No, You May Not Roll on Items for Another Class and Strip Out the Mods

[AsheraII]

The old system from other games, certainly took into account alts, off-specs, and for some games, cosmetic appearance. The established system does take into account Needing for an item that isn't an immediate upgrade to your class as you were performing when the item dropped. Need is for upgrades to the character, class and role you were playing at the time the item dropped. exceptions to this need to be mentioned ahead of time. There is no reason to make a special adjustment to that for orange items.

 

Also, orange gear is not all about customization. To some it is. To some it is just stats like any other piece of gear. To some it is both. The easiest thing to do is treat it as one big piece until BW makes it drop in separate pieces so people can roll on those pieces separately. Or they might make it so the winner can strip the mods and trade them to a more deserving member of the group. Until then it's one piece.

Or, the alternative: make such items drop without a single mod at all. Can't say I would find that a bad thing really. By all means, they could even bring back the original lootbags idea and use it for Flashpoints this time, I'd be totally in favour of that. No more playercontrolled loot distribution, just give everyone a bag with *maybe* a nice item in it.

[Galbatorrix]

It's laughable that people think that in this era of the internet they can "teach" others proper etiquette in online games. The utter naivete, or just plain stupidity, of that belief is actually hilarious.

 

It's like the naivete, or plain stupidity, of people that believe that some kind of social pressure can be better brought to bear with no cross-server LFG tool.

 

If the game continues to allow players to roll on blue and above items that their player character can't use in FPs, then this will continue to be a major point of controversy. Well, for those very few that are managing to see the group oriented content that is.

 

 

Luckily, even with all of the people in this thread openly admitting to loot whoring, I've never experienced this in game. Well, I once had an IA roll need on inquisitor gloves when I was playing my Assassin, but since I already had them, I simply greeded anyway. Otherwise, I've only seen people needing on what they can use. It's good to know that at least some of the players on my two servers have some common decency.

[Matte_Black]

If it's fair to roll on items that your class can't use, then it's fair for me to call that guy out on it and blast him in gen chat. FAIR is FAIR. If you want to loot whore and roll on items that were meant for another class in the group, don't complain when you get called out on it.

 

I'd say as long you had the discussion about what is acceptable looting beforehand, fire away if they break that agreement. If you are gonna grief someone over breaking an unstated rule, you are also outing yourself as a short-sighted jerk.

 

If you think "need" should be defined a certain way, campaign for BioWare to agree to your definition or set the ground rules with your group but, blasting people because they have a different take on an unsettled debate is fairly ineffective.

 

There is no consensus on exactly where the line should be drawn. Until BioWare declares what "need" means, it's not any player's place to enforceanything beyond what they agree to between eachother.

[Kashaan]

I have one question, do you not do bad things because of the consequences or because they are bad?

 

Would murder be alright if there were no real consequences for doing it?

 

Is it ok to harass someone on the internet because there are no real consequences for doing it?

 

Or is it just ok to hurt someone if you consider the hurtfulness of your action inconsequential?

 

 

I don't think he's advocating being a jerk. He's simply saying that there are no consequences, so the people who are jerks just go ahead and do it.

 

 

Everyone has a different idea of what is acceptable for looting. Because of this, saying, "I shouldn't have to say loot rules because everyone already knows the rules" is a very incorrect statement. And it's a horrible assumption.

 

If you wanna save yourself problems, then establish loot rules. Jerks are going to exist no matter what... you can choose whether you're prepared for them or whether you'll be blind-sided by them.

[JohraTon]

If someone needs on something not for their class without saying something first then I'd be annoyed tbh. Especially if a warrior was needing on something for an agent against an agent player who actually did need it.

 

I do quite a few FP's with guildies and the odd randomer, but if they did that I'd just not invite them again.

 

So the question is would you rather roll need on an item to be a greedy so and so or run regular FP's and get stuff for your class.

