No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[ferroz]

His is the only position which allows for forcing it on other people by actually hitting the need button.

That doesn't force anything on anyone.

 

You are still free to decide whether to loot based on your loot priorities; you just don't get to force your priorities on other people.

 

My method, no one gets to say "I deserve it more than you"

 

Your method, people get to say "I deserve it more than you"

 

My way is about equality and fairness.

 

You way is about entitlement and control of others.

 

No matter what you agree on, if a person feels entitled to roll, there's nothing I can do to stop them. My only recourse is to not play with them.

Or talk to them in advance and let them know that you have additional, arbitrary loot rules that you expect them to follow.

[Creed_Buhallin]

If that was true they didnt had the greed option in the first place.

Greed was originally created to distinguish something that was just going to be sold, rather than used. This is a separation I think most people still consider valid.

 

But games have evolved, and the NBG system has evolved with it. In some cases, the marginal utility someone gets from an item is clearly less - this is why disenchanting/disassembling is considered even lower priority than Greed. But SWTOR is much more complex in the potential uses for an item, and some people just haven't caught up yet.

 

As I said a few pages back, I solo with my Sniper. My companion's armor is absolutely critical for me - at least as critical as any Mercenary who also happens to wear heavy armor, but shouldn't be taking hits. Who gets more utility from that?

 

The problem some of us have with this is that people want to gauge that utility, but can't be bothered to do it for real. Who gets better use from a piece of "obviously" BH armor - a tanking Powertech, a DPS Powertech, a healing Mercenary, or a DPS mercenary? It's a complicated question that nobody wants to deal with in the middle of a run, so it gets bundled to "Anyone who can use it".

 

But people inherently want to improve their chances of getting pieces they want, and the best way to do that is to restrict the pool of people rolling for them, especially if you can find easy disqualifiers. So my Agent can't roll on that for Kaliyo, even though I could potentially see much more benefit than any of the people it's "meant for".

[ispanolfw]

And the entire point of this thread is an attempt to modify the existing system to make it more equitable for the 'player toon' over the companion/Alt. Plan and simple.

 

Yes, the current system allows for the problem to exist - this is an attempt to address that.

 

And that's their opinion. They feel the player alone is more important than the player's companions, or the player's desire for looks, or whatnot. So they're allowed to go ahead and say what THEY feel is right and should be prioritized is more important than say, someone who prioritizes looks over stats?

 

And by problem I hope you mean what you consider a problem, not what is factually a problem. Since to be factually a problem it has to be pretty much 100% ie someone getting the top roll and still not getting the item due to a bug.

[Maccaroth]

Because based on the number of posts I've seen about this issue, they clearly are not a small fraction of the player base.

Take into consideration that anyone from any realm can post in these forums and forum discussions attract people who have different mindsets, so it's hard to presume what fraction of the player base which people are when they post here.

 

On my server though I have seen that all people I've played with - and I never discussed group loot rules with them - seem to share opinion that need is for player's character. For companions you can use need IF you ask before and no one else need it. From what I've seen the people are reasonable and make no problem of other people taking need if they don't need item for their character.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Maccaroth

[ferroz]

It's really just semantics. If you feel everyone can/should roll on everything then you inherently feel that YOU are entitled to everything which is the opposite of what other people are saying.

False. I don't feel that I'm entitled to anything.

 

I feel that everyone is equal, and everyone deserves an equal chance to get the loot that they want. It doesn't matter why they want it. Maybe they like the stats. Maybe they list te stats for there companion. Maybe they want some of the mods out of it. Maybe they want the item itself for it's looks. The why doesn't matter; they've earned the chance to roll, nothing more.

 

So, yes, his position takes entitlement issues to the extreme.

No, it's the opposite of an entitlement issue. I feel that noone is entitled to gear.

 

I know that's hard to understand. The first step is taking a long hard look at your own entitlement issue (I deserve loot X because of Y reason) and admit it, even if just to yourself.

 

As long as you hold on to that, you're going to have loot drama.

