BioWare: Here is what caused the faction imabalance and here is how you fix it.

[Magnesium]

They really should have had 3 factions to align with, that would have helped to resolve complete faction imbalance.

[HyperThomas]

Good thread,

Buff is not the answer,

Limiting amount of 1 faction on any world/shard is.

[sydh]

If the Republic (or the Sith) are outnumbered by 100% or more in server population, or at least population on that world, they need to receive a buff that lets them compete. If there are 90 people on Ilum and 60 of them are Sith then the Republic classes need to be able to handle themselves literally in 2:1 encounters.

 

This can be done with a buff that is adjusted based on population numbers for that planet (and instance of that planet)

 

^ This needs to be done. This is probably one of the best ways to solve the faction imbalance in my opinion.

[Soulaufein]

much like every MMO, the "Bad Guy" is always overpopulated.

 

WRONG. In WoW vanilla, Horde was so underpopulated it wasnt even funny. Get your facts straight.

 

People started flocking to the Horde quite later on. The beginning of the change happened when people realized that Will of the Forsaken was by far the most imba racial around.

[Cylide]

You forgot that the Jedi have absolutely lame companions. The Consular especially. I got all my comps with JK and JC and the only one I really like Kira. Every other companion is boring³.

I read through the Sith Warrior's companions and apparently they even got one companion that adjusts to their alignment and they got 4 possible romances. So, yeah..

 

Another thing is the awesome posh accent the empire has.

 

 

But oh well, like one of the dudes above said, I chose Jedi since I knew I was going to play that game and I'll stick to it no matter the odds.

[Dashall]

Same for Force Users vrs say, Troopers. Troopers are always shown as needing groups of them to take on a single Jedi. Jedi are shown as dispatching non force users with a wave of their hand.

[aleiro]

Kira had it right

 

"All the fashion designers went over to the sith"

 

Other than that, Buff might work, except if that If you give a side 40% more damage it means 3 players can one-shot people in one stunlock. And then let the whining begin. Maybe a way to begin balance is by staying toghether as a community. All players in a server make a stand and the outnumbered side does not go to Ilum for one full week or more. Then the rest of the server will understand. And maybe we will begin to have some balance.

 

Also let the players that join the outnumbered faction have an XP bolster so they don't have to take as long getting to lvl 50. Let them also have, according to the creation date of their chars, a valor boost say for the first 2 weeks after they hit 50. Maybe then maybe we will start to see more people joining the outnumbered faction.

 

If Bioware has stats for server population and empire in fact outnumbers republic in all or most servers, make a trailer where you make the republic seem as cool as the empire, let everyone know that you will be bolstered through your journey to 50.

 

The fact remains that the game is so new, if they bolster XP gain, then people will have the chance to go through a whole storyline really fast and may end up having what was suposed to be 1000 hours of gameplay reduced to 500 hours or less. Tempting more people to leave the game early, before they expected.

 

IT's all a risk, if the popuation balance is not fixed the result will be that a lot of subscriptions will be canceled due to overwhelming huttball disease. If they bolster leveling there is a risk of people leaving due to the game not having long enough content. In any case both scenarios present a loss of customers. However i think that more people will leave if the population balance is not fixed, since more end-game content can and is being created. the fact that "leveling content" is not as long would not be such an important factor in people leaving the game.

Edited January 19, 2012 by aleiro

[Thiussat]

It could also be because Bioware shows favoritism to empire when it comes to gameplay.

 

much like every MMO, the "Bad Guy" is always overpopulated.

 

This^ I don't have a lot of MMO experience, but when I played Rift, the Defiants (bad guys and the faction i played) outnumbered the Guardians (good guys) by at least 3:1. On some servers it was 10:1 at least.

 

However, in that game, the Guardians were MUCH better PvP'ers on average and stuck together very well. It wasn't uncommon to see Guardian guilds with 5 people wipe a 20 man defiant raid. One such guild leader was Taugrim. He had a small guild that roflstomped much larger defiant raids routinely (I assume PvP'ers know who Taugrim is -- he is a long time MMO vet that does a lot of Youtubing, etc.l). I also think Swifty had a guardian toon as well.

 

So, when I signed up for this game, I figured that no doubt the Republic would probably attract the better players since the better players LIKE being outnumbered. So I rolled Republic. Also, since Republic is outnumbered, it means insta-queues which means they SHOULD gear up faster. But I was wrong. It seems the empire has more 50's and more BM's. This is obviously exacerbated by the recent Ilum exploit.

 

I can't really talk about skill since there ARE some very skilled Republic players, but it seems that the empire has their share as well. Empire may have more bads on average, but there are many more of them numbers wise which means you will see more skilled players more often. On the Republic side, at least on my server, if you aren't lucky enough to have the same 5 or 6 good players on your team each match, you typically lose (often stomped).

 

As for favoritism, Trion showed huge favoritism towards the Guardians (good side) in Rift. So maybe that has something to do with it. Ultimately it just comes down to the fact that most people like playing the bad guy in fantasy games since they can't IRL.

[jkennaly]

First, this is my first MMO, so I have no experience with the genre in general.

 

But I see this problem in maybe slightly different terms.

 

Almost every possible "solution" I see to this problem seems to be based on directly nerfing the overpopulated faction or buffing the underpopulated faction. Or using server tricks to create a "fair" fight through instancing.

 

I have not quite finished leveling to 50, but it seems pretty clear to me that the only real issue here is the imbalance at Ilum, and the only real reason even that is an issue is it is not fun for either side.

