PvP 'DPS' Immortal Build 32/7/2

[Soup]

I have full Battlemasters at this point(minus the two trinkets), and I've used this same spec and gear for awhile now. I've tried the other two trees, and while they're great damage, I find Immortal to be much more versatile. You have so many tools that come in handy.

 

This spec coupled with vindicator gear is definitely legit.

 

I could go on and on, but basically my experiences echo those of the OP.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Soup

[thewalshinator]

Hey thanks for the video, been following this thread for a while but still havent plucked up the courage to try it out.

 

Just got BM today and played Rage and vengence to death and feel like a change and the vid has convinced me to try! I just hope its enough fun to keep my mind off the drop in DPS, im sure itll work well as my Merc healing mate always wants guard on him so now he will get . Look forward to more videos!

[Errthu]

Watched the video. Good player. Smart using of force push. However damage numbers made me feel sorry for you.

 

I can protect just as well as any immortal jug. Up to 180k protection with healer and 50k-60k very often without any heal. Yes I do not have 2 stuns but it's not like I need it because of 4k smashes in soresu and 5k+ in shi-choo form (on clothies). Where you need 2 stuns I usually need only 1, that's all. Invincible has a 3 mins cd - can live without pressing this button 3 times in single warzone. Sonic barrier is uber crap. Crash is crap. Shield chance is crap. Stacking armor is crap. Whole immortal tree is crap with exception of tier 1 and 2 which you can get in rage spec anyway. And yes, 14/27 is better for carrying ball.

 

Anyway yesterday my friend powertech did 427k damage and 168k prot on Alderaan and he's almost pure shieldtech specced. Also darkness assasins are x2 better than immortal jug in pvp. Because both of these classes can do DAMAGE in their tank specs. And immortal jug has a lowest dps ingame and no burst at all. Seriously try this for a week or so:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cMMZhZGrkbdbMdGR.1

Use soresu all the time, switch to Shi-cho when needed (5k medal, farm game, team needs pure dps).

And I bet you will never go back to Immortal.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Errthu

[Schwarzwald]

Watched the video. Good player. Smart using of force push. However damage numbers made me feel sorry for you.

 

I can protect just as well as any immortal jug. Up to 180k protection with healer and 50k-60k very often without any heal. Yes I do not have 2 stuns but it's not like I need it because of 4k smashes in soresu and 5k+ in shi-choo form (on clothies). Where you need 2 stuns I usually need only 1, that's all. Invincible has a 3 mins cd - can live without pressing this button 3 times in single warzone. Sonic barrier is uber crap. Crash is crap. Shield chance is crap. Stacking armor is crap. Whole immortal tree is crap with exception of tier 1 and 2 which you can get in rage spec anyway. And yes, 14/27 is better for carrying ball.

 

Anyway yesterday my friend powertech did 427k damage and 168k prot on Alderaan and he's almost pure shieldtech specced. Also darkness assasins are x2 better than immortal jug in pvp. Because both of these classes can do DAMAGE in their tank specs. And immortal jug has a lowest dps ingame and no burst at all. Seriously try this for a week or so:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cMMZhZGrkbdbMdGR.1

Use soresu all the time, switch to Shi-cho when needed (5k medal, farm game, team needs pure dps).

And I bet you will never go back to Immortal.

 

 

To be honest, the video is sort of awkward in its nature.

 

The build itself is intended to be a group support build, so the stuns are much more effective when used in group scenarios then just trying to control a target in the duel.

 

And I beg to differ about Immortal's 'weak burst'. If you pay close attention to my rage management in the video, you can probably see that Immortal probably can generate and conserve the most amount of rage out of any other spec. What does this mean? It means rage dumps. And rage dumps = high burst. While other spec's can also benefit from the Rage Free Force Scream on charge, no others can follow up with a force choke -> ravage (dealing damage while filling your rage bar) and then you can procede into dumping the rest of your rage in smashes, crushing blows and vicious slash spam.

 

I don't mean to brag, but I burned down a full BM Jedi Shadow at the same rate I was being DPS'd down (and didn't use any defensive CD's or heals) So I do not agree with your views on the burst of this build.

 

Its not sustained at all like other builds, but if managed properly you can bring the pain when you want to.

 

The damage you get is the about the same as vengeance.

 

I can protect just as well as any immortal jug.

 

Sure you can guard just as well, but if you are any other spec but immortal you are not going to be doing much else while guarding. You are not going to be able to generate max rage with ease. You are not going to be able to survive heavy burst on you and your guard target without invincible. You are not going to be able to stun (to further mitigate damage). The damage differences between the specs are somewhat made up from abilities like heavy handed and sweeping fury. The extra damage on your backhands and smashes do add up over time and the rage generation makes sure you are using every GCD you have, minimizing the use of your regular assault.