Edited January 27, 2012 by ferroz

[Galbatorrix]

Except the game is designed this way. We aren't making the opinion that it is, it just IS designed that way. If we DIDN'T have entitlement to roll, we would not be allowed to. 100% absolute. Not my opinion, nor his. That's just how the game works. I personally do NOT roll on everything, and i've stated as such several times, so has he.

 

 

 

Yeah, but you'll roll on companion gear over players in your group, and that's bad enough.

 

 

Bioware needs to just take away companion gear and make their stats scale with your own. They could add more "social gear" to be used for your companion's appearance and just have their stats scale. That would take away most of people's justifications to grief others right there.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Nightfox_]

People are not equal. That's just what they teach you in Sunday school, sorry. Wake up and look around.

[Kindara]

Except the game is designed this way. We aren't making the opinion that it is, it just IS designed that way. If we DIDN'T have entitlement to roll, we would not be allowed to. 100% absolute. Not my opinion, nor his. That's just how the game works. I personally do NOT roll on everything, and i've stated as such several times, so has he.

 

Just because the game allows you to be a social jerk to others with rolling how ever you want with no thought to people around you doesn't make it right. Its like saying its ok to go out there and drive your car while texting and possibly killing yourself or others. We all know that it is not ok to text and drive.

 

For me I'll be polite ask that people simply roll need for what they not their companions can use. If no one else is rolling need and they simply take the 10 seconds it takes to ask "can i need for companion" I really wont mind.

 

Personally my belief is if your doing Flash Points which are designed for groups of players NOT companions the gear is directly for the players playable toon not their little wandering side kick. To take gear away from someone else for your sidekick is kind of a jerk move. Go back and solo it yourself if your companion is that important because in the end thats all you'll have at end game when large amounts of people don't want to group with you. You can be pretty sure if 1 member of a guild bans you the rest of their guild does too.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kindara

[chton]

And the entire point of this thread is an attempt to modify the existing system to make it more equitable for the 'player toon' over the companion/Alt. Plan and simple.

 

Yes, the current system allows for the problem to exist - this is an attempt to address that.

 

What problem are you speaking of? Oh you have a problem with it, that doesn't make it a problem for the rest of us.

[Edryk]

Except the game is designed this way. We aren't making the opinion that it is, it just IS designed that way. If we DIDN'T have entitlement to roll, we would not be allowed to. 100% absolute. Not my opinion, nor his. That's just how the game works. I personally do NOT roll on everything, and i've stated as such several times, so has he.

 

I didn't say you rolled on everything. I said you have the ability to force your idea of what is fair on other people - because of game mechanics. And that you (or others that share your view) don't see a need bringing up the discussion beforehand because 'the game lets me do it'.

 

The question is not whether you have entitlement to roll(clearly you do), but should you have entitlement to roll. I think that was the whole point of this thread. Was it not?

 

One side: yep I was there, I should.

Other side: player characters should get priority over companions/looks/etc

 

First side actually has the ability to enforce their ideas. Second side's only recourse is to not play with them/blacklist. Yet first side complains about other peoples' opinion and action that allows them to play with others of the same opinion - and calls it 'forcing their opinion on others' and 'greedy'. Seems hypocritical to me.

[Vydor_HC]

Just because the game allows you to be a social jerk to others with rolling how ever you want with no thought to people around you doesn't make it right. Its like saying its ok to go out there and drive your car while texting and possibly killing yourself or others. We all know that it is not ok to text and drive.

 

For me I'll be polite ask that people simply roll need for what they not their companions can use. If no one else is rolling need and they simply take the 10 seconds it takes to ask "can i need for companion" I really wont mind.

 

Personally my belief is if your doing Flash Points which are designed for groups of players NOT companions the gear is directly for the players playable toon not their little wandering side kick. To take gear away from someone else for your sidekick is kind of a jerk move. Go back and solo it yourself if your companion is that important because in the end thats all you'll have at end game when large amounts of people don't want to group with you. You can be pretty sure if 1 member of a guild bans you the rest of their guild does too.

