SWTOR endgame is an absolute disaster

[Zrathen]

The thread title is actually quite interesting, because if one views SWTOR as a standalone, then yes the endgame is an absolute disaster; however, if one were to compare SWTOR's endgame upon release to that of other MMO's and view it subjectively against its counterparts then it is not nearly as bad as it seems.

 

TC you obviously have a lot of experience with MMO's, you play them and experience their content on the PVE side in ways that I would imagine most casual gamers do not. What I'm confused about is why you felt the need to post something like this when clearly you have been around for the launch of MMO's before. I share many common games on your list and even expand it with more games and my honest response to reading your post was: DUH. This isn't supposed to be an insult to you but how could you possibly have such dilusions of grandeur that you would think that SWTOR would be released polished? No MMO has ever been released polished, yet the community is so seriously thickheaded that they expect with every new mmo it will be released with few to no bugs and full playability. That's just stupid. At what point does an avid fan of the genre obtain the common sense to realize that the standard MMO's are released at is much lower than the state of the game within the next 3 months.

 

This isn't meant to be an attack, all of the things you brought up were indeed legitimate and need to be addressed by Bioware, but being surprised that this game wasn't released to a level of polish adequate to give it full content playability is just silly to me. Obviously there needs to be a level of understanding reached between companies and consumers in regards to MMO's because it's destroying MMO's across the board and sucking the life out of the genre and its awesome potential. It is unreasonable to think that within a month the game would be polished, look at the track record of MMO launches we've seen in the past few years. Obviously there was a hype around the game and people were tricked into thinking it would be released perfectly but the ones saying it is as good as it should be are just as idiotic as the ones saying its unplayably buggy. An MMO is a huge game, is encompasses PVP, story, top tier PVE, and crafting elements into one game. This isn't a basic shooting game where the physics need to be checked [no, I'm not saying that's all that goes into a shooting game at all, its sarcasm], its an expansive world, it's going to have bugs.

 

Also, it is not the TC's fault he's already at endgame. When developers launch a game they don't launch it with a "We'd really prefer it if you don't go hard into this game, take your time and play some other games too so you don't level too fast." Though I agree he is slightly silly for being frustrated at his claims and the lack of foresight [ironically in regards to Bioware's foresight] but he has every right to play the game how he wishes.

 

[Me ranting starts here]

IMO Bioware goofed with making the game so easy to level to max in. This is the MMO genre, defined by titles such as UO, EQ, and Vanilla WoW; All of those games had grind and were actually somewhat time consuming to get to the highest level. Whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, the MMO genre went one that was full of a smaller and more loyal fanbase who was okay with slaving over goals and immersing hundreds of hours into their characters to a more public and larger audience of people who want to play the game casually, and I think that those two polar opposites pulling on the chain is part of what's "drying" up the genre [potentially]. Even death in this game has no penalty, you lose a minute or two of time and a repair fee. One of the greatest times I've had in an MMO was in Lineage 2, grinding up my Ghost Walker getting ready for a castle siege and PvPing in hot XP zones against rival clans who were contending for our spots; It was Open pvp everywhere among anyone, and clan politics ruled based on power because when you died you lost ~8% XP, and you could be deleveled. It was frustrating and rewarding.

 

TLDR: Game was released exactly how I expected it to be in regards to content and playability, what made you assume differently?

[Rathoz]

well he made it to 50 before the end of December. 200+hrs to do your storyline alone. He probably played 19+hrs each day. I can see that burning someone out.

 

Dunno what you are doing, but I finished all my quests / got to level 50 after around 60 hours of playing. And with no space-baring.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Rathoz

[PjPablo]

Well said.

 

Agree.

 

BW has set up for themselves (the bomb?) a very difficult situation. If you are going to keep the active endgame raider happy you are going to need to come out with content at a blistering pace. Look at the update the other day. That raid is cleared and done. I have this picture of BW devs as Lucy and Ethel at the chocolate factory busting tail but not keeping up.