 

We had a random merc on one of our runs need on some warrior columi bracers. Next time he asked if we were running we told him straight away why he wasn't getting an invite. Greed all you like but the need button is there for those who actually need stuff, not just to ninja loot.

[SySnootles]

My own experiences on this lead me to a simple behavior i always stick to, if im screwed over by any idiots DPS or Tank rolling on gear thats an upgrade for my sorcerer, i just leave the group mid flashpoint without even saying a word...

 

If they are entitled to act like *****, then this healer will be an even bigger dick about it. Everyone goes on my **** list of do not group with ever again.

[Tokeee]

I RP a sith, it's against my nature to give you anything.

[ferroz]

If it's fair to roll on items that your class can't use, then it's fair for me to call that guy out on it and blast him in gen chat. FAIR is FAIR.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from your presence. The fact that the first situation is fair does not in any way imply that the 2nd situation is fair.

 

In the first situation he has done nothing wrong; you're just angry because you're selfish and feel entitled to the loot that he rightfully won. There's nothing unfair about the situation.

 

In the latter you're making a character assassination attempt based on spreading lies about his actions; there's plenty that's unfair about that situation.

 

 

 

Of course... if you were to take 60 seconds and talk about your arbitrary loot rules at the beginning of the party, and come to an agreement on how it should be handled... you might actually have a leg to stand on.

[ferroz]

Luckily, even with all of the people in this thread openly admitting to loot whoring,

I don't think anyone except that one guy (the guy who keeps getting quoted) has admitted to loot whoring. Who are the other people?

[DarthSublimitas]

(Now Edited to address responses!)

 

I can't believe I'm posting about item rolls, usually not a big concern for me. But poor claims hurt group dynamics, and there's no need for this kind of thing.

 

Today, a Sith Marauder rolled Need to get this

Cademimu Sharpshooter's Jacket

+34 Endurance

+38 Cunning

+18 Critical Rating

 

when I pointed out it was made for an Agent, like me, he said he intended to strip out the mods and trade them.

 

When I noted that the mods are Bound, he insisted that since he could wear it, he could roll. More surprising was that when he brought the issue to /General, a few voices agreed.

 

Most did not, but the others need to know that sort of claim is a party-breaker. This is clearly an Agent item - a huge upgrade in my case - and my next group will get a little less healing as a result.

 

One of the pleasures of running Flashpoints is the chance to get gear suited to you. If it's better suited to someone else, leave it for them.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Responses to the Peanut Gallery

 

 

That approach hurts your whole team, including you.

If I think that way, too, each FP run will improve our stats only half as often. I'll end up with your Marauder item and you with the Agent jacket as often as the other way, and we'll be no stronger for it.

If the rest of the team responds that way, your odds of bettering your abilities drop to a quarter. Grabbing 'because I can' is a losing standard.

 

 

It's definitely best to run with friends. Like a lot of players, I find I need to reach out further for some missions, and that usually turns out well, in part because our community expects players to be considerate of their teammates.

 

 

 

 

I'll won't mince words: it's not your fault when someone acts like a jerk, even if you didn't give them guidelines ahead of time.

 

Clarifying loot rules is a fine practice (on p. 71, Caille recommends a 'loot macro'). But not doing so doesn't make poor behavior your fault. And a loot-jerk won't be banned or punished by Bioware.

 

The kind of person who would take such a thing (really: a Cunning item, for a Marauder?) would need such detailed loot rules (Can you roll on item that increases secondary but not primary stats? Vice-versa? An item you already have but with mods you want?) that you'll never address them all. If you find discussing loot rules works for you, great, but don't ignore the value of community expectations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My hope? A class-based rolling system would be nice (and, if an option, hugely popular), but introducing it takes more developer time than the ability to trade a BoP item within a team for a limited period. That option that won't deter the defiantly selfish but would help in many other cases.