 

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with discussing the looting rules before you get to loot. That's the only reasonable thing to do, no matter which opinion you hold.

[Creed_Buhallin]

Bioware needs to just take away companion gear and make their stats scale with your own. They could add more "social gear" to be used for your companion's appearance and just have their stats scale. That would take away most of people's justifications to grief others right there.

Why should they dumb it down just because you can't come to terms with the fact that I have extra slots to put things in?

 

Let's try something very direct: Accepting for the moment that the gear my companions use have an impact on my ability to complete content, why does that not qualify for something I need? What is the difference between the armor on my tank (which keeps mobs occupied while I blast them, giving me time to kill them) and a DPS increase on my blaster (which lets me reduce the time she needs to keep them occupied)?

[Razot]

if I am able to press NEED, then i'm allowed to do it

 

 

/thread

 

WoW kiddie ftl..

[Eldren]

Guys and gals. Stop arguing with the select few who think they are entitled to roll on all gear. They represent a very small fraction of the player base. If you see people acting like them in the game, do what a majority of us would do.

 

Kick them out of the group.

 

They are arguing here for the sake of arguing. You will never get through to them.

 

Much like no one will get through to you?

 

You want to call out statistics with terms like "majority" and "small fraction"? Let's see your math. Let's see your references. Otherwise, avoid terms like this if you don't want people more inclined to use logic in an argument to tear your perspective apart (often with great glee).

 

I know I personally don't think I'm "entitled" to roll on "all" gear. I'm not going to roll on a class-specific piece unless it's an orange piece with a mod that would upgrade one I'm using. Already I'm not rolling on "all" gear as you put it. I will, if I see a reason (definable by me and no one else), roll Need on an upgrade piece for a companion (if they can equip it) or myself (if I can equip it or something it has, such as a mod). I don't require your approval, or anyone else's who thinks like you. I don't begrudge you your right to think that way, I merely point out that it doesn't obligate me to any course of action.

[Calsetes]

People are not equal. That's just what they teach you in Sunday school, sorry. Wake up and look around.

 

That is literally the exact opposite of what they teach. Or taught, since it's been a looooong time since I went (almost 14 years, now?) It's that whole "do unto other as you'd want done unto you" thing.

[ispanolfw]

Yeah, but you'll roll on companion gear over players in your group, and that's bad enough.

 

 

Bioware needs to just take away companion gear and make their stats scale with your own. Then could add more "social gear" to be used for your companions looks and just have their stats scale. That would take away people's justifications to grief others right there.

 

I never said I would. I said it's allowed by the game rules, not that I did it. The system is designed to give everyone who participated a chance to roll. That's not my opinion, that's how it is. You and others wish to change it, and that's fine, that's your opinion and choice. But it carries with it the consequence of you wanting to force your view on others, regardless of what you seem to think you're saying. I'm forcing nothing on anyone. The game is designed that way, I follow by those rules. If someone in group speaks up about wanting more restrictive rules, and we all agree to it, that's a completely different story. But with NO speaking up, the rules are as they are.

[Setanian]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with discussing the looting rules before you get to loot. That's the only reasonable thing to do, no matter which opinion you hold.

 

Here again you are using supposition with no known correlating data to back it up. 'Everyone' how did you get to that conclusion?

[ferroz]

Just because the game allows you to be a social jerk

Just because someoen has different priorities, that doesn't make them a jerk, social or otherwise.

 

For me I'll be polite ask that people simply roll need for what they not their companions can use.

Why do you think it's ok to enforce your priorities on other people? I'd really like to know.

[VanorDM]

Take into consideration that anyone from any realm can post in these forums and forum discussions attract people who have different mindsets, so it's hard to presume what fraction of the player base which people are when they post here.

 

Not sure what realm has to do with anything...

 

The forms is normally a microcosmic of the player base as a whole, in the same way a poll of 1000 people can be used to get an idea of what the country as a whole things.

 

The point I took exception so, is this idea that "only a small fraction of the player base feels X way." When in fact if you look at all the posts on this subject, and there have been thousands of them since release...