[RocNessMonster]

First and foremost let me assure you that when I say that SWTOR's endgame is a huge mess I am saying this from experience as myself and my guild are one of the most progressed around. We are 4/5 nightmare mode in EV already and most of us have been level 50 since late december. We have consumed all of the content SWTOR has to offer and what we have experienced is alarming.

 

...I am saying this from experience. My guild and I, are...

Edited January 21, 2012 by RocNessMonster

[genmyke]

Dunno what you are doing, but I finished all my quests / got to level 50 after around 60 hours of playing. And with no space-baring.

 

you finished all your quest in 2 and a half days? and hit 50 that doesnt sound right.

[Turibur]

Rift had an incredibly smooth release. Trion very actively communicated with the community and often patched several times a week for what few true bugs there were. They also had the sense to make T1 and t2 content really challenging at release so that the hardcore power level types had something to do and then later concurrently added more raid content and reduced T1/t2 difficulty to keep hardcores/casuals engaged.

 

There are people who had full best in slot a few weeks after release in this game. When bugs provide a greater challenge than content somebody needs to be fired.

 

This! I dont really get all these people that say "omg name one mmo that had endgame/few bugs/smooth release at launch" when we have Rift that was released not long ago that did all that really well.

[Battlequest]

Give it time. there will be end game content added eventually. Thats why I'm just taking my time to get t o 50. I'm a second-day EGA player and my highest level is a 33 Powertech.

 

The first week I got all 16 advanced classes (8 rep, 8 emp) across 2 servers.

 

Then recently I leveled up biochem and got all the reusable medpacs up to 48). currently working on getting the purp end, aim stims (got the endurance schematic so far for lvl 32, gonna work on the lvl 40 ones soon). Also I gather bio, slicing to save up for gear upgrades.

 

By the time I get to 50 they'll be plenty to do end-game. It's good to take your time and take it slow. Because of it my 33 powertech has 9821 health and 4800 armor and thats without stims. This game is here to stay so 50 can wait, IMO.

 

If everyone did this then no one would be worried about end game.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Battlequest

[ValaxDarkseer]

Rift had an incredibly smooth release. Trion very actively communicated with the community and often patched several times a week for what few true bugs there were. They also had the sense to make T1 and t2 content really challenging at release so that the hardcore power level types had something to do and then later concurrently added more raid content and reduced T1/t2 difficulty to keep hardcores/casuals engaged.

 

There are people who had full best in slot a few weeks after release in this game. When bugs provide a greater challenge than content somebody needs to be fired.

 

This is VERY true which is why I cringe when I read lame responses like, "All games are like this at release blah blah" which I see way to often on these forums.

 

While I found Rift itself to be pretty soulless and generic the game itself was incredibly well-done. Trion did a fantastic job programming the game and sooner or later Trion is gonna get their hands on a big IP (Marvel Universe please!) and knock it out of the park.

 

Turbine also did a wonderful job with LOTRO and that games launch was virtually bug-free and it worked just fine.

 

I can only dream of what SWTOR would have looked like if Trion had of developed the game instead of Bioware. I still cant figure out where SWTOR's budget went. The only thing I can figure is the funds were gobbled up by producers/execs just like what happened with that dumpster fire of a show on Starz called "Camelot" which cost 2mill more per episode to make than Game of Thrones which is insane when the quality of GoT was lightyears ahead of Camelot.

Edited January 21, 2012 by ValaxDarkseer

[genmyke]

This! I dont really get all these people that say "omg name one mmo that had endgame/few bugs/smooth release at launch" when we have Rift that was released not long ago that did all that really well.

 

rift is a good game no doubt but the thing is why alot discredit the game alot is because even myself find the game did what alot of people say when any other mmo comes out and that is it copied WoW it has something different from WoW like quad spec but honestly alot of the classes in the game plays the exact same as WoW from head to toe.

 

imo that was the only game that is a real WoW clone.

Edited January 21, 2012 by genmyke

[Avrose]

I can't emphasize this enough. This is NOT , I repeat, NOT an exaggeration , Gharj is (in my opinion) even more messed up than Soa, who at least can't kill me when I'm in the freaking FLEET.

