need in a way that you think is inappropriate, then you're just being greedy.

 

That's kind of how I feel about it too. Otherwise why have a roll system at all? Just automatically bind every item that drops to the player with the appropriate class and the lowest related stat. I usually pass on something if I really don't need it, but if I do roll need and lose... oh well.

[Xabana]

Whilst I concur, I gave up a considerable amount of time ago because there’s simply no way that their short-termist, egotistical conceptualisation of social dynamics will ever become prevalent. The simple fact of the matter is that their attitude cannot become the dominant one due to sheer necessity, if people were Needing ‘because they can’ or for aesthetics rather than quantifiable statistical benefits that improve performance then we degenerate into a Hobbean state due to the lack of any convention-based social contract that mitigates brutal selfishness. Every item would be pounced upon for reasons that, as you rightly identify, impede collective development since there'd be a far slower pace of upgrading thus a far slower rate of overall progression. As progressing up various tiers is a significant part of the game, it would cease to function in a manner that fulfils its intended purpose.

 

I would suggest you don't waste your time on them because they're trying to be loud simply out of the desire to troll or because, as I said earlier, such individuals need to be vocal in order to create the fallacious impression that they are a sizeable minority. If they are sufficiently sizeable then our little convention-based society won't metaphorically punch them in the face as frequently for their actions due to worrying about repercussions. Even if they are focused upon selfishness that causes things to degenerate then they still need some level of co-operation as they know they're outnumbered thus need it to 'survive.'In truth, any polls with a large sample always reveal that they are a tiny minority thus we should give them a metaphorical punch.

 

Very good points with an optimistic outcome. Thank you. I agree that the outlandish trolling is a form of self-preservation or a defense mechanism. Good points all around. Cheers!

[Lazorous]

Why?

 

The "but that's a bigger upgrade for me" argument is clearly one of greed and selfish entitlement.

 

Even if you've deluded yourself into thinking that "It's an upgrade" ... if the loot item is an upgrade to 2 people, why would it matter who it's a bigger upgrade for?

 

I'd be fine with that. Because I'm not deluding myself into thinking that "it's an upgrade" means that I'm somehow entitled to it.

 

If they win, I congratulate them and move on.

 

crying about someone else winning because "that's a bigger upgrade to me" will get you booted from most decent groups as well.

 

So to be clear, by your standards, it would be fine for me to roll need on everything (regardless of mods or just static stats) simply because I can vendor it and use the credits to buy an upgrade for myself, correct?

[Galbatorrix]

This game force feeds you your class's proper stats from go. People needing on items that aren't their primary stats are obviously not too bright.

[Galbatorrix]

That's kind of how I feel about it too. Otherwise why have a roll system at all? Just automatically bind every item that drops to the player with the appropriate class and the lowest related stat. I usually pass on something if I really don't need it, but if I do roll need and lose... oh well.

 

 

There's a roll system because Companions can use the gear too. If you're running with all STR and Willpower users and a Cunning items drops that is usable by your companion, you should be able to roll on it for such. Though people often use these system to just need on everything regardless.

 

 

And for all of the people that think it's wrong to act "entitled" to the loot DESIGNED for your class... well, I AM entitled to it. I'm running the flashpoint too and I am entitled to any loot DESIGNED for me. You're being completely discourteous and you're also acting entitled thinking you should be able to need on an item that you can't get any use out of.

 

Heck, If an item drops I already have and I know someone's companion can use it, I tell them to need while I pass. I just wish everyone was so courteous.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Ratall]

It should be changed so that you can only wear gear of your armor type. No more heavy armor wearers being able to wear light armor.

 

The interface should change so that you cannot roll need on an item that 1) is not your armor type and 2) does not contain your primary stat (aim, cunning, strength, willpower).

[ferroz]

If I increase my stats, I heal better. That helps everyone in the groups that I am with in the Flashpoints, etc. Everyone benefits.

No, only you and your groups benefit. The idea that because you and your clique are better off means that things are better for everyone is an inherently selfish point of view.

 

If it's an item that you later replace, it's only a temporary gain even for that clique. Take the case where someone takes an item, rips a mod out of it and then keeps that mod longer than you would keep that item. At that point, you raise the long term community stats more by letting that individual take the item and rip the one mod out...

 

Besides that, it clearly doesn't help everyone; a quick counter example: as the gear level of you and your clique increases, the disparity between you and a newly leveled character increases, raising the expectations placed on all characters regardless of gear, making it harder for new characters to get groups. You can see that in action toward the end of an expansion in most MMOs (it happened a lot in both EQ and WoW)

 

 

The logic you're using here is analogous to "robbing banks makes the world a better place because I can give my friends money" ... it really doesn't help the community. The robber just thinks it does because he's trying to see himself as not being selfish.

 

You have not refuted this argument by your statement above. Until you do, you, sir, are a troll. Putting something on the GTN does not reward someone who actually spent time in the raid as the end goal is to benefit the community by rewarding the player for their contributions. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

It benefits the community as a whole more, since it increases the average level of gear by a larger amount.

