Operative Healing - What are we doing here?

[VectorKeth]

Mercenaries are clearly set up as single-target healers, and I've heard they're the best single-target healers in the game. Sorcerers are the best group healers in the game. So what are Operatives for? It's not longevity, because our regen isn't any better than a Sorcerer's. I can't imagine stealth healers being all that useful in an Operation, and our CC isn't any more impressive than other classes. So what are we doing in a raid group? What's the justification?

[Marcato]

What's the justification?

 

There isn't any, that I can see. "Spot healing" and chasing damage with single-target heals like a merc/commando seems to be the role I fall into. Operative lacks direction. We're not as HoT focused as we probably should be since we neither have the amount of HoTs or the power behind them to support that kind of play.

 

That said our single-target isn't terrible it just lacks the synergy merc/commandos get from their talents. I have better reaction times than most healers I encounter so for now that gets me into raids. Would love to see the class looked at again in the near future.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Marcato

[VectorKeth]

Hmm. Not encouraging news. I'm level 48, be a shame for all that work to go to waste.

[Kurugi]

You're not going to be turned down from groups. I've been playing MMOs for 8 years and have been an officer and raid leader in a lot of progressive raiding guilds in different MMOs and I can't recall any moment in any MMO I've played where someone was turned down from doing progressive content simply because of the class they play, at least in organized play.

 

People overexaggerate that they're not going to get to do anything simply because their class isn't mathematically as good at something as another class that can fill the same role. "My class isn't as good as this class so why would anyone bring me?" is something I hear quite often. The fact is most groups who want a healer will take whatever healer they can get, and the ones that turn you down because of the class you play are probably stuck-up, ignorant groups you wouldn't want to be in in the first place.

 

"Bring the player, not the class" is a phrase I like to go by. I'd much rather bring someone playing the worst healing class who know what he's doing than someone playing the best healing class who hasn't got a clue.

 

And let's say you were to play a sorc instead. You could still get turned down from a group simply because the leader has had a couple really bad experiences with bad sorc healers and decided he doesn't want to deal with the class at all. Most of the time when you're turned down it's because of stupidity, not because it's justified (talking about pugs mostly here. In any guild worth being in player skill trumps what class you play by a long shot).

Edited January 21, 2012 by Kurugi

[VectorKeth]

I'm a guild leader, so I'm most concerned about making the best contribution to the raid that I can. Right now, is seems like continuing as an Operative is not the way to do that.

[Aribethx]

I'm a guild leader, so I'm most concerned about making the best contribution to the raid that I can. Right now, is seems like continuing as an Operative is not the way to do that.

 

Don't delude yourself into thinking that just because people cry on these forums. Sometimes these forums do more damage than good. Well actually... most of the time.

[Xenthum]

I'm a guild leader, so I'm most concerned about making the best contribution to the raid that I can. Right now, is seems like continuing as an Operative is not the way to do that.

 

Correct. There is nothing that an Operative of any spec brings that someone else does not do better. Previously it was burst, but now that's being gutted.

[Kurugi]

I'm a guild leader, so I'm most concerned about making the best contribution to the raid that I can. Right now, is seems like continuing as an Operative is not the way to do that.

 

So what's your plan when Operatives are eventually considered the best healers? Are you going to level every class to 50 so you can swap to it at a moment's notice to give your guild the "best contribution?"

[Xenthum]

So what's your plan when Operatives are eventually considered the best healers? Are you going to level every class to 50 so you can swap to it at a moment's notice to give your guild the "best contribution?"

 

Progression raiders in every game have a stable of characters prepared to help their guild succeed.

[raelimar]

Sorc healing is a little overtuned at the moment, but Operatives are still very strong sustained healers. The problem is Sorcs bring roughly the same amount of longevity, better burst, and better utility, and they don't have to deal with our resource management issues. You can match a Sorc's healing, but you really have to outplay them to do so.

[Kurugi]

Progression raiders in every game have a stable of characters prepared to help their guild succeed.

 

I've been raiding in MMOs for 6 years. I've been a raid leader and officer in multiple high progression raiding guilds so I don't need you telling me about what goes on in progression raiding.

 

My point was the OP shouldn't worry about it so much. People act like people get taken based on their class like it's a common thing and it's not. Player > role > class, and it very rarely gets past the player when it comes to taking people for raid based on my experience.

 

I'm still playing WoW and am currently an officer in a HM progressed raiding guild. One of our best healers is a resto shaman and resto shamans have pretty much been considered the worst healer for this entire expansion, yet we still bring him to every single raid because he's a very good player. He has pretty much every healing class to 85 as well but we still bring him on his Shaman because his shaman is more geared and he knows that class so much better.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Kurugi

[Xenthum]

I've been raiding in MMOs for 6 years. I've been a raid leader and officer in multiple high progression raiding guilds so I don't need you telling me about what goes on in progression raiding.