 

tl;dr Yeah, you can guard while outside of Immortal, but you have to lower the potential output in your offensive capabilities to do so.

 

Where you need 2 stuns I usually need only 1, that's all

 

What are you talking about, you don't have any stuns that allow you to effectively do anything else. The only stun you do have, force choke, also removes you from the battle when it is used.

 

So lets say you are in a 2v2 situation. You force choke a guy, both of you are removed from the fight during the whole duration of the ability, so for the duration of force choke, it becomes a 1v1. But when you have non-channeled force choke and backhand, there is a different outcome. As immortal, in this 2v2 situation, when you use you Force Choke or backhand you are turning the battle into a 2v1. I don't think you are fully comprehending how POWERFUL that actually is.

 

Crash is crap. Shield chance is crap.

 

Those are not even included in my build, did you even read?

 

Sonic barrier is uber crap.

 

Oh yes, a ~800 Hp shield you get every 12 seconds is crap . Its effectively a 800hp heal when its up. That could be up to a maximum of around 45,000 damage prevented if you keep that thing up constantly. And the 1600-2400 hp that you do gain from it in your average group fight is pretty damn good. Doesn't matter how you look at these fungible numbers, you are mitigating a good percentage of incoming damage over time.

 

Whole immortal tree is crap

 

/yawn

 

Why did I even bother with such a long reply to another player who doesn't really think his position through.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[ReeceLHinze]

Dude, if you don't listen to this poster and try this build out and then cry about how bad Jugg's are... you fail.

[Schwarzwald]

Dude, if you don't listen to this poster and try this build out and then cry about how bad Jugg's are... you fail.

 

Which poster are you referring to?

[Errthu]

And I beg to differ about Immortal's 'weak burst'. If you pay close attention to my rage management in the video, you can probably see that Immortal probably can generate and conserve the most amount of rage out of any other spec. What does this mean? It means rage dumps. And rage dumps = high burst. While other spec's can also benefit from the Rage Free Force Scream on charge, no others can follow up with a force choke -> ravage (dealing damage while filling your rage bar) and then you can procede into dumping the rest of your rage in smashes, crushing blows and vicious slash spam.

 

No. Dumping rage with skills you listed is not a burst. 5k aoe single hit is a burst, especially with 3k force scream next. And Vicious slash is not even worth gcd. Ravage + force choke is on 50 seconds cd, and it's mediocore. Anyway as rage I do not need much rage points. I even dropped enraged sunder for dreadnaught.

 

I don't mean to brag, but I burned down a full BM Jedi Shadow at the same rate I was being DPS'd down (and didn't use any defensive CD's or heals) So I do not agree with your views on the burst of this build.

 

Shadow must be awful then because this class is godly in 1vs1.

 

Sure you can guard just as well, but if you are any other spec but immortal you are not going to be doing much else while guarding.

 

So constantly dropping 4k aoe hits is nothing else?

 

You are not going to be able to generate max rage with ease.

 

I don't need max rage.

 

You are not going to be able to survive heavy burst on you and your guard target without invincible.

 

Tested this, invincible is like -1 death per warzone. Doesn't worth it. Lucky leap will save you more often.

 

You are not going to be able to stun (to further mitigate damage).

 

Leaps, mez, kb are enough. If I die 4 times in warzone instead of 3 I do not care.

 

The damage differences between the specs are somewhat made up from abilities like heavy handed and sweeping fury. The extra damage on your backhands and smashes do add up over time and the rage generation makes sure you are using every GCD you have, minimizing the use of your regular assault.

 

Your rage generation is only force you to dump it with weak skills.

 

tl;dr Yeah, you can guard while outside of Immortal, but you have to lower the potential output in your offensive capabilities to do so.

 

Yes I lower my potential in fulling resolve bars without any harm.

 

What are you talking about, you don't have any stuns that allow you to effectively do anything else. The only stun you do have, force choke, also removes you from the battle when it is used.

 

And what? 3 seconds of immobilize is not gonna lower my damage output. Because my burst is only 2 buttons unlike all your skill rotation.

 

So lets say you are in a 2v2 situation. You force choke a guy, both of you are removed from the fight during the whole duration of the ability, so for the duration of force choke, it becomes a 1v1. But when you have non-channeled force choke and backhand, there is a different outcome. As immortal, in this 2v2 situation, when you use you Force Choke or backhand you are turning the battle into a 2v1. I don't think you are fully comprehending how POWERFUL that actually is.

 

2vs1 with Immortal jug is like 1vs1 anyway.

 

 

Those are not even included in my build, did you even read?

 

Now yes, it's long time ago I saw this thread for the first time.

