extreme_one Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Question to Jeff Hickman I always suspected that Marauder was weaker then other classes. So this is what we did: Myself and some other marauder players have collected over 200 results(print screens) of PvP matches. We put them into a simple comparison software. The results speak for itself. Marauder is the weakest class in SWTOR. About 40% weaker then for example Sith assassin. Other classes have much better results and no other classes come close. Note: We removed our own marauders results from the result just to make the numbers more fair. The results are all from lvl 50 PvP and only from Empire. I am reading the forums and I see that I am not the only one noticing this unbalance. We(ppl who collected the data) have actually stopped playing. I have sent all of the above results in a letter and as a fax to Bioware. Now, I am not sure if you will read this or even if the class marauder is supposed to be weaker or not. But there is one thing I am sure of now and that is that we now have proof that our class is weaker without a doubt. My questions is therefore what are you going to do about it? /M ps. Leaving out our own stats from the data makes giving details on how long I have played or who I am unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindl Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Why don't you provide said data? What specs were these Marauders? What data points were you comparing? Total damage? Killing blows? Solo kills? Kills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Melee damage dealers suffer in PvP. They've specifically said Huttball in particular was not designed with melee in mind. PvP is NOT about damage done. At all. I can easily get only 50k damage done but score 6 times in Huttball. I do it on many occasions - usually with my premade - because Marauders are amazing ball carriers. We can and most likely will get some changes coming to us, but judging a class' performance based solely on overall damage is completely inaccurate. Edited January 21, 2012 by Kibaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnyvor Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 While I agree that Maras can be weak in PVP, I respectfully disagree regarding dps. Its not that our DPS is bad. Its that we can never get to a target and reliably hit them with getting stun/mezz/CC FF'd then nuked while we are rooted. Maras can be scary in PVP, but Anni maras seem to do better than Rage. Carnage maras, at least on my server, are fail, they dont have any large bursty DPS abilites like either rage or Anni. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PILGRiMofDESiGN Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Marauders are great, I don't see what you mean. quite often I am able to fully support any ball carrier, and often get several 'touchdowns' too. originally I disliked playing Huttball, but now I actually prefer it over Voidstar. there will always be the occasional bad game, I've accepted that and, as a leveling player - I know there are people that are better than me at this aspect of the game. I still enjoy it though. This is coming from a Non-PVP speced (or geared) leveling Marauder. Often the most annoyed I get (across all warzones) is players who simply neglect the objective of the match. if its Huttball, stack on the ball or coordinate a sneaky throw to get that ball across the line. Voidstar - stack the bomb plants. dont get drawn away from them. Alderaan - Stack close to the controls, and keep an eye on the map. and use PVP items. if you're doing the PVP dailies you should have plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffle_shuffle Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Marauders are one of the best pvp classes in game, but require significantly more skill to play well. A full or nearly fully champion geared marauder is quite capable of hitting for greater than 5k in a single hit and doing 350k to 400k damage per warzone. The reason most people do not achieve this is many of their hardest hitting moves require significant set-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soonerjohn Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 If you just used print screen results, how were you able to tell the difference between marauders and juggernauts? Or any class for that matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnyvor Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 While I agree that Maras... completely or mostly geared in Champ purples CAN do significant damage... without a pocket healer or a full premade supporting them... they get rolled way more often than any other solo class in warzones... That was the only point I wanted to make. I know that Maras CAN rock... if they have at least 1 pocket, premade healer... but no one was discussing premades... we were discussing the class as a stand alone entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 If you just used print screen results, how were you able to tell the difference between marauders and juggernauts? Or any class for that matter? He's tryin to bring hate to my forums. I will not let such trolls walk freely in my domain without first being horribly, horribly embarrassed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karnyvor Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 He's tryin to bring hate to my forums. I will not let such trolls walk freely in my domain without first being horribly, horribly embarrassed. I must've missed it, because I don't see any hate in his post. Can you clarify the above statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaeTakbae Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I must've missed it, because I don't see any hate in his post. Can you clarify the above statement? This 10char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) I must've missed it, because I don't see any hate in his post. Can you clarify the above statement? Not hate, per se. I can't quite think of the correct word to use. As has been proven multiple times, many people on the SWToR forums make up wild stories in order to prove a "hunch" they have or strike up a huge outcry from the community. Case in point (unfortunately I can't find the thread) the guy who said he had almost 15 Valor ranks removed to "fix his exploiting" of Ilum post 1.1. Two to three pages into the thread, after people were rejoicing that BW has responded with rollbacks, a gold-poster came in to say that no action had ever been taken on the OPs account and that, basically, he lied. This also goes in line with the large number of "I got banned for swearing in group chat with real-life friends" posts that also got shot down by gold-posters as being completely false. Unless the OP can provide his statistics as well as his method of analysis - including factoring in non-damage, non-healing, and non-defense utility he's just trying to start arguments. If you look at his same thread on the PvP forums it did just that. Edited January 21, 2012 by Kibaken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappus Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Marauders are one of the best pvp classes in game, but require significantly more skill to play well. A full or nearly fully champion geared marauder is quite capable of hitting for greater than 5k in a single hit and doing 350k to 400k damage per warzone. The reason most people do not achieve this is many of their hardest hitting moves require significant set-up. Yeah, but common on a 5 min cd, at least for annihilation. Almost full champion and max I hit is around 3800, which is without any special buff on me except the 10% from my stance with those 5 hits you have to do prior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miliways Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Question to Jeff Hickman We put them into a simple comparison software. I know, I'll write up a quick GUI in Visual Basic to track his IP! Troll thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pappus Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 There is no reason to believe, that the OP would actually lie. Of course it is the internetz and so on, but the methods he used are quite fine to check for balance across classes. Balance is something you have to achieve on all levels. It isn't balance if you have a single class being a lot more complex without a benefit over simpler classes. It also shouldn't be a design goal to have a hard to play class per se. So if you go and check the arithmetic middle of the classes ane one keeps showing up on the lower end, then you know it is the class. It doesn't matter what reason there is it just states that something is wrong - it may be, that the marauder is harder impacted by the delays as an example yet you could also argue why assassins still do relatively fine and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 ps. Leaving out our own stats from the data makes giving details on how long I have played or who I am unnecessary. That line is all the reason you need to not believe him. He could've done 200 matches from level 10 to 34 in the first week the game was out and finally finished analyzing things. Marauders are very imbalanced at low levels. We rely heavily on higher level abilities to really excel in PvP; especially against higher level players. If you're constantly getting Bounty Hunters spamming Tracer Missile or a smart Sorcerer/Sniper sitting far from everyone just pummeling people it's easy to see a huge disadvantage there. Seeing when the data was taken and seeing what levels/classes the players involved in the survey were and, if 50, how much PvP gear they had are integral to understanding his reasoning. There's a reason why, when reporting results of a survey, you clearly explain how many and what kind of people were surveyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texoc Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I dont get it. How did you pick your data? Based on what? And btw comparing Sith *** / Inqs BHs with Marauder i just noticed ... All Ranged Classes > Meele , especially Sith Inq > all. So you will get alot more Sith Assasin Data then Marauder... Furthermore you have to count in PvP armor. A fresh 50 fighting vs all 10% expertise buffs wont be near as good as a full Battlemaster. I can provide plenty of screenshots (mine aswell as from other marauder/sents ive seen) that will show that marauders can be devastating. Just yesterday faced a Sentinel in PvP gear on Alderaan(annihilation spec) who just destroyed us. He leaped in to 4 guys and dispatched 3 in like 15 secs and took the last down to 20% hp. Reps totally rolled us, so it was pretty much a 5-6 min match as they had all turrets. In the end he was like 200k dmg in front of the closest guy on the board. Max dmg someone else reached was arround 90k (both teams), the sent was at 260k. Gonna post the screeny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vetril Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 That line is all the reason you need to not believe him. He could've done 200 matches from level 10 to 34 in the first week the game was out and finally finished analyzing things. Marauders are very imbalanced at low levels. We rely heavily on