Warracks Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 For those that think its a bad stat.. It offers an alternate means of progression for those that do not want to raid/do operations Expertise should maintain a balance between HM operations gear and the best PvP gear. If expertise were to be eliminated, all the high end guilds that are doing HM operations are going to destroy all the "casuals" that enjoy PvP. At least everyone that PvP's is able to spend the time and gain this gear and become more and more competitive. People rolling with premades can do this faster than the PUG's rightfully so. And its an even playing field for all. Raiders hopefully wont have a huge gear advantage that gives them a huge "skill" edge. IMO the best gear for PvP should come from doing PvP. The only way to add progression to PvP is to maybe add a ranking system and valor. I think adding some expertise to lower level gear would have been better that making a 50's only bracket. This would mitigate that some of the damage they take versus geared 50's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rakhabit Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Yes, adding expertise gear for lower levels would have been the optimal solution here. Segregating the level 50's only solved the problem on the highest populated servers. The lvl 50 players on mid/low pop servers really got screwed by this patch. On Crevasse City I don't think a warzone has yet popped for the lvl50 queue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demogorgon Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 50 only bracket is good. Expertise - well, idea is right, but as soon you hit 50, you'll stuck with gear wall. Solution - purchasable lvl 50 basic PvP sets (Blue with expertise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 For those that think its a bad stat.. It offers an alternate means of progression for those that do not want to raid/do operations Expertise should maintain a balance between HM operations gear and the best PvP gear. If expertise were to be eliminated, all the high end guilds that are doing HM operations are going to destroy all the "casuals" that enjoy PvP. At least everyone that PvP's is able to spend the time and gain this gear and become more and more competitive. People rolling with premades can do this faster than the PUG's rightfully so. And its an even playing field for all. Raiders hopefully wont have a huge gear advantage that gives them a huge "skill" edge. IMO the best gear for PvP should come from doing PvP. The only way to add progression to PvP is to maybe add a ranking system and valor. I think adding some expertise to lower level gear would have been better that making a 50's only bracket. This would mitigate that some of the damage they take versus geared 50's. Any system that has progression is NOT PvP. What we have in SWTOR (and in most other MMOs) is not PvP, it is CvC (Character versus Character). It is little more than a glorified PvE where you kill other characters instead of mobs. Real PvP exists when all characters are completely equal. Levels are gone, stats are gone, all that exists is your ability bar and your personal knowledge of when to use each ability to strike or counter your opponent. Since MMOs are played by PvE people, they want their competitive play to be the exact same thing as their non-competitive play, which is always going to be completely broken and unbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokz Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Resilience killed WoW pvp Expertise is killing SWTOR's pvp just makes everything into a grind. theres no pvp to have fun or control anything. its just a straight up gear grind to be on par with everyone else. BG's and WZ's are just a grind wheel fueled by greed for these pvp stats. Pre CU SWG didnt have a pvp stat Vanilla WoW didnt have a pvp stat pretty sure DAoC didnt have a pvp stat I had a lot of experience in the first two and enjoyed the pvp (I just heard the epic tales of DAoC pvp.) PVP just seems to go downhill quick with these stats. The ranks are cool but the stat.....eh.....if i wanted to run WZ's all day i wouldnt of quit wow 2 years ago. Edited January 19, 2012 by Tokz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KangasCollective Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Next request will be bracketed 50s by expertise level. How do you think that will go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rakhabit Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Vanilla WoW didnt have a pvp stat Instead Vanilla WoW had raiders stomping everyone else. Resilience was necessary to prevent that, and was a good idea. However, tying resilience gear to arena rating after Season 2 ruined it. PVP just seems to go downhill quick with these stats. The ranks are cool but the stat.....eh.....if i wanted to run WZ's all day i wouldnt of quit wow 2 years ago. The idea of the stat itself isn't what ruins PVP, it's always the implementation. It needs to be available easily and quickly to every PVPer, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokz Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Next request will be bracketed 50s by expertise level. How do you think that will go? terrible lol queues would become astronomically long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haffoc Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Instead Vanilla WoW had raiders stomping everyone else. Resilience was necessary to prevent that, and was a good idea. However, tying resilience gear to arena rating after Season 2 ruined it. That is utter crap, all that was needed to stop raiders stomping was equivalent gear earned through PVP, not a new stat. These stats do more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Instead Vanilla WoW had raiders