 

Oh yes, a ~800 Hp shield you get every 12 seconds is crap . Its effectively a 800hp heal when its up. That could be up to a maximum of around 45,000 damage prevented if you keep that thing up constantly. And the 1600-2400 hp that you do gain from it in your average group fight is pretty damn good. Doesn't matter how you look at these fungible numbers, you are mitigating a good percentage of incoming damage over time.

 

800hp.. I can't even stop to smile... 800hp! No skills ingame hit that bad. Ahh yes, perhaps immortal jug's attack moves do.

 

 

Why did I even bother with such a long reply to another player who doesn't really think his position through.

 

30 respecs and valor level 76 gave me enough to think about. There's only 1 usable pvp spec and it's rage. Any kind of unstoppable is nice for huttball though.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Errthu

[ExpLiciTSainT]

No. Dumping rage with skills you listed is not a burst. 5k aoe single hit is a burst, especially with 3k force scream next. And Vicious slash is not even worth gcd. Ravage + force choke is on 50 seconds cd, and it's mediocore. Anyway as rage I do not need much rage points. I even dropped enraged sunder for dreadnaught.

 

 

 

Shadow must be awful then because this class is godly in 1vs1.

 

 

 

So constantly dropping 4k aoe hits is nothing else?

 

 

 

I don't need max rage.

 

 

 

Tested this, invincible is like -1 death per warzone. Doesn't worth it. Lucky leap will save you more often.

 

 

 

Leaps, mez, kb are enough. If I die 4 times in warzone instead of 3 I do not care.

 

 

 

Your rage generation is only force you to dump it with weak skills.

 

 

 

Yes I lower my potential in fulling resolve bars without any harm.

 

 

 

And what? 3 seconds of immobilize is not gonna lower my damage output. Because my burst is only 2 buttons unlike all your skill rotation.

 

 

 

2vs1 with Immortal jug is like 1vs1 anyway.

 

 

 

 

Now yes, it's long time ago I saw this thread for the first time.

 

 

 

800hp.. I can't even stop to smile... 800hp! No skills ingame hit that bad. Ahh yes, perhaps immortal jug's attack moves do.

 

 

 

 

30 respecs and valor level 76 gave me enough to think about. There's only 1 usable pvp spec and it's rage. Any kind of unstoppable is nice for huttball though.

 

 

 

I have pretty much the same spec (Immortal / Vengence) as this for PVP matches. It's only good for Hutt ball and nothing else. I spend a lot of time playing assist, but let's face facts, people doing 500K in damage per warzone are CC'ing more people than I every could.

 

I'm actually upset that Jug tanks cannot take 400k+ in damage per warzone. I've had 1 match where I did 300k with a pocket healer, but the other team had 400+ dps. So, I'm not even soaking up what another player is putting out. Even with my cooldowns activated, with 2 high dps guys on me, I basically melt.

 

i'm about to respec to rage so see how I do, but I do know, tanking as a PVP player really sucks.

Edited March 3, 2012 by ExpLiciTSainT

[Schwarzwald]

If you are not going to take this seriously then you can just move along please.

 

In terms of adding to your health pool, sonic barrier is the best skill that jugs have.

 

800 hp shield every 9 seconds is a lot over a longer period of time, and this is the kind of crap that adds up in longer fights, how easy you make it for the healers on your team.

[ExpLiciTSainT]

If you are not going to take this seriously then you can just move along please.

 

In terms of adding to your health pool, sonic barrier is the best skill that jugs have.

 

800 hp shield every 9 seconds is a lot over a longer period of time, and this is the kind of crap that adds up in longer fights, how easy you make it for the healers on your team.

 

I am taking it seriously, and I have been playing with something extremely close to your spec... it's not great enough to make up for it's losses (if a rage spec jug can hit 300K+ per warzone). - I've never tried rage.

[cerberias]

I personally have the same playstyle as this build but run a 12/29/0 build. From trying out this build it just doesn't seem like I'm doing any sustained pressure damage, long cooldowns on moves mean that while i can bust out some decent damage I'm not doing much in between those cooldowns. I also feel very resource starved comparatively speaking, especially when I'm being ignored. The CC is a nice added benefit but I rarely find myself in a situation on my Guardian feeling like I need more CC - awe, channelled stasis and push are often enough when combined with interrupts.

 

The things you lose in this spec I believe are some of the most important talents we have, damage reduction to self on intervene and force leap providing immunity to CC for 4 seconds. Guardian Leap is amazing for keeping yourself alive, and immunity on force leap provides an amazing way of soaking CC and staying on target. You also gain survivability with this spec - not just from the 20% damage reductions at clutch moments, but 4% flat damage reduction and a 4% health buff provide a nice bit of buffer zone. The 800 shield is nice, but the 4% damage reduction provides survivability when you really need it - to counter burst.