 

My point was the OP shouldn't worry about it so much. People act like people get taken based on their class like it's a common thing and it's not. Player > role > class, and it very rarely gets past the player when it comes to taking people for raid based on my experience.

 

I'm still playing WoW and am currently an officer in a HM progressed raiding guild. One of our best healers is a resto shaman and resto shamans have pretty much been considered the worst healer for this entire expansion, yet we still bring him to every single raid because he's a very good player. He has pretty much every healing class to 85 as well but we still bring him on his Shaman because his shaman is more geared and he knows that class so much better.

 

Really because Rsham is the best healer in Dragon Soul and has been forever. They're an absolute requirement for surviving heroic encounters.

Player > Role > Class, except when Player has multiple classes/roles and can change at will. Then it's Class>all, because the Player is all of them.

 

It's nice that you want to say that "Being worse than them is fine if you're good." but if you're also good and playing the best class, you're excellent. Balance is balance, don't be stupid.

[Kurugi]

Really because Rsham is the best healer in Dragon Soul and has been forever. They're an absolute requirement for surviving heroic encounters.

 

We must be playing different games then. Yes resto shamans got nice buffs in 4.3, but prior to that their was constant complaints from them and others about how worse they are compared to other healers. Resto druids have been the top healers through most of the expansion. You simply don't know what you're talking about.

 

Player > Role > Class, except when Player has multiple classes/roles and can change at will. Then it's Class>all, because the Player is all of them.

 

That's fine for world first type guilds who care more about the progression and less about being fair, but you talk to most guilds and they wouldn't allow their members to constantly flip-flop their mains around mainly because it ****s up loot distribution. Most guilds aren't going to be ok with someone doing that because it's not fair to the people that have been sticking with a class for a long period of time now having to put up with a "FOTM" type player who most likely will take their gear and in a month or two play something else because that class is now nerfed.

 

In fact, the people you're talking about who have multiple toons leveled and geared (I have 3 85's in WoW myself) still have one designated as their main, they just swap to whatever toon benefits the raid makeup for a specific boss fight. That's not what it sounds like the OP is intending to do at all. It sounds more like they are looking to play the "best" healer full-time, which is a silly thing to do because "best" is a very subjective and constantly changing thing in MMOs.

 

It's nice that you want to say that "Being worse than them is fine if you're good." but if you're also good and playing the best class, you're excellent. Balance is balance, don't be stupid.

 

Good players know that MMOs are always changing and it's silly to constantly change your class because the one you're playing just got nerfed or another one received a substantial buff. Bad players constantly reroll to the current "best" class because instead of sticking it out and learning the ins and outs they have to rely on the current power of the class to get by.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Kurugi

[Damukag]

Also, is it me or is Kolto Probe incredibly lackluster?

 

It takes longer than a Kolto Injection to get two stacks on the target (two GCDs = 3 seconds vs Kolto Injection taking 2), it costs more energy (15 per stack = 30 energy vs Kolto Injection taking 25), and it heals for basically the exact same amount over 18 seconds as Kolto Injection does instantly.

 

You need to keep it refreshed for at least two durations for it to become more energy or time efficient, and that's generally only possible on the tank.

 

I find that I generally don't even cast this for healing most of the time, only for the hope of TA procs. If I cast it on someone taking damage, they're going to need a Kolto Injection anyway to survive.

 

Our HoT should do more than just produce a resource for us. We should be able to at least rely on it some for healing.

[spythe]

Also, is it me or is Kolto Probe incredibly lackluster?

 

It takes longer than a Kolto Injection to get two stacks on the target (two GCDs = 3 seconds vs Kolto Injection taking 2), it costs more energy (15 per stack = 30 energy vs Kolto Injection taking 25), and it heals for basically the exact same amount over 18 seconds as Kolto Injection does instantly.

 

You need to keep it refreshed for at least two durations for it to become more energy or time efficient, and that's generally only possible on the tank.

 

I find that I generally don't even cast this for healing most of the time, only for the hope of TA procs. If I cast it on someone taking damage, they're going to need a Kolto Injection anyway to survive.

 

Our HoT should do more than just produce a resource for us. We should be able to at least rely on it some for healing.

 

I completely agree with you. I think the problem with Kolto Injection is that it takes 2 stacks to be...decent and even then the heal is ***. Mine with solid gear about 136 rating avg with pvp/pve gear heals for about 500-700 and crits for about 1-1.1k. It was fine in pre 50 flashpoints but now it almost seems like a waste of a gcd. Without the chance to proc TA I would never cast it on anyone else but the tank. I also hate that half of our heals are semi proc based, surgical probe makes sense since its free but I don't understand it at all for Kolto Infusion, why cost a TA and 20 energy and its awful for burst dmg since its proc based. Kolto Injection to Kolto Infusion kills your energy -45, any other energy cost gets you really close to dropping before 60 which screws up your regen.