 

I understand bugs take time to fix.

I understand that testing can't reveal everything.

I understand that some bugs are hard to pin down and may take months.

I understand that right now the focus is on tightning features and stuff that's killing PvE.

 

But come on. There's never, ever, ever going to be a good way to explain this.

 

Molten Core

 

Added in-game voice for Ragnaros and Majordomo Executus.

Fixed an issue that was causing the first Firelord to stop moving.

Garr will now lose his enrage buff when he leaves combat.

Majordomo Executus will now make the Flamewaker Healers immune to polymorph at the appropriate time, even after failed attempts.

Bringing Flamewaker Healers too far away from Majordomo Executus will now result in the Healers becoming immune to Polymorph.

Line of Sight checks removed from many creature abilities in Molten Core.

Sons of Flame now despawn when everyone wipes.

Ragnaros will reset properly if the raid wipes while submerged.

 

Bugs sound familiar don't they? These were sorted 4 months after launch.

 

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_4.3.0

 

Lots of bugs in here too. Its almost like bugs are part of running an mmo.

 

But hey who am I to judge?

Edited January 21, 2012 by Avrose

[Rayvonuk]

WOW had MC and Ony in at launch. It took 2 months to clear Ony and 5 to clear MC for the first time.

 

Had them yes, but they didnt work for ages.

[Jesmcalli]

You mention that you have been playing MMO's for 15years, i guess this is the first MMO you have been playing at Launch beacause from my own experience, and partipation in multiple betas and day 1 relase (Dark Age of Camelot, WoW, Rift, EQ2, Lineage, Lineage2, WAR and i could keep going...) this is by far one of the best launch i had the chance to see in thse past 15 years.

 

Since it's the closest of them all and that pretty much everyone and his mother as been playing it ill go with Wolrd of warcraft. First of all the game as been out for a solid 7 years, and still they fail on EVERY major patch server are down for 10hour more then it was expected in the begining. But still ppl would get over it only to rage the next couple days untill some fix were applied to correct some bugs

 

At launch their was no end game content, no Battlegrounds and **** loads of bugs. I remember doing 40 Mans LBRS or UBRS because this was the only thing do to. When MC first came out, the bugs were ordendous and barely playable. But again this was new ppl raging everywhere crying like 90% of the haters are doing right now allover the forums.

 

Ok SWToR might now have the potential of being the best MMO ever, BW might not have what it takes financaly to support the game the way Blizzard did. But yes atleast their is End Game content, we have Warzone both are bugged as hell but so far im enjoying it, we cleared 16HM, moslty fighting bugs and not bosses but well we went through it.

 

 

Rift's launch was lightyears ahead of SWTOR. Controls and animations were fluid. PVP worked ( granted, with balance issues, but it worked at least), any bugs that were found were addressed in a hot minute. Trion was in constant contact with the playerbase. I've been though most of the same launches as you have, and Rift easily takes the cake. It's only downfall is that it was *too* similar to WoW. But, for a WoW clone, it was a very solid game, with a few interesting innovations that weren't enough to drag huge numbers from WoW.

[Saitada]

Personally, I don't think anybody should even be close to level cap 30 days after the game has launched (let alone people who reached it 6 days after early access started). A game that allows max level to be attained in under 30 days, is pathetic. Period. Nobody should be even close to cap at 6 months to a year (or more). Sorry if you disagree with that, but a game isn't "end game content".. it's the journey from here to there. Rushing to the end just to do the same dungeons... over.... and over.... and over..... and over...... and over...... Seriously..... That isn't playing an MMORPG... it's being a drone.

 

MMO makers have forgotten that and now cater to people with short attention spans.

 

I was personally shocked to find you could attain cap in such a short time. In my opinion (and it is only my opinion) it doesn't speak much to the longevity of the game. Hope i'm wrong. I'd like to be playing SWTOR 5 years from now.. but currently... I don't see that happening at all.