stomping everyone else. Resilience was necessary to prevent that, and was a good idea. However, tying resilience gear to arena rating after Season 2 ruined it. The idea of the stat itself isn't what ruins PVP, it's always the implementation. It needs to be available easily and quickly to every PVPer, that's all. Actually, adding more PvE to the CvC was the opposite of what they should have done. The idea that adding an additional PvE element to PvP will magically make PvP more balanced is completely ludicrous. The only way to balance PvP is to remove ALL of the PvE from it. Your action bar versus their action bar... may the best usage of skills win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srolo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The only thing that has me worried about expertise is what happens when they add new tier PvP sets...will the expertise rating be the same or will it eventually climb to a 15-20% bonus over players without the set? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rakhabit Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 That is utter crap, all that was needed to stop raiders stomping was equivalent gear earned through PVP, not a new stat. These stats do more harm than good. I agree with you on that actually, but then all the raiders get butt hurt about others getting equivalent gear from what they see as something requiring less effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rakhabit Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Your action bar versus their action bar... may the best usage of skills win. You should play Bloodline Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatNeechi Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 "Would of" "Could of" Who taught these people English? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choatley Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) The expertise creates issues at 50 as well. People without expertise at 50 are fairly underpowered in 50 brackets and people know it. I noticed several games last night where geared people dropped out of the Warzones as they started, presumably because other 50s on the team were ungeared. It was easy to watch people turn and take a look at the other members on the team and then fade out of the zone. This happened in every single match I got in to over a 4 hour period. Where does that leave those of us that stick around? What motivation is there to play with new 50s? People quitting on new 50s at the start, leaves the teams shorthanded to start and sure to get stomped. What's the point of fighting only when the teams are stacked in your favor? What is there to prove? At the very least, there should've been a level of expertise on the previous tier PVP reward gear if this route was to be taken. If that wasn't going to happen, expertise shouldn't exist, because it's creating a large divide in the population. New 50s must sit and get bags through Ilum's dailies, because they sure won't get them in Warzones until there is a severe penalty for the Right Click - Leave Warzone issue. If someone chooses to leave a Warzone, please lock them out for a couple of hours so that those of us who don't leave aren't further penalized for not leaving. I agree that new people to PVP shouldn't be on a level playing field with old 50s, but quitting on them from the start of a match penalizes those of us who don't quit. Edited January 19, 2012 by Choatley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rakhabit Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The expertise creates issues at 50 as well. People without expertise at 50 are fairly underpowered in 50 brackets and people know it. I noticed several games last night where geared people dropped out of the Warzones as they started, presumably because other 50s on the team were ungeared. It was easy to watch people turn and take a look at the other members on the team and then fade out of the zone. This happened in every single match I got in to over a 4 hour period. Where does that leave those of us that stick around? What motivation is there to play with new 50s? People quitting on new 50s at the start, leaves the teams shorthanded to start and sure to get stomped. What's the point of fighting only when the teams are stacked in your favor? What is there to prove? At the very least, there should've been a level of expertise on the previous tier PVP reward gear if this route was to be taken. If that wasn't going to happen, expertise shouldn't exist, because it's creating a large divide in the population. New 50s must sit and get bags through Ilum's dailies, because they sure won't get them in Warzones until there is a severe penalty for the Right Click - Leave Warzone issue. If someone chooses to leave a Warzone, please lock them out for a couple of hours so that those of us who don't leave aren't further penalized for not leaving. Exactly why they shouldn't have removed the blue expertise starter set from vendors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirin Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Actually, adding more PvE to the CvC was the opposite of what they should have done. The idea that adding an additional PvE element to PvP will magically make PvP more balanced is completely ludicrous. The only way to balance PvP is to remove ALL of the PvE from it. Your action bar versus their action bar... may the best usage of skills win. This = intelligent. I'd be fine with warzones removing gear stats entirely. Bolster is already supposed to make it an even playing field, so why not ACTUALLY make it a level playing field? That way, everyone's chance to gain valor is based only on their skill, not how fast they got to 50 and started grinding warzones. For those that want dominate with gear, there is always open world PvP, where raiders