 

It's clear that people who feel need for companions, are not simply a small fraction of the player base as a whole. They may or may not be the majority now, but they are also not a meaningless fraction either.

 

I'd also say that as time goes on, more and more you'll see people coming to feel differently about it, once they start to realize that this isn't WoW, and the rules that worked there don't always work here.

[Sousukesama]

I'm not reading 101 pages, but if it hasn't already been said.

 

The OP had the marauder roll on cunning gear.. most likely the real reason is his companion could use it. He isn't going to use it himself just for an AC or Endurance upgrade when his main stat STR will be lost.

 

As for locking all the loot down so only the class that can use it can get it through need - the same would apply when someone that has that stat as their main stat, but they don't need it. They will purposefully click need when someone else in the group could probably use it as an upgrade for a companion, but they're locked out of the need button.

 

Ultimately, you'll never be free of jerks in groups. Limiting the need button on loot just causes the opposite side of loot whores. Just have to move on and play the game. Don't group with them again, and spread the word about them if you want through /general

 

I've played quite a few MMOs and there will always be greedy people.

[ispanolfw]

I didn't say you rolled on everything. I said you have the ability to force your idea of what is fair on other people - because of game mechanics. And that you (or others that share your view) don't see a need bringing up the discussion beforehand because 'the game lets me do it'.

 

The question is not whether you have entitlement to roll(clearly you do), but should you have entitlement to roll. I think that was the whole point of this thread. Was it not?

 

One side: yep I was there, I should.

Other side: player characters should get priority over companions/looks/etc

 

First side actually has the ability to enforce their ideas. Second side's only recourse is to not play with them/blacklist. Yet first side complains about other peoples' opinion and action that allows them to play with others of the same opinion - and calls it 'forcing their opinion on others' and 'greedy'. Seems hypocritical to me.

 

I'm not enforcing anything. It's already that way, if Bioware didn't intend it to be that way, it would not be that way. And if it was a mistake on their end, they will change it. I don't force others to pass on gear because it's a bigger upgrade to someone else. I just expect that in the ABSENCE of an agreement among players, that the rules of the game will allow what they will, and I will never complain of such.

 

And it's not hypocritical. The rules are what they are, I had no say in them being made, and neither likely did you. As people have stated before, this is about as close to "fair" as you can get. And why we say the "social" or "moral" or whatever side is forcing? Because they want to force THEIR views on everyone else. I do not. My views are actually different than the system in place, but I understand they are that way for a reason.

Edited January 27, 2012 by ispanolfw

[ferroz]

WoW kiddie ftl..

someone should really keep track, and see how many times that guy has gotten a bite...

 

it's just sad.

Edited January 27, 2012 by ferroz

[Vydor_HC]

Here again you are using supposition with no known correlating data to back it up. 'Everyone' how did you get to that conclusion?

 

Because, I've yet to really see a post that defends ninjaing or one that says "no matter what the group decides I'm going to do the opposite".

[Setanian]

Yeah, but you'll roll on companion gear over players in your group, and that's bad enough.

 

 

Bioware needs to just take away companion gear and make their stats scale with your own. They could add more "social gear" to be used for your companion's appearance and just have their stats scale. That would take away most of people's justifications to grief others right there.

 

The problem here is you are creating the grief through your own greed. You are claiming that your PC has more entitlement/right to loot that my companion.

 

Now, they are both just 'data' on the internet wires. They are not real people. So they both are equal. In your mind, you are assigning more value to your pc data than a companion.

 

BW created this companion system. It is unlike any other MMO, so there-fore, agreed 'norms' do not apply. The fact is, the norm was an accepted norm by those accepting it because, when the rule is applied, the chances of gaining loot are raised.

[ferroz]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with discussing the looting rules before you get to loot. That's the only reasonable thing to do, no matter which opinion you hold.

Sadly there are a lot of folks who think it's ok to not discuss them, and then hold people accountable to those unwritten, unspoken rules.