 

The damage is nice in this build but too far between, you hit hard, but its only just higher than 12/29, and its every 15 seconds as opposed to 9 (for the main burst) and it doesn't sync aswell as the vigi alternative. Having the burst every 9 seconds as opposed to either spreading damage or waiting on Guardian Slash will really diminish your potential.

 

Really I just find 12/29 just an all around better spec - assuming your group has classes with CC. Higher damage even if the burst might not be AS impressive, certainly very close though and much more often. Higher survivability assuming you're not just taking low damage, where it doesn't really matter anyway.

[Schwarzwald]

In rated warzones control > dps

 

and rage jugs are really easy to control

Edited March 3, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Errthu]

In rated warzones control > dps

 

and rage jugs are really easy to control

 

Each class in this game have 3-4 ccs. 1 additional stun won't change anything. And against a team full with sorc/sage bubbles and merc healers you are not gonna dps at all.

[Schwarzwald]

Each class in this game have 3-4 ccs. 1 additional stun won't change anything. And against a team full with sorc/sage bubbles and merc healers you are not gonna dps at all.

 

You done?

 

If you are having trouble doing damage with the build, then that sounds like a personal problem. Saying that the spec has no damage is just a flat out lie. Go play it with a group of 4, do it for a couple days then come back to me. If you are still having trouble killing people, then I am sorry, you just arn't cut out for it.

 

Rage isn't the only viable pvp tree and if you seriously think that then perhaps Juggernaut isn't the class for you.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Schwarzwald]

I personally have the same playstyle as this build but run a 12/29/0 build. From trying out this build it just doesn't seem like I'm doing any sustained pressure damage, long cooldowns on moves mean that while i can bust out some decent damage I'm not doing much in between those cooldowns. I also feel very resource starved comparatively speaking, especially when I'm being ignored. The CC is a nice added benefit but I rarely find myself in a situation on my Guardian feeling like I need more CC - awe, channelled stasis and push are often enough when combined with interrupts.

 

The things you lose in this spec I believe are some of the most important talents we have, damage reduction to self on intervene and force leap providing immunity to CC for 4 seconds. Guardian Leap is amazing for keeping yourself alive, and immunity on force leap provides an amazing way of soaking CC and staying on target. You also gain survivability with this spec - not just from the 20% damage reductions at clutch moments, but 4% flat damage reduction and a 4% health buff provide a nice bit of buffer zone. The 800 shield is nice, but the 4% damage reduction provides survivability when you really need it - to counter burst.

 

The damage is nice in this build but too far between, you hit hard, but its only just higher than 12/29, and its every 15 seconds as opposed to 9 (for the main burst) and it doesn't sync aswell as the vigi alternative. Having the burst every 9 seconds as opposed to either spreading damage or waiting on Guardian Slash will really diminish your potential.

 

Really I just find 12/29 just an all around better spec - assuming your group has classes with CC. Higher damage even if the burst might not be AS impressive, certainly very close though and much more often. Higher survivability assuming you're not just taking low damage, where it doesn't really matter anyway.

 

Full immortal does effectively the same damage that vengeance does, but offers those stuns and infinitely better rage generation. The self intercede is nice, but doesn't come close to the benefits of deep immortal.

 

The skillcap in Immo is much greater then the other specs, perhaps this is where others are experience their shortcomings with deep immo.

[cerberias]

No, full immortal does not offer the same dps as a hybrid vengeance build. Guardian Slash (Crushing blow?) hits mildly higher than Overhead Slash (Impale?) but is made up by the dot, and it is on a 15 second cooldown compared to 9. Blade Storm (Force Scream?) is on a 12 second cooldown compared to 9, and has no DoT componant, and has 60% less chance to crit. Force Sweep slightly higher in your build, but it is not free of cost, so is therefore less often used when the damage is needed. In return you get what.. Backhand, which hits less than all three of the above spells.

 

I don't mean to be rude but you're somewhat biased if you believe that your spec does higher damage than a hybrid vigi spec. Also, trying to insinuate that you're more skilled is arrogance at its peak, don't be so stupid as to think you're 'the best'. Especially when there's no form of measure currently.

Edited March 3, 2012 by cerberias

[ReeceLHinze]

Which poster are you referring to?

 

OP is right on the money.

[Schwarzwald]

No, full immortal does not offer the same dps as a hybrid vengeance build. Guardian Slash (Crushing blow?) hits mildly higher than Overhead Slash (Impale?) but is made up by the dot, and it is on a 15 second cooldown compared to 9. Blade Storm (Force Scream?) is on a 12 second cooldown compared to 9, and has no DoT componant, and has 60% less chance to crit. Force Sweep slightly higher in your build, but it is not free of cost, so is therefore less often used when the damage is needed. In return you get what.. Backhand, which hits less than all three of the above spells.