[ominousz]

Progression raiders in every game have a stable of characters prepared to help their guild succeed.

 

Actually, not so much. A credible progressive guild will have players with one main, who is their designated raider. Somebody with a "stable" of alts, is going to have a "stable" of mediocre-geared characters and really isnt going to contribute as much as they could... say if they put all their time and attention into one character.

 

Edit: oh, except for an unemployed young-buck who lives in their mother's basement that plays WoW. That cartoon-pretending-to-be-an-MMO allows you to level AND gear your toons in BIS, in less than a week.

Edited January 22, 2012 by ominousz

[Findulidas]

Don't delude yourself into thinking that just because people cry on these forums. Sometimes these forums do more damage than good. Well actually... most of the time.

 

QFT. Taking someone post on the forums as truth is a sure way make mistakes.

[Findulidas]

Also, is it me or is Kolto Probe incredibly lackluster?

 

Except it give tactical advantage with the right specc and with those extra tactical advantages you get a free surgical probe, Also when the 2stack is almost ran out you can reapply and it will be a 2stack again healing a large amount of dmg for very little energy.

[Nessirin]

Hmm. Not encouraging news. I'm level 48, be a shame for all that work to go to waste.

 

Don't worry, OPs , aside from all the outcry, are great healers. I do not understand why people say we're bad at healing. We basically have [if well managed] unlimited resources. I used to heal, and even though I'm dps now I can say from experience hm's were no sweat for me. I dps in raids so I can not say, but we have one of the best (if not the best) operative healer on the server in our guild and he can keep the entire raid alive by himself on some hardmode fights (while not optimal, had a healer death today and he kept us alive).

 

I think of OP healers as jack of all trades, we don't really have a healing niche. Our only weakness is constant burst healing when needed (adrenaline probe on cd, hard to burst heal without gimping energy regen).

[TrevFFM]

Sorc healing is a little overtuned at the moment, but Operatives are still very strong sustained healers. The problem is Sorcs bring roughly the same amount of longevity, better burst, and better utility, and they don't have to deal with our resource management issues. You can match a Sorc's healing, but you really have to outplay them to do so.

 

You're never going to match a Sorc's raw numbers. A sorc guildmate of mine pulled of 835k healing in a Voidstar while the highest I've ever gotten was 460k(and no other healing OP/SC on my server comes close to putting up the numbers I do), Sorc healers in my guild consistently put out 500k+ healing per match while I'm hovering around 320k) . The Sorc's shield is great for mitigating burst, and their AOE heal put's Kolto Cloud/RN to absolute shame.

Edited January 22, 2012 by TrevFFM

[Findulidas]

pulled of 835k healing in a Voidstar

 

Dont use warzone healing output as an example on how much healing you could do in pve.

[twosixnineone]

My group runs 2 op healers for nightmare mode, no problems whatsoever.

[steinsgate]

Except it give tactical advantage with the right specc and with those extra tactical advantages you get a free surgical probe, Also when the 2stack is almost ran out you can reapply and it will be a 2stack again healing a large amount of dmg for very little energy.

 

You have to have KP up on four people to expect to gain 1 TA every time the ICD on Med Eng is up. Since the ICD of Med Eng is 6 seconds at rank three, that means that each round of kolto probes will generate a maximum of 2 TA. So, we must spend 60 energy every 15 seconds to maybe gain 2 TA and healing that won't be enough to keep their health up through anything except HM BT.

 

This wouldn't be a problem if

1. SP were stronger

2. The max number of stacks of TA were increased

3. Med Eng had no ICD

4. RN refreshed stacks of KP

5. DS refreshed stacks of KP

6. ALACRITY AFFECTED HOT TICK TIMERS DEAR GOD WHY ISN'T THIS THE CASE ALREADY

Edited January 22, 2012 by steinsgate

[noctred]

You're never going to match a Sorc's raw numbers. A sorc guildmate of mine pulled of 835k healing in a Voidstar while the highest I've ever gotten was 460k(and no other healing OP/SC on my server comes close to putting up the numbers I do), Sorc healers in my guild consistently put out 500k+ healing per match while I'm hovering around 320k) . The Sorc's shield is great for mitigating burst, and their AOE heal put's Kolto Cloud/RN to absolute shame.

 

sup Trev

[Xenthum]

6. ALACRITY AFFECTED HOT TICK TIMERS DEAR GOD WHY ISN'T THIS THE CASE ALREADY

 

That's what we get for playing a poor attempt at a copy. An inferior version.

 

Op healer: It's like playing a Made In China version of resto druid.