higher level abilities to really excel in PvP; especially against higher level players. If you're constantly getting Bounty Hunters spamming Tracer Missile or a smart Sorcerer/Sniper sitting far from everyone just pummeling people it's easy to see a huge disadvantage there. Seeing when the data was taken and seeing what levels/classes the players involved in the survey were and, if 50, how much PvP gear they had are integral to understanding his reasoning. There's a reason why, when reporting results of a survey, you clearly explain how many and what kind of people were surveyed. Well he sort of did, if you look at his post. The results are all from lvl 50 PvP and only from Empire. He could still be pulling things out of his ***, but I can't say I would be surprised if it were the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoah Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Love that a thread titled evidence has none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROMUBOTHUGORUGOR Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Marauder isn't the weakest it just got the biggest fanbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kibaken Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Even if it is 50 PvP how much gear does he have? How much gear did his friends have? Did he have healers on his team? Did the opposing team have healers? How geared were the opponents? These questions not having exact answers - I guarantee he didn't go inspect every enemy he played against - prove easily enough that this thread is bullocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qIrwuMfh Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) 'complex' and 'marauder' - wait what? Did anyone use these words in the same sentence? :-D People should finally get their Battlemaster equip, learn how to use rels and play versus good players and maybe then start thinking without **** pouring out of their mouth. Marauders along with the Sorceress and their republican pendants are lead classes in this game. This means: easy to learn/use but hard to master. Making statements and decisiouns out of game experience in Huttball or other WZs, including weird metrics which you pulled out of your *** somewhere is as useless as you all posting on this forum. If anyone claims 'proof' then start spitting math and not vague numbers. Randoms. Edited January 22, 2012 by Paralassa content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garlik Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 This is the most ridiculous one yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlordomega Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Why don't you provide said data? What specs were these Marauders? What data points were you comparing? Total damage? Killing blows? Solo kills? Kills? because he didnt really do this or he would have prvided it with the post.... isnt it obvious? he is just a troll looking for attention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elomin Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) I've leveled my mara solely in pvp. From 10 to 36 now. I have never had an issue being in the top 3 damage and kills every match, sense about 20ish. It's all about your spec, and how you use your skills. Mara's have TONS of skills. But depending on your spec, your lucky to use half of them. This is intended. Bioware tried to make it so that each of the mara specs had it's own distinctive play-style and feel. My guess is, you and your friends are trying many different approaches at once, and failing at all of them. Personally, im Carnage spec. I have great survive-ability, utility, and pvp ability. FFS I have a stun (force leap), a channeled stun (effectively) force choke, a ranged root (saber throw), and a melee root (rampage). Comboing gore and force scream I regularly crit MASSIVELY. Usually for 40% of an enemies health bar (Combo also bypasses all armor). That's not even mention that you get 2 snare breakers instead of one. Add to that a rage ability that grants an entire group a speed and defense increase...(this includes ball carriers)...honestly what more are your asking for? A bit red I win button? Before you rage that you shouldn't pay attention to me because im not 50...I was killing 50's like they were anyone else before the bracketing. The only exception being people in full Champ / BM gear. But guess what, when im 50. I expect to be in that gear myself, so it will even out. Bottom line LEARN YOUR SPEC. If your carnage, your all about force scream, gore, and rampage. You use your wide array of abilities to keep people in melee range with you, and you tear them to shreds. Once I get my 41 point ability I expect this to change. But it should only increase my killing ability from what it is now. If your annihilation spec in pvp your all about dot jousting. Run in, rupture. Deadly saber for your 3 procs, then run out. (combat stealth). Sense you have a massive damage reduction while stealthed you can get away with this vs ranged classes. Then you either run in and dot again, or you run in, burn a rage burning effect, and burn them down. If you try to just stand, tank and spank as this spec, you will not do well. In PVE this spec does well because a tank is there to pull the mob off you, in PVP you MUST joust. You MUST be mobile. Rage? Eh I dunno I'll let you know when I try it. Personally for pvp at this point, I prefer carnage...but it's all about play style...AS INTENDED. Focus on and learn your spec people. Cry later. Edited January 21, 2012 by Elomin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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