 

I don't mean to be rude but you're somewhat biased if you believe that your spec does higher damage than a hybrid vigi spec. Also, trying to insinuate that you're more skilled is arrogance at its peak, don't be so stupid as to think you're 'the best'. Especially when there's no form of measure currently.

 

In terms of being in combat and in PvP a full immortal will offer the same damage output as a full vengeance with Shatter.

 

If you guys still have not realized this then please do some math in that head of yours.

 

The extra damage from Immortal doesn't come from crushing blow, it comes from the higher amount of rage generated then Vengeance. The higher the rage means the less you will be using assault and using heavier damaging abilities

 

While the large damage is not up front in single hits, you are hitting slightly harder, yet more frequently then vengeance. This is why the damage is comparable.

 

Take the full damage of a force choke and add it into the full damage of a ravage, now combine that number to take place during a 3-4 second period. You simply cannot do that as vengeance. Thats 2 abilities worth of global cooldowns, so in 2 GCD's in the Immortal tree you are looking at upwards of 6-7k dmg. You cannot consistantly do that in Vengeance.

 

Its not about the single hits, its about the burst you can do in rage dumps and proper management of abilities.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[cerberias]

In terms of being in combat and in PvP a full immortal will offer the same damage output as a full vengeance with Shatter.

 

Well, firstly, i said 12/29. Please actually read what I'm writing before you make up crap. Shatter is too much rage for a full vengeance spec to deal with, in Soresu form. Secondly, the rage generated by your spec is only a decent amount if you include the rage cost reduction from Revenge, something that only happens if you're being focused, and even less so since you have DPS gear and hence low defence/shield chance.

 

While the large damage is not up front in single hits, you are hitting slightly harder, yet more frequently then vengeance. This is why the damage is comparable.

 

How so? I have lower cooldowns than you, less rage usage (assuming I'm not being hit) and comparable/higher damage on my abilities once you factor in the DoTs/extra crit chances.

 

Take the full damage of a force choke and add it into the full damage of a ravage, now combine that number to take place during a 3-4 second period.

 

It takes 4.5 seconds for that entire combo to go off, and if it gets broken you lose the force choke damage and the last tick of Ravage (the big one). You can also have ravage interrupted and have no mobility during that time assuming you want the damage to go off.

 

You simply cannot do that as vengeance. Thats 2 abilities worth of global cooldowns, so in 2 GCD's in the Immortal tree you are looking at upwards of 6-7k dmg. You cannot consistantly do that in Vengeance.

 

Once again, 4.5 seconds is 3 GCD's. Claiming that we don't know our math then making kindergarten level mistakes is not helping your case. Also, this is including crits and not factoring in any CC taken or enemies breaking your CC. Also, since you don't have 2 piece the defence gear you don't have the 4 second stun on Choke, this means that a switched on enemy can get out of your last hit of ravage by either running away, pushing you back or interrupting you.

 

Sure, your rage dump is comparable, but it hits LESS OFTEN. You can do a nice chunk of burst (as can I) but your overall pressure damage is much lower. This game I rarely see people going down to burst if the enemy team has a switched on tank, and I find that constant pressure damage and interrupts forces the enemy to use more resources to catch back up or they lose too much time to keep everyone up and people start dropping. You have much lower pressure damage, due to higher cooldowns.

 

Its not about the single hits, its about the burst you can do in rage dumps and proper management of abilities.

 

I can do better burst than you, and with lower downtimes in between. Don't talk ****.

 

If you guys still have not realized this then please do some math in that head of yours.

 

The math shows quite easily that the burst is similar, and the sustained damage of 12/29 is higher. It also shows the survivability of 12/29 is higher, and that the 12/29 is less affected by enemy CC. You have more CC, by one 4 second stun on a 60 second cooldown. Hardly a huge amount more versatility, and I have a lower cooldown on my AoE Mezz.

 

Impale with talent does higher damage than a Crushing Blow and equal damage with full sunders stacked. It also has a 9 second cooldown compared to your 15.

 

My Force Scream does more damage than yours, by a LOT. 300 extra damage on a dot, and 60% more chance to crit. I also have a 9 second cooldown compared to your 12.

 

Your Smash does 15% higher damage than mine, with the same cooldown. Except mine is free all the time, yours isnt.

 

My Ravage hits just as hard as yours, except I have to wait for someone else to CC it beforehand - easy in a premade on the burst target - they should be stunned either way, and its not like any other class is short on CC.

 

You get instacast Force Choke which gives you a whole one extra GCD to do something in - nothing special.

 

You get hilt strike, melee range 4 sec stun on a 60 second cooldown. Pretty much every class has one of these on a lower or equal cooldown as standard.