 

Until then, here's to a community that follows Wheaton's Law. Interpretations will differ, but it surely has something to do with respecting others, beyond 'you look after your interests and I'll look after mine.'

 

 

SWTOR is just a game, but I believe in the social value of gaming, and if you play in such a way that people were glad to have spent time with you, you're doing something right... whatever you did or did not discuss in advance.

 

OP, no sense on QQ'ing here. This game is so screwed up, anyone can roll NEED on anything since we can roll on our companions. So, and I think we all have to deal with this, everything is basically up for grabs until the lazy devs decide to get their acts together and fix this, which, sadly, I don't think they will as they don't care...

[ferroz]

OP, no sense on QQ'ing here. This game is so screwed up, anyone can roll NEED on anything since we can roll on our companions. So, and I think we all have to deal with this, everything is basically up for grabs until the lazy devs decide to get their acts together and fix this, which, sadly, I don't think they will as they don't care...

I'm, pretty sure that laziness has nothing to do with it. Based on what I've read, it looks like it's working as designed, and they intended people to need on stuff for companions.

[sjmc]

Orange gear can be used until level 50 (and possibly into the end-game if they start allowing you to put end-game mods in).

 

The mods in orange gear are likely going to be useful until later this afternoon or tomorrow morning. They are also easy enough to get elsewhere.

 

Therefore, orange gear should be considered for its appearance (and armor type - tanks shouldn't be wearing light armor, even if they can) over the mods that it includes.

 

anyone can roll NEED on anything since we can roll on our companions.

Only if it is an upgrade. You shouldn't roll need on something that are not going to use. If you never bring a companion out to fight, it doesn't really need upgrades. Edited January 27, 2012 by sjmc

[Backbones]

I'm, pretty sure that laziness has nothing to do with it. Based on what I've read, it looks like it's working as designed, and they intended people to need on stuff for companions.

 

Then their design is awful, honestly.

 

It should probably look more like this:

 

Need | Companion | Greed

 

With the 'need' box being limited to equipment that is of your highest equippable gear (so Heavy only for Guardians and Troopers, Medium only for Smugglers and Sentinels, etc, and only weapons that the class uses) that have some showing of the class' primary stat (no needing on Cunning for Troopers).

 

Need gets primacy, then it goes to Companion rolls (which can be unhindered, I guess, but doesn't have to be), and then Greed at the end.

 

Therefore, orange gear should be considered for its appearance (and armor type - tanks shouldn't be wearing light armor, even if they can) over the mods that it includes.

 

Rolling on a piece of orange gear with the wrong mods is a lot like rolling 'need' on three blue items that you can't equip. It's a dick move. Build your group so that you won't be snagging an upgrade out from beneath someone who needs it if you absolutely must have an orange that doesn't drop geared for your class

Edited January 27, 2012 by Backbones

[ChicksDigHarleys]

I'm, pretty sure that laziness has nothing to do with it. Based on what I've read, it looks like it's working as designed, and they intended people to need on stuff for companions.

 

I'd prefer to think they were lazy instead of stupid. Did none of these people ever play a loot based MMO before? Multiply that drama by about 5 when you add needing for companions and stripping mods out of gear just for looks, when someone else in the group could use it AS IS for a huge upgrade.

[ferroz]

Orange gear can be used until level 50 (and possibly into the end-game if they start allowing you to put end-game mods in).

 

The mods in orange gear are likely going to be useful until later this afternoon or tomorrow morning. They are also easy enough to get elsewhere.

 

Therefore, orange gear should be considered for its appearance (and armor type - tanks shouldn't be wearing light armor, even if they can) over the mods that it includes.

Shadow (and assassin ) tanks wear light armor. I'm just saying.

 

Other than that, I agree completely. Its more than a little absurd to discount needing for appearance, even if you agree that NBG looting is actually a better system.

[Galbatorrix]

I'd say as long you had the discussion about what is acceptable looting beforehand, fire away if they break that agreement. If you are gonna grief someone over breaking an unstated rule, you are also outing yourself as a short-sighted jerk.

