GnatB Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I'd argue that lack of target of target indicator is the biggest problem. With it, the tank should almost be instantly able to reacquire aggro, especially against single enemies. Assuming the various "taunt" skills work as advertised, (and in my experience they seem to) it is *very* easy for a tank to pull aggro back onto himself in the short term. (The taunt skills don't say anything about increased threat compared to other skills. They only say that they force those affected to target the user for a time. (or in the case of PvP do 30% less damage against everything else)). So barring strenuous testing, (or modification to the tooltip) I'd be under the assumption that they don't in fact, actually generate threat (or at least, no moreso than other abilities), they are merely to be used if/when you lose aggro. Presumably tanks generate threat advantage by reducing DPS/Healers(guard) and increasing the tanks (tank stances) as well as various skills that explicitely say they give more threat. So, DPS (or whatever) over aggros. Mob targets them, tank immediately pulls it off with taunt, which gives 6 seconds of 100% target me, during which DPS should probably cut down on offensive fire to give tank time to re-establish more threat. And presumably tank should then guard that DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amiracle Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Scenario 1 First pull. Dps does typical rotation and doesn't pull agro. No adjustments needed. Scenario 2 First pull. Dps does typical rotation and pulls agro. DPS uses ability to lose agro or stops attacking till tank gets mob back and adjusts dps accordingly. Do you really need a add-on to tell you to use your agro mitigating abilities or to adjust your rotation? Or Don't start dpsing as soon as the tank pulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norumaniac Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Eventually, the content will be harder and we will need addons. Top guilds in the world use addons, and probably they are better mmo players than anyone in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyfeld Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The current content is easier, doesn't mean it may or may not get harder. To be prepared now I think is way better than say having it in later and it not being a polished/good as it could of been from a couple months (or more) of feedback. Yeah, I don't really see that happening. And even if it did, putting a threat meter in before "harder" content comes out is only going to trivialize current content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xploits Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Can you answer this question? Is that mob hitting me? If the answer is no, than maybe you to put some threat on it. If the answer is yes, than well, you have threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruibard Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Scenario 1 First pull. Dps does typical rotation and doesn't pull agro. No adjustments needed. Scenario 2 First pull. Dps does typical rotation and pulls agro. DPS uses ability to lose agro or stops attacking till tank gets mob back and adjusts dps accordingly. Do you really need a add-on to tell you to use your agro mitigating abilities or to adjust your rotation? Or Don't start dpsing as soon as the tank pulls. Scenario 3 Dps does rotation as normal, boss swings around and instant gibs the dps before their GCD is up Typical DPS pulling aggro, baddies will be bad. Just because bosses aren't instant gibbing people right now doesn't mean they won't in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaBubble Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 When I read the OP post here is what I was thinking... For all the talk about completing cross-word puzzles, I've noticed that very few players have mentioned having the answer key as one of their top arguments. Doing crossword puzzles, currently, is quite difficult, especially since I have no way of knowing what a particular word is from the clues I'm given. I have made the simple decision that I'm not going to crossword puzzles unless the answer key is added, simply because it's just not fun. In the era of New York Times type crossword puzzles, the answer key was the single most important thing anyone can have, to the point where any person without the answer key was considered bad and unfit for doing crossword puzzles. Which, unfortunately, describes the majority of people I have done puzzles with, whether by their own lack of skill or the limitations imposed on them by their intelligence. Yet nobody seems to mention this cardinal necessity. I would rather have the crossword puzzle answers than sudoko answers. Is there a way to get the answers that I'm not aware of? Lol. Though I'm sure your sarcastic wit won't be well received, this about sums up my thinking as well. My happiness and satisfaction comes from mmy ability to react quickly and appropriately as situations arise. I'd much rather have a group where the combat is lively and requires my skills to succeed than one where I'm staring at a meter that tells me who to attack, and when. But I understand that for many, com%leting the raid/Flashpoint is all that matters. I find such things dull, and don't want my experience "dumbed down". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruibard Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Can you answer this question? Is that mob hitting me? If the answer is no, than maybe you to put some threat on it. If the answer is yes, than well, you have threat. Is that mob about to hit? I don't know, better go about as usual! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telendria Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It strikes a particularly irksome nerve when I hear things like this, or other "post-WoW" game implementations referred to as "necessities" or "must-haves". I've played many an MMO as a tank without such a system. When do you know a party member has threat? When a mob runs toward them and starts beating them about the head and shoulders, that's when. Watch mobs closely, watch health bars, deliver your damage and aggro-grabbing abilities throughout the mobs evenly, and trust that members of your team won't suffer immediate death if a mob turns it's attention on them for a few seconds. That's the way I learned tanking. That's the way I tanked in Vanilla WoW, which was as long as I played it. Before you say, "Yeah, but you never tanked [insert WoW boss] in [insert post-vanilla WoW expansion] where you had to [insert incredible feat impossible without a threat meter]" Onyxia. now explain, how could you safely/smartly dps her without threat meter, while pulling respectable numbers (because yea, you could have autoattacked her only and never pulled aggro, but really...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltorio Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Scenario 3 Dps does rotation as normal, boss swings around and instant gibs the dps before their GCD is up Typical DPS pulling aggro, baddies will be bad. Just because bosses aren't instant gibbing people right now doesn't mean they won't in the future. And when they do, there may be a valid argument for there to be threat meters included in the game. But until that time, they're not required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theothersteve Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Actually, I thought that the crossword puzzle post was pretty funny. My argument, I guess is where we want the difficulty in the game to come from. By making threat more difficult, we force other parts of fights to be easier. Does that lead to a more fun game? Possibly. You guys managed to encourage me enough to give hardmodes a real chance before I pass judgement on them. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghettogenius Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Personally I don't think its necessary. I can tank fine in groups so long as there's decent cc and heals and everyone is on the same page. Its just easy mode to know exactly when a mob is going to peel. Besides half the fun are those "oh ****" moments where the group is forced to react quickly and change tactics or whatnot. I think my main gripe is when people want to bring metagaming components into roleplaying games. And yes this is a roleplaying game in that sense. Good mmorpgs always have an in game or in character reason for all elements in the game. Instant travel? They're taking a shuttle. Increased strength or damage? It comes from practicing your skill and getting better. Etc. I just don't see a good in game reason for why tanks would know when a mob is about to attack another party member. I'm sure you could probably make one up since roleplaying is about imagination, but eh. Besides, I really don't want to have to watch another element on the screen when I should be worrying about spatial positioning, health meters, cooldowns, interrupts, etc. Nor do I want to get lambasted over party chat for not having some lame 3rd party addon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drallbait Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 If the monster attacks you you have the highest threat. I certainly had to use these things once they existed, but a lot of good raids were done without a meter to tell you this stuff. It really should not be necessary. Learn by Playing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruibard Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 And when they do, there may be a valid argument for there to be threat meters included in the game. But until that time, they're not required. Last minute fixes? Those work out great. I would rather have it polished instead of being crappy and thrown in and full of bugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theothersteve Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 onyxia. Now explain, how could you safely/smartly dps her without threat meter, while pulling respectable numbers (because yea, you could have autoattacked her only and never pulled aggro, but really...) more dots! More dots! Now stop dots! Many whelps left side! Handle it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltorio Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Onyxia. now explain, how could you safely/smartly dps her without threat meter, while pulling respectable numbers (because yea, you could have autoattacked her only and never pulled aggro, but really...) Umm... tons of people did. Onyxia was one of the first raid bosses ever added to WoW. And if your talking about her now, your point is moot as she was designed with the fact that threat meters existed in-game, and Blizzard even included their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunayson Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Maybe we don't need hard threat meters, but we at least need an indicator on WHO has aggro. Especially against ranged mobs or mobs who are stationary and don't turn. If I obtained aggro, I would love some red text in the middle of my screen saying "X has turned their attention to you!" and vise-versa for losing aggro. They have some red text, but it's not in the middle of the screen. If you squint your eyes, and see that tinnyyyyyyyyyyy bar above your resource, it's a little something called HEALTH. When it does Right, thats, this was <----- way, then it's starwars language for YOU'RE GETTING HURT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barathos Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Can you answer this question? Is that mob hitting me? If the answer is no, than maybe you to put some threat on it. If the answer is yes, than well, you have threat. Here's the problem, there are ranged mobs. And these ranged mobs sometimes have AoEs so you don't know if you're getting hit by an AoE or he's actually beating your face in until it's a little late. A threat meter is great for the DPS cause I like to know if the guy hates me or not so I can blow my CDs. If I'm at 99 / 100 in the threat meter, i'm not popping anything. But you can't do that in this game, and I don't even know what the threat grab of some tanks is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardicon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hardicon, I'm glad we agree on something. Judging by your post that would be highly unlikely anyway, I tend toward serious endgame progression. yeah so do I and i dont need a tank that dont know how to hold aggro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rajhiim Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Reading the arguements for and against.... I rely on experience. "Oh wow, five of my biggest nukes in a row within the first five seconds of the fight is probably not a good idea since I pulled aggro." Player Skill isn't spamming buttons while watching a speedometer - it's feeling your class and riding that invisible envelope. but that's just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaBubble Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Onyxia. now explain, how could you safely/smartly dps her without threat meter, while pulling respectable numbers (because yea, you could have autoattacked her only and never pulled aggro, but really...) I'm really not interested in giving you a breakdown of every boss you can think of and how to successfully DPS it without a threat meter. Even now, while playing TOR, I have a pretty good inkling of when I'm getting close to pulling a boss off the tank. The point is, everything doesn't have to be a precise science in order to be enjoyable. How do I know for sure I'm not about to pull aggro. I don't. The difference between me and you is, I like it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitellius Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The problem really isn't about who's pulling threat as much as it is about efficiency. DPS can use it to optimize CD usage of their threat reduction abilities Tanks can use it to optimize ability usage Healers, well they can complain the DPS took aggro :3 Maybe we should just give control of the toons to the server and it can make every decision for us in the name of "efficiency". I kid, I kid Seriously though, there has to be a line. If I can plan out a battle so that everything goes my way right down to having my CDs complete at the exact moment I need them, I think that's giving the player a bit too much info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmthethird Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) i play sith warrior. if i steal hate. i use force camo and drop it i know this is not a solution to a tank knowing if they have hate or not. but its why i don't worry about hate Edited January 20, 2012 by grandmthethird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salryc Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 They have some red text, but it's not in the middle of the screen. If you squint your eyes, and see that tinnyyyyyyyyyyy bar above your resource, it's a little something called HEALTH. When it does Right, thats, this was <----- way, then it's starwars language for YOU'RE GETTING HURT! Thank you for this. You have just made my day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rajhiim Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Dream on buddy. No Addons nowadays equals slow, painful death. As for the "many games" successful without them, please feel free to name me 5. As for WoW tanks being lazy, thats your opinion. The best tanks usually learned to tank on WoW. Receiving more info trough threat meters only mean you're twice as efficient as the guy that's just "guessing". Nice try, troll. the best tanks I know tanked in Everquest first... no meters, no nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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