 

If you burst literally every thing you have onto a target already affected by 5 stacks of sunder, by the time your single rotation is up, my abilities have already cooled down and I'm going into my second burst rotation. Infact, if your enemy lives through your second round of Crushing blow etc.. you'll be waiting a lot longer for your next burst damage - whereas I can keep pumping it out a lot more often.

Edited March 4, 2012 by cerberias

[Schwarzwald]

Well, firstly, i said 12/29. Please actually read what I'm writing before you make up crap. Shatter is too much rage for a full vengeance spec to deal with, in Soresu form. Secondly, the rage generated by your spec is only a decent amount if you include the rage cost reduction from Revenge, something that only happens if you're being focused, and even less so since you have DPS gear and hence low defence/shield chance.

 

 

 

How so? I have lower cooldowns than you, less rage usage (assuming I'm not being hit) and comparable/higher damage on my abilities once you factor in the DoTs/extra crit chances.

 

 

 

It takes 4.5 seconds for that entire combo to go off, and if it gets broken you lose the force choke damage and the last tick of Ravage (the big one). You can also have ravage interrupted and have no mobility during that time assuming you want the damage to go off.

 

 

 

Once again, 4.5 seconds is 3 GCD's. Claiming that we don't know our math then making kindergarten level mistakes is not helping your case. Also, this is including crits and not factoring in any CC taken or enemies breaking your CC. Also, since you don't have 2 piece the defence gear you don't have the 4 second stun on Choke, this means that a switched on enemy can get out of your last hit of ravage by either running away, pushing you back or interrupting you.

 

Sure, your rage dump is comparable, but it hits LESS OFTEN. You can do a nice chunk of burst (as can I) but your overall pressure damage is much lower. This game I rarely see people going down to burst if the enemy team has a switched on tank, and I find that constant pressure damage and interrupts forces the enemy to use more resources to catch back up or they lose too much time to keep everyone up and people start dropping. You have much lower pressure damage, due to higher cooldowns.

 

 

 

I can do better burst than you, and with lower downtimes in between. Don't talk ****.

 

 

 

The math shows quite easily that the burst is similar, and the sustained damage of 12/29 is higher. It also shows the survivability of 12/29 is higher, and that the 12/29 is less affected by enemy CC. You have more CC, by one 4 second stun on a 60 second cooldown. Hardly a huge amount more versatility, and I have a lower cooldown on my AoE Mezz.

 

Impale with talent does higher damage than a Crushing Blow and equal damage with full sunders stacked. It also has a 9 second cooldown compared to your 15.

 

My Force Scream does more damage than yours, by a LOT. 300 extra damage on a dot, and 60% more chance to crit. I also have a 9 second cooldown compared to your 12.

 

Your Smash does 15% higher damage than mine, with the same cooldown. Except mine is free all the time, yours isnt.

 

My Ravage hits just as hard as yours, except I have to wait for someone else to CC it beforehand - easy in a premade on the burst target - they should be stunned either way, and its not like any other class is short on CC.

 

You get instacast Force Choke which gives you a whole one extra GCD to do something in - nothing special.

 

You get hilt strike, melee range 4 sec stun on a 60 second cooldown. Pretty much every class has one of these on a lower or equal cooldown as standard.

 

If you burst literally every thing you have onto a target already affected by 5 stacks of sunder, by the time your single rotation is up, my abilities have already cooled down and I'm going into my second burst rotation. Infact, if your enemy lives through your second round of Crushing blow etc.. you'll be waiting a lot longer for your next burst damage - whereas I can keep pumping it out a lot more often.

 

I said full Vengeance as a comparison to what Immortal DPS can do when properly played out.

 

I know what your spec was, if you used some critical thinking, it should have been clear that since full Immo does about as much as full Venge, then that means that Full immo would do even more then a non full Veng.

 

Ravage is only a 3 second channel, and the force choke duration is longer then the 4.5 seconds. So again, you have shown your ability to absolutely fail at math. I was talking about the 3 second period in which you start to Ravage while the force choke is active, which is 3 seconds channeled.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/FivnSJ/ravage

 

Can you derp any harder?

 

Impale does not do higher damage then crushing blow, the only time that Impale does hit harder then Crushing Blow is when you have stacks of Pooled Hatred, but you rarely ever get up to the amount of stacks you would need to get to surpass Crushing blow. So again, you are wrong here. Over a period of time, Crushing blow WILL do more damage then Impale will.

 

 

Also, since you don't have 2 piece the defence gear you don't have the 4 second stun on Choke, this means that a switched on enemy can get out of your last hit of ravage by either running away, pushing you back or interrupting you.

 

Another point in where you don't know what you are talking about. There is no possible way to run far enough away to dodge the last hit of Ravage if they get hit by force choke, and blowing an interrupt on a warrior is one hell of a wasted interrupt.