 

If you think "need" should be defined a certain way, campaign for BioWare to agree to your definition or set the ground rules with your group but, blasting people because they have a different take on an unsettled debate is fairly ineffective.

 

There is no consensus on exactly where the line should be drawn. Until BioWare declares what "need" means, it's not any player's place to enforceanything beyond what they agree to between eachother.

 

 

And if they don't want to be blasted, they could have had a discussion before hand to insure everyone in the group was ok with their loot whoring. We can do this circular logic thing all day if you want.

 

The fact is, Bioware force feeds you proper stat priority in every quest that you complete and a lot of times, gear is also named appropriately so players know which class should get the highest priority as well. We're not trying to force our own "personal" rules on others here. We just use some basic common sense and language comprehension to know who the loot was intended for. Some of us realize that the Operative jacket should go to the IA in the group. It's only people with entitlement issues who think otherwise. People who believe all loot should be theirs regardless of who could best use it. This way of thinking is very self centered and inconsiderate to everyone else in the group who is also putting in their time to complete the FP.

[LogicalPremise]

I have problems when I see a Sith Mara (medium armor) below level 20 whose only companion is Vette (+cunning, medium armor) rolling need on an orange Heavy Armor with +aim and +endurance mods when I am a BH (who uses +aim heavy armor).

 

Sith Warriors don't get a companion who can use +aim until PIERCE.

 

This Sith says he has the right to roll need on anything he likes. This is in abeyance of him

 

1) not being able to equip it

2) deriving almost zero utility from the mods on the item (except the +end enhancement)

3) not being able to use it on any companions he has or is going to have in the short term

4) the armor clearly being meant for a BH due to armor class and stats.

 

I can sum up the argument by saying that if someone supports this Sith Mara needing for this piece because he has an equal right to loot, then their argument is simply logically inconsistent.

 

Orange gear that one plans to wear for ones self, if it's matching in armor class, is one of those things that's a grey area. Personally, if we can both wear it, and the other person really likes it, I certainly won't get upset if that person needs on it. But what usually ends up happening is people need on something clearly meant for another class, then later in the run loot drops for their class they also need on, and someone gets shafted.

 

The answer is not "just run it again". The answer is put a bit of forethought into your need rolls.

 

The Mara I talk about above had his name blasted across Krath for three days. This happened over a week ago, yesterday he was looking for group and two different people on the fleet shouted him out as a d-bag ninja looter.

 

There are consequences to actions if they are indefensible. That being said... rolling on medium orange armor that you can actually use is hardly indefensible.

[sjmc]

Shadow (and assassin ) tanks wear light armor. I'm just saying.

I thought about that after I hit Post, but I didn't know if there were light armor tanks. It must hurt when a hit does get through.

[ferroz]

Then their design is awful, honestly.

I don't agree.

 

It should probably look more like this:

 

Need | Companion | Greed

Personally, I prefer

Roll | Pass

 

and if you want to have a more complicated loot system, it's clearly up to the players to deal with it.

 

 

Rolling on a piece of orange gear with the wrong mods is a lot like rolling 'need' on three blue items that you can't equip.

Not really. It's like rolling on a single blue piece that's an upgrade to one stat but a down grade to 3 other stats, but that one stat is worth so much to you that it's worth trading in for itself.

 

I'm going to be wearing orange gear at the end game; I don't care if that chest piece is purple and has purple mods I can't take out of it, I'm not wearing it. Can you say the same for the mods that you're claiming are the end all be all of loot?

[DecimaPoiuytr]

Well I've spent the whole game killing and robbing people for credits to get dark side points so I might as well steal your items and strip the mods!

 

~Dark Side~~

[Racheakt]

For the record, I have the OP listed item on my Maruder, It just looks cool. But I was in a group without any other Med. armor wearers and asked before i rolled need.