 

(and like I said, not that increasing that makes you any less selfish)

 

The ad hominem comment makes me think you are a first year law student

Nope... programmer who happens to have a background in logic (you know, since logic and discrete math are a big part of CS), though I think I first learned the term arguing with people on usenet.

 

I hope no one gets the misfortune of running a Flashpoint with you.

Implied ad hominem attacks make your arguments look just as weak as overt ones...

[daemian]

I believe the system is working as intended. If it's that important to people, they should be making the rules clear before it gets to the point of conflict. In this situation, obviously both parties are being greedy, and both believe equally they deserve it more. The one getting upset doesn't like the fact that everyone has an equal chance at getting what they want, rather they want the odds skewed in their favor. Edited January 25, 2012 by daemian

[Calsetes]

It should be changed so that you can only wear gear of your armor type. No more heavy armor wearers being able to wear light armor.

 

The interface should change so that you cannot roll need on an item that 1) is not your armor type and 2) does not contain your primary stat (aim, cunning, strength, willpower).

 

I don't like that, simply because of one big issue:

 

What happens if my entire party says I can need on that Smuggler jacket that's moddable, after they've all already hit Greed? They can't just "pass" now that it's been selected as Greed.

 

Unfortunately, I think this is something that only the community can fix, and it's only the community causing the problem.

[Galbatorrix]

No, only you and your groups benefit. The idea that because you and your clique are better off means that things are better for everyone is an inherently selfish point of view.

 

If it's an item that you later replace, it's only a temporary gain even for that clique. Take the case where someone takes an item, rips a mod out of it and then keeps that mod longer than you would keep that item. At that point, you raise the long term community stats more by letting that individual take the item and rip the one mod out...

 

Besides that, it clearly doesn't help everyone; a quick counter example: as the gear level of you and your clique increases, the disparity between you and a newly leveled character increases, raising the expectations placed on all characters regardless of gear, making it harder for new characters to get groups. You can see that in action toward the end of an expansion in most MMOs (it happened a lot in both EQ and WoW)

 

 

The logic you're using here is analogous to "robbing banks makes the world a better place because I can give my friends money" ... it really doesn't help the community. The robber just thinks it does because he's trying to see himself as not being selfish.

 

It benefits the community as a whole more, since it increases the average level of gear by a larger amount.

 

(and like I said, not that increasing that makes you any less selfish)

 

Nope... programmer who happens to have a background in logic (you know, since logic and discrete math are a big part of CS), though I think I first learned the term arguing with people on usenet.

 

Implied ad hominem attacks make your arguments look just as weak as overt ones...

 

 

 

Wow... I don't even know what to say... you're completely delusional... I mean, wanting an item designed for your class is selfish and entitled. But ninjaing that item so you can use ONE mod is completely fine... wow. Does your lack of decency spill over into your real life or only over the internet?

[Xabana]

The logic you're using here is analogous to "robbing banks makes the world a better place because I can give my friends money" ... it really doesn't help the community. The robber just thinks it does because he's trying to see himself as not being selfish.

 

Ok, that's simply anti-logic. That statement makes no sense at all. That analogy is just plain terrible. There is nothing criminal about rolling Need for an item that you actually do need. Like I said earlier, you are arguing semantics without getting to the heart of the issue.

 

Second, getting good gear in a run helps others out in subsequent runs - people who are different entirely from the people you originally ran with. Stop taking things out of context to make a spurious point.

 

I apologize for what you feel are ad hominem attacks, however.

 

And, to others - careful when responding to ferroz - the mods here gave me a warning because I called him a troll. Apparently it's rude behavior. My bad.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Xabana

[Barracudastr]

...if anyone in that class is with your group.

 

I can't believe I'm posting about item rolls, or about this issue. People worry too much about loot, and I'm a big believer in just enjoying the game.

But poor claims hurt group dynamics, and there's no need for this kind of thing.

 

Today, a Sith Marauder rolled Need to get this

Cademimu Sharpshooter's Jacket

+34 Endurance

+38 Cunning

+18 Critical Rating

 

when I pointed out it was made for an Agent, like me, he said he intended to strip out the mods and trade them.

 

When I noted that the mods are Bound, he insisted that since he could wear it, he could roll. More surprising was that when he brought the issue to /General, a few voices agreed.

 

Most did not, but the others need to know that sort of claim i's a party-breaker. This is clearly an Agent item - a huge upgrade in my case - and my next group will get a little less healing as a result.

 

One of the pleasures of running Flashpoints is the chance to get gear suited to you. If it's better suited to someone else, leave it for them.

 

BUT YOU ONLY GET THESE ISSUES IN LFD LIKE IN WOW!!! Am I right Anti LFD activists!!! Theres no possible way you could have blindly invited someone like that to your group using the social method of /1 spammage!

 

Sorry couldn't resist.

 

It is bs sorry for your loss.