 

~Saitada

[Raijinvince]

But dont come here telling me this game would have blown WoW out of the water 7 years ago, because it wouldnt.

 

Mmm, yeah, it probably would have, but it's not a fair comparison. A lot of what SWTOR has in it is from WoW...comparing release day SWTOR to release day WoW isn't fair in any way, shape, or form to vanilla WoW, but it certainly would've blown it away.

[Jesmcalli]

Molten Core

 

Added in-game voice for Ragnaros and Majordomo Executus.

Fixed an issue that was causing the first Firelord to stop moving.

Garr will now lose his enrage buff when he leaves combat.

Majordomo Executus will now make the Flamewaker Healers immune to polymorph at the appropriate time, even after failed attempts.

Bringing Flamewaker Healers too far away from Majordomo Executus will now result in the Healers becoming immune to Polymorph.

Line of Sight checks removed from many creature abilities in Molten Core.

Sons of Flame now despawn when everyone wipes.

Ragnaros will reset properly if the raid wipes while submerged.

 

Bugs sound familiar don't they? These were sorted 4 months after launch.

 

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_4.3.0

 

Lots of bugs in here too. Its almost like bugs are part of running an mmo.

 

But hey who am I to judge?

 

2004...when MMOs were relatively young and the 800 lb gorilla in the room was EQ with a whopping 500k subs. Bioware has had the better part of a decade to see what other devs were doing, what the playerbase generally expected. It seems they did exactly opposite on every count.

[Seraphical]

Can someone remind me again why one of the "most progressed" guild's members burns through content and purposefully puts himself first in line to discover the bugs other people couldn't possibly see (subscribers, not developers/BioWare staff)... and then is surprised to find bugs.

 

You'd probably be wiser realizing that some of the top-end guilds in WoW also helped TEST out the newest content to tweak the encounters as well as find bugs. They probably even thought it an honor.

 

Maybe your guild should pick up the torch and do us all the honor of being that shining beacon of guild awesome we all aspire to be.

[LogicalPremise]

Give it time. there will be end game content added eventually. Thats why I'm just taking my time to get t o 50. I'm a second-day EGA player and my highest level is a 33 Powertech.

 

The first week I got all 16 advanced classes (8 rep, 8 emp) across 2 servers.

 

Then recently I leveled up biochem and got all the reusable medpacs up to 48). currently working on getting the purp end, aim stims (got the endurance schematic so far for lvl 32, gonna work on the lvl 40 ones soon). Also I gather bio, slicing to save up for gear upgrades.

 

By the time I get to 50 they'll be plenty to do end-game. It's good to take your time and take it slow. Because of it my 33 powertech has 9821 health and 4800 armor and thats without stims. This game is here to stay so 50 can wait, IMO.

 

If everyone did this then no one would be worried about end game.

 

UGH! Did you even READ!!

 

This is not about LACK of end game content! The current end game content is so bugged you can't even enjoy it!

 

Why do I have a boss who can kill me OUTSIDE of the EV in the fleet? (Gharj) Or a boss who apparently generates new and interesting bugs with every patch? (Soa! I hate you!)

 

Why do half the time when boxes drop you can't even loot them?

 

This isn't rocket science. It's not something crippling and difficult that takes a lot of time to figure out if it's client-side or server-side, like Ability Delay. If fixing ability delay takes two more months I'd be totally understanding of that. It's a tricky bug

 

THIS? This is sloppy coding and there is simply no logical way to defend it except to say "I'm not going to hold Bioware responsible for identifiable bugs picked up 3 months ago in Beta because I like the game that much".

 

That isn't the argument of a reasonable person. That's the argument of an addict.

[Avrose]

2004...when MMOs were relatively young and the 800 lb gorilla in the room was EQ with a whopping 500k subs. Bioware has had the better part of a decade to see what other devs were doing, what the playerbase generally expected. It seems they did exactly opposite on every count.

 

Um one you didn't address the bugs I pointed out that are happening now and two we are dealing with a whole new engine and three more importantly unless Bioware bribed Blizzard I doubt oh so much they shared secrets on how to run an mmo.