 

If you want it for looks, don't be a jerk -- wait for everyone to roll greed, ask of you can need for looks.

[sjmc]

But what usually ends up happening is people need on something clearly meant for another class, then later in the run loot drops for their class they also need on, and someone gets shafted.

I think that if you need for a companion, then you have used up "your turn" and shouldn't need on anything until everyone else has gotten some loot.

 

Needing for a companion doesn't mean that you should get twice the loot as everyone else.

[Galbatorrix]

Orange gear can be used until level 50 (and possibly into the end-game if they start allowing you to put end-game mods in).

 

The mods in orange gear are likely going to be useful until later this afternoon or tomorrow morning. They are also easy enough to get elsewhere.

 

Therefore, orange gear should be considered for its appearance (and armor type - tanks shouldn't be wearing light armor, even if they can) over the mods that it includes.

 

Only if it is an upgrade. You shouldn't roll need on something that are not going to use. If you never bring a companion out to fight, it doesn't really need upgrades.

 

 

 

So, on one hand, it's ok to roll need on an orange item even if it's NOT an upgrade, yet you also say that you should only roll on gear if it's an upgrade.......?

 

If you roll need on orange items for appearance, you have NO right getting upset about people rolling need on companions at all. Companions will at least help that person progress. Needing for appearance does not help you're progression at all.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[ferroz]

And if they don't want to be blasted, they could have had a discussion before hand to insure everyone in the group was ok with their loot whoring.

If you didn't think that they should be able to loot the way that bioware designed the loot system to work, you should have had a discussion before hand to insure that everyone in the group was ok with your asinine definition of loot whoring.

 

We can do this circular logic thing all day if you want.

Ironic, since you're the one using circular logic.

 

We're not trying to force our own "personal" rules on others here.

Yes... you are. you're forcing your own personal rules on how loot should be distributed that don't agree with the design of the game.

 

 

It's only people with entitlement issues who think otherwise.

No, people who are in favor of open loot to everyone who was present at the kill aren't the ones with entitlement issues. It's the ones that think that they somehow deserve the gear more than someone else for some arbitrary reason (say, because they like the stats of it and think they're a good upgrade)

 

That's entitlement. The stance that that everyone is equally deserving of all loot is the opposite of entitlement. This way of thinking is opposite of centered and inconsiderate to everyone else in the group who is also putting in their time to complete the FP.

Edited January 27, 2012 by ferroz

[Backbones]

Not really. It's like rolling on a single blue piece that's an upgrade to one stat but a down grade to 3 other stats, but that one stat is worth so much to you that it's worth trading in for itself.

 

I'm going to be wearing orange gear at the end game; I don't care if that chest piece is purple and has purple mods I can't take out of it, I'm not wearing it. Can you say the same for the mods that you're claiming are the end all be all of loot?

"I like how it looks" is not a stat that people should be denying their groupmates progression over. I disagree so strongly with the sentiment that I can't even begin to address individual complaints beneath it.

 

If you really must have a piece of orange gear, just grow up, take the not-a-huge-jerk option, inform everyone beforehand that you're going to snag gear from people even if it's useless to you (and, again, I can't acknowledge "I want to play dress-up!" to be a legitimate reason to deny someone an upgrade), and ideally, don't build groups where people legitimately need the stuff you want to gank.

 

That's entitlement. The stance that that everyone is equally deserving of all loot is the opposite of entitlement. This way of thinking is opposite of centered and inconsiderate to everyone else in the group who is also putting in their time to complete the FP.

 

Contrarily, your opinion comes across not as "Everyone is equally deserving" because that's moronic and contrary to the way progress works; your opinion is "I am entitled to all of the loot" and it's ... contrary to the way progress works.

 

you're saying, "I need the opportunity to take everything from this FP and leave everyone behind." The other stance is "Everyone should just take what they can use, that way everyone can come out ahead."

Edited January 27, 2012 by Backbones