 

You get instacast Force Choke which gives you a whole one extra GCD to do something in - nothing special.

 

Or I can interrupt, taunt or use any one of my instant cast abilities that do not use a GCD. L2P please. Or I can keep running with the ball. Or I can do it to a guy while he is in the fire or in the acid.

 

 

You get hilt strike, melee range 4 sec stun on a 60 second cooldown. Pretty much every class has one of these on a lower or equal cooldown as standard.

 

Every class except for other warriors who are not immortal. Cry some more please. No other class can have the ability to lock someone out of casting for 6-8 GCD's like an immortal jug can. Assuming that there is no resolve built up on a healer you can do the following with any sort of variation and completely screw them over. Charge -> Interrupt -> Force Push -> Charge -> Backhand -> Interrupt. Oh btw, you are also damaging the healer the entire time as well, and if things go right, then the resolve will go away from your first force push and you could even follow up with a backhand.

 

Okay, I'm done addressing these garbage replies.

 

tl;dr Going Full Immo has a higher Skill Cap then vengeance to play effectively. Soresu Vengeance is mediocre and lack luster rage generation compared to a player who effectively knows how to manage his rage and cooldowns while in Immortal.

 

And if you don't believe that different skill caps in the game then compare the difficulties of playing a Tracer Spammer to a Sniper or a Madness/Lightning Sorc to playing a maraduer with theirrotations.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Paralassa
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[cerberias]

Ravage is only a 3 second channel, and the force choke duration is longer then the 4.5 seconds. So again, you have shown your ability to absolutely fail at math. I was talking about the 3 second period in which you start to Ravage while the force choke is active, which is 3 seconds channeled.

 

Tooltips would like to have a word with you. Or do you not know how long the GCD is either?

 

http://db.darthhater.com/abilities/class_abilities/sith_warrior/ <-- Force choke, 3 second channel. One fail.

 

Impale does not do higher damage then crushing blow, the only time that Impale does hit harder then Crushing Blow is when you have stacks of Pooled Hatred, but you rarely ever get up to the amount of stacks you would need to get to surpass Crushing blow. So again, you are wrong here. Over a period of time, Crushing blow WILL do more damage then Impale will.

 

Tooltips would like to have a word with you.

 

Overhead Slash - 1499-1729 with 388 DoT. Or, essentially, 1887-2117.

 

Guardian Slash - 1514-1736 or 1893-2171.

 

Without 5 sunders, overhead hits harder by about 350. With 5 sunders Guardian hits harder by about 30. Except Overhead has a 9 second cooldown, Guardian has a 15 second cooldown. Second fail.

 

Another point in where you don't know what you are talking about. There is no possible way to run far enough away to dodge the last hit of Ravage if they get hit by force choke, and blowing an interrupt on a warrior is one hell of a wasted interrupt.

 

Choke without set bonus runs out 1.5 seconds before the last tick of ravage, easily enough time to interrupt or run out of range. A scoundrel/Sage would stop around 1400-2k damage by interrupting that last tick. Basically just healed them self by interrupting you.

 

No other class can have the ability to lock someone out of casting for 6-8 GCD's like an immortal jug can.

 

Assassins, Vanguards, Sorcs, Snipers. They'd all like to disagree. Especially vanguards with 6 second cooldown interrupt. Also, you're assumign that your target doesn't have their CC break up. Also, blowing your full load on one person, if you dont get that kill you've got no more CC for 50 seconds.

 

tl;dr Going Full Immo has a higher Skill Cap then vengeance to play effectively. Soresu Vengeance is mediocre and lack luster rage generation compared to a player who effectively knows how to manage his rage and cooldowns while in Immortal.

 

You're an idiot, I'm actually starting to believe you're a troll with your retarded logic and assumptions based on fallacy. You lack even simple reading skills, can't even read freaking tooltips. It's like you're sitting there shouting LALALALA to and covering your eyes so you're blind to the evidence that you're straight up wrong. You keep trying to say how skilled you are, post some evidence apart from trying to say how skilled you are when you cant even read properly.

 

And if you don't believe that different skill caps in the game then compare the difficulties of playing a Tracer Spammer to a Sniper or a Madness/Lightning Sorc to playing a maraduer with their retarded rotations.

 

Oh I understand theres different skill capps in the game, and I know that Immortal takes more skill than my spec. Heres the kicker, at the same level of skill, Immortal is less damage, less survivability, and only slightly more versatility than 12/29. It's shown on the tooltips and in the talent tree, and plays out in the game. Hell, I tried this spec for about 50+ warzones, it straight up failed comparatively speaking. Sure, I can lock down one player for a bit fairly well, but if they survive that lockdown period, the damage doesnt come through to pressure them in the long term, or they can just CC me just as easily.