[Pirate-Fish]

From launch or earlier (mostly in order)

EQ1-Beta tester

Asherons Call 1

Dark Age of Camelot

EQ2- beta tester

Asherons Call 2

Shadowbane

City of Heroes

Guild Wars

LOTRO- beta tester

Fallen Earth

Champions Online

Star Trek Online

Perpetuum

DCUO- beta tester

Rift- beta tester

Gods and Heroes: Rome Rising

SWTOR- beta tester

 

First game was Darksun Online on the TEN Network in 1996. Also I never played WoW.

 

So what were you saying?

 

Grats, now all you need is $3 and you might be able to buy a cup of coffee.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Pirate-Fish

[Ommm]

Pretty accurate post by the op. Suffice to say im not subscribed anymore and issued a refund via amazon. Edited January 21, 2012 by Ommm

[Prilosec]

This thread is far too long and dumb for me to read in its entirety, but...

 

Onyxia was 1.1

 

C'thun was unkillable.

 

Heroic Lich King was unkillable.

 

I started typing bugs and exploits of other raid bosses on their release, but the list became too long.

 

**** happens, then you die.

[Darcedge]

Well, I can't speak for you since I have not been in a guild with more than 3 level 50s and doing raids. I can however speak to how frustrating it was to do Hardmode False Emp and getting one shot everytime the Trandosian jumped on me. I did it the other day after the patch and had a good 2 seconds to get out of the way and this made it that much more enjoyable, especially to heal. It shows me that BW is trying, and frankly that is all i ask for.

[Vydor_HC]

Good post OP. Gotta be frustrating for the players in your shoes. And doesn't look like Bioware is making people feel warm and fuzzy about the future of the game either.

[Ameenachan]

Yet I recall in ICC when I played wow, Arthas constantly glitching when he was first released. He would cast pestilence on the floors bellow him at any random moment and kill a whole squad of 25 people even though the three wings were not cleared.

 

BTW.

They still havent completely fixed that ;D

Edited January 21, 2012 by Ameenachan

[Fizil]

Molten Core

 

Added in-game voice for Ragnaros and Majordomo Executus.

Fixed an issue that was causing the first Firelord to stop moving.

Garr will now lose his enrage buff when he leaves combat.

Majordomo Executus will now make the Flamewaker Healers immune to polymorph at the appropriate time, even after failed attempts.

Bringing Flamewaker Healers too far away from Majordomo Executus will now result in the Healers becoming immune to Polymorph.

Line of Sight checks removed from many creature abilities in Molten Core.

Sons of Flame now despawn when everyone wipes.

Ragnaros will reset properly if the raid wipes while submerged.

 

Bugs sound familiar don't they? These were sorted 4 months after launch.

 

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_4.3.0

 

Lots of bugs in here too. Its almost like bugs are part of running an mmo.

 

But hey who am I to judge?

 

No one is saying bugs won't exist, or take time to fix. However the bugs were not the primary reason defeating these encounters took so long. Rag took so long for 2 reasons:

 

1. Guilds attempting him had limited attempts because of the bugs and the fight design (1 hour of attempts per week) making the fight difficult to learn.

2. Guilds needed 40 well geared players to have a serious chance at him.

 

The problem I see in modern raiding in WoW (at least from what I hear) and SWTOR, is that well NON-raid geared players can waltz into a raid, and defeat all the bosses their first time in. This added to the sheer amount of gear each boss drops leads to the raids being fully farmed extremely fast, at which point there is no longer ANY PvE content in the game that is meaningful to do.

 

Because it is so easy to complete the content and gear up, Bioware needs to produce new content INCREDIBLY fast, or the endgame players will quickly leave.

 

Both times I quit WoW, in BC and WotLK, it was in the lull between major content updates when the guild had nothing to do anymore.

 

edit: I will say that the new Kragga's raid bosses don't seem to have many bugs, if any, so hopefully that is at least an indication of future quality.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Fizil