should dominate because they've cleared the most content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunali Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think the better solution would have been to make a PvE stat and have no gear progression for PvP. PvP should be about player skill and gear choice (meaning which stats they favor while gearing) rather than about who's done more PvP and who has better luck with drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kholvan Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Any system that has progression is NOT PvP. What we have in SWTOR (and in most other MMOs) is not PvP, it is CvC (Character versus Character). It is little more than a glorified PvE where you kill other characters instead of mobs. Character is what RPGs are supposed to be about. It's kind of the definition of the genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borkbork Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) We need it to filter out the guys that got head start and therefore I win gear. Makes the game hell of a lot more fun Edited January 19, 2012 by borkbork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsAlpha Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Any type of expertise is a crutch for players. Expertise is the reason they implemented the level 50 bracket. Sans expertise, all you're left with is skill, knowing what to use and when to use it. Having good communication with your team goes a long way towards mitigating the need for expertise. A full set of Champion gear would give someone around, correct me if I'm wrong, a 10% boost to A.) Damage B.) Damage Reduction C.) Healing, this is necessary how? I only see people on these forums complaining about what they didn't get in their champion bags. This has turned into a heavily gear based game where people only do WZ's to get their gear. For most it's become a huge grindfest where people have resulted to AFK'ing just to get their valor. As for your comments, there currently is a balance between PVE (Rakata, Tionese, and Columi) gear, and PvP (Battlemaster, Champion, and Centurion) gear. The expertise bonus gives you nothing in PvE, nor should it as you're not engaging in combat versus another player. The high end guilds, as you put it, that are doing HM operations, are not doing PVP, at least not as fanatically as a gear obsessed, fresh 50. The expertise rating is, in my opinion, useless once you have a full Rakata set. The increase in your base skill alone (Cunning, Strength, Willpower, Aim) is enough to increase everything. But! Getting that gear is difficult, thus "hard mode." Not everyone has it, and not everyone will have it. As someone who stated before me said, any system that has progression is NOT PvP. Something I wholeheartedly agree with. After playing a number of MMO's I don't really think there is any need whatsoever to have gear specifically designed for PvP. There should simply be gear. The better stuff coming from crafting (to bolster the economy, let's face it, synthweaving and armormech are useless right now), raids, etc... You cannot possibly disagree with me that this is just a grindfest, people od it because they want the gear, not because they think the PvP in ToR is fun. Have you read the forums? I'll admit it, I did the same thing. My guild and I have been PvP'ing nonstop to get everyone in our guild Battlemaster gear, not because it's necessary, but because it's the next step, it's progressive, something it should not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flem Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 This = intelligent. I'd be fine with warzones removing gear stats entirely. Bolster is already supposed to make it an even playing field, so why not ACTUALLY make it a level playing field? That way, everyone's chance to gain valor is based only on their skill, not how fast they got to 50 and started grinding warzones. Correct. The 10-49 system *actually works* and is *fun*. De-bolster epic 50 gear, end the stupid un-fun idea of "progression" in a skill-based game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evuke Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 50 only bracket is good. Expertise - well, idea is right, but as soon you hit 50, you'll stuck with gear wall. Solution - purchasable lvl 50 basic PvP sets (Blue with expertise). they had those in game, the geniuses at bw removed them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davetrump Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) For those that think its a bad stat.. It's a bad stat in that PVP gear is flat our inferior to PVE gear. In PVP it's PVP and PVE gear are about the same some pieces are better, some are worse. You pay for expertise with other stats, often your primary stat. The gain from expertise often doesnt make up for the loss of that primary stat. In PVE it's PVP gear is just worse than PVE gear in all instances. Why not give all the tier gear the same stats and make the set bonuses PVP or PVE specific? Edited January 19, 2012 by davetrump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Philar Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Character is what RPGs are supposed to be about. It's kind of the definition of the genre. It's a trap! PvP is not an RPG. It can't be because you are right, RPGs are about the Character while PvP is about the Player. The problem is that most people (including developers) fall for the trap and try to implement PvP within the RPG structure of the game. What smart people would be doing is recognizing that the two concepts (PvP and RPG) are completely incompatible and would develop a functional sub-game (game within the game) that strips the RPG elements from PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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