 

From your initial post:

In a Rage build you can burn your whole Force Crush -> obliterate -> force scream -> force push -> charge -> Smash rotation and still have a healer standing with enough health to get off a full heal, and after all your primary abilities are on CD or you are low on rage w/ no options to generate it, then you are dead in the water.

 

Thats not the rage build rotation, no wonder you think its crap, you're too bad to use a real rotation! Charge -> Crush -> Smash -> Choke -> oblit -> Smash -> Filler -> Crush -> Charge -> Smash. Screams as allowing. You can get off three Smashes within 22 seconds, every 50 seconds, with zero rage problems.

Edited March 4, 2012 by cerberias

[Arkhonos]

Okay, I'm done addressing these garbage replies.

 

As a bystander, I felt that he wasn't giving you "garbage" replies, but rather valid points and ideas. You seem very attached to Immortal, and unwilling to listen to other ideas, too. I run with the same exact build as yours. I have Vindicator gear. However, I do not in any way believe that this spec is, on the same skill level, able to do the same amount of sustained DPS as Vengeance. If you take the time to use it with an open mind, you'll see that, too. And, that's OK. Because Immortal is more about having defensive options. Vengeance also undoubtedly has the best PvP defensive talent in Unstoppable because of the abundance of CC. I really wish that Immortal got it, because it just flat out rocks. Given a certain set of circumstances, Vengeance has more survivability than Immortal. And you know what? Immortal, given a different set of circumstances, has more survivability than Vengeance. Immortal's survivability is definitely more constant. You can depend on it more.

 

In the end, there is probably a less than 10K damage reduction the full Immortal set has over the hybrid per warzone. In the end, Vengeance probably does about 10K more damage than Immortal per warzone. Is one inherently more useful in a warzone? It depends on the situation, and that is true for every single spec in the game.

 

You argue as if anything other than your spec is wrong, and that is certainly not the case. Honestly, what matters most of all is your knowledge of the class as a whole, and your ability to play to the Juggernaut's strengths. Small amounts of differences are no reason to be so hostile. I prefer the play style of the Immortal Juggernaut. Other people prefer the play style of the Hybrid. They have advantages, they have disadvantages. In the end they amount to very similar things, despite your distaste for Vengeance.

 

Thank you for posting this one option of a spec, and for outlining how to play it in this thread. It is very helpful for beginners, and useful as a resource for Immortal Juggs. However, a more accepting and reasonable tone would be appreciated, at least in my humble opinion.

[Lacedemon]

cerberias, where possible as Rage you Crush and then charge so as to maximise your smash damage with the 4 set PvP bonus

[Dracosz]

No offense OP, but I'm utterly baffled by your continued insistence that you have BETTER damage than a pure dps vengeance spec and that pooled hatred stacks NEVER build.

 

As a juggernaut that's played all 3 specs, I can tell you now that nearly every class you get into melee with will apply SOME sort of snare onto you. Secondly, you purport that rage generation in SORESU is higher than a vengeance player? I... don't even know what to say.

 

You make valid points about locking players out but the thing is, you don't really take into account the fact that there are classes that are far better than juggernauts at doing the same thing. Yes, they are squishier, but if you're going to be running that way you might as well just run in full tank and guard someone.

 

As someone that has PLAYED this spec and other specs in fully optimized Battlemaster gear (with orange modded belts/bracers) and with GOOD players (and I consider myself damn good too) , I can tell you now that your damage will be considerably lower. Prepatch it was possible to have very high burst damage due to surge, now it barely scratches my back as vengeance with regards to overall damage. Even in group play, it simply overlaps with roles that other classes perform better.

[coldserpent]

No offense OP, but I'm utterly baffled by your continued insistence that you have BETTER damage than a pure dps vengeance spec and that pooled hatred stacks NEVER build.

 

As a juggernaut that's played all 3 specs, I can tell you now that nearly every class you get into melee with will apply SOME sort of snare onto you. Secondly, you purport that rage generation in SORESU is higher than a vengeance player? I... don't even know what to say.

 

You make valid points about locking players out but the thing is, you don't really take into account the fact that there are classes that are far better than juggernauts at doing the same thing. Yes, they are squishier, but if you're going to be running that way you might as well just run in full tank and guard someone.

 

As someone that has PLAYED this spec and other specs in fully optimized Battlemaster gear (with orange modded belts/bracers) and with GOOD players (and I consider myself damn good too) , I can tell you now that your damage will be considerably lower. Prepatch it was possible to have very high burst damage due to surge, now it barely scratches my back as vengeance with regards to overall damage. Even in group play, it simply overlaps with roles that other classes perform better.

 

I agree, Dracosz. And despite OP's vehement and supra-clingy beliefs, it won't step ahead of Vengeance in damage unless said Vengeance player is horribly undergeared, due to worse ability downtimes.