 

So instead of lame mechanics like turning the underpopulated faction into minibosses, what if a faction-wide mechanic was added that encouraged the undepropluated faction to go to Ilum, and encouraged the underpopulated faction to do something else?

 

I'm thinking something like this:

 

The ratio of Empire:Republic is sampled every 10 sec. The average ratio is then calculated for the trailing 24 hours. Based on this T24H ratio, if it it varies by more than say 2:1 or 1.5:1 or whatever, the high pop faction gets increased XP (only helps non-level 50 characters, encouraging people to play alts) and decreased valor rewards on Ilum. Maybe even increased WZ valor rewards.

 

Meanwhile, the low pop faction gets increased valor rewards on Ilum, and decreased valor rewards in WZ, to drive action.

[ComeAndSee]

Even Tenacity in WoW didn't help.

[aleiro]

I disagree, how was the favoritism, both sides in Rift had same classes, same specs. Maybe a battleground the objective may have been closer to the other side but that hardly makes a huge difference. And they fixed it really fast.

[aleiro]

First, this is my first MMO, so I have no experience with the genre in general.

 

But I see this problem in maybe slightly different terms.

 

Almost every possible "solution" I see to this problem seems to be based on directly nerfing the overpopulated faction or buffing the underpopulated faction. Or using server tricks to create a "fair" fight through instancing.

 

I have not quite finished leveling to 50, but it seems pretty clear to me that the only real issue here is the imbalance at Ilum, and the only real reason even that is an issue is it is not fun for either side.

 

So instead of lame mechanics like turning the underpopulated faction into minibosses, what if a faction-wide mechanic was added that encouraged the undepropluated faction to go to Ilum, and encouraged the underpopulated faction to do something else?

 

I'm thinking something like this:

 

The ratio of Empire:Republic is sampled every 10 sec. The average ratio is then calculated for the trailing 24 hours. Based on this T24H ratio, if it it varies by more than say 2:1 or 1.5:1 or whatever, the high pop faction gets increased XP (only helps non-level 50 characters, encouraging people to play alts) and decreased valor rewards on Ilum. Maybe even increased WZ valor rewards.

 

Meanwhile, the low pop faction gets increased valor rewards on Ilum, and decreased valor rewards in WZ, to drive action.

 

Something along this line may be a good idea, it needs some polishing but good one.

[Scalare]

There is only one reason for the imbalance and it's the "Sasuke"-generation, people who think being an uncaring jerk and looking like an evil guy is cool.

 

People look at Vader or Maul and say this is cool I want to be a ****** evil guy and this is the only reason for the imbalance.

 

I think portraying the average Jedi as an ambiguous homosexual didn't help either. The Sith simply are portrayed more manly, which is way causes people to choose them.

[Kagumi]

Just offer faction switch. Id switch in no time, but not doing my Valor and stuff again.

[Vodrin]

It's nice theory crafting, and there is some truth to it, but there are some real wholes in your logic train. A great many people in this game (most of the ones I come in contact with), payed little attention to the pre-launch hype. They rolled imperial because they found being bad in the storylines more appealing, and in some cases just though shooting lightening was cool.

 

Also, the reason for the big population swings in warhammer had nothing to do with XP incentives. The reason those swings occurred is because the mirror classes in that game were not exact mirrors, and several of the patches brought some serious power imbalances due to class balance issues. SWTOR doesn't really have issues like that.

 

XP bonuses for rerolling may help a little, but overall I think it will have a fairly minimal impact. Either the community will correct the imbalances in numbers or they will persist. I don't see a solution through changing game mechanics.

[KrustyDog]

Hello BioWare.

 

You, by now, know exactly who I am and have for some time. During the build up to launch I warned you, time and time again, about the faction imbalance. I was told, by the devs no less, that there absolutely no chance of a gross faction imbalance.

 

I was correct, the devs were wrong.

 

-----

 

With that out of the way I still want to help.

 

So I am going to explain exactly what caused this imbalance and exactly how to fix it.

 

-----

 

I give this information freely with only the hopes that it fixes this game before it does reach a catastrophic point of no return.

 

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The Cause:

 

The cause of the faction imbalance was the pre-game hype. The Sith had a poster boy who was powerful, nearly unstoppable, and seemingly unassailable. The Sith were touted as unbeatable, unstoppable, and victorious conquerors. The Sith were never decried or vilified in any way for their actions during the course of the pre-game hype and in fact were treated like paragons.

 

One of the largest contributors to the faction imbalance was the character by the name of Darth Malgus. He was, at first, a nameless Sith that players could project their own self onto. Many players psychologically considered "themselves" this character when they were visualizing the Old Republic. This set down preconceptions which BioWare only inadvertently continued to fuel.

 

Players identified with individual characters in the trailers. Fans of the Sith identified themselves as Malgus, fans of the Jedi identified themselves as Satele, and fans of the Trooper identified themselves as the Trooper from Hope for example. It was because of this that Hope was the leading cause of the faction imbalance that came from the three cinematic trailers.

 

In "Hope" the message to the players inadvertently was as follows: "The Sith are awesome, and in a one on one fight will beat any Trooper and any Jedi. Two on one they can (barely) defeat a Sith."

 

This was actually fueled by Gnost Dural's timeline histories where he stated (regarding the events of the GHW) that the only way a Sith ever lost was when another Sith turned on them.

 

BioWare went out of their way to list off every important Sith they could, but all Republic heroes were either dead (Master Ven or Master Allusus) which sent a psychological message out: "If you want to be a hero to the Republic, you are going to die."

 

The Sith were never soundly defeated. The few times they were "defeated" it was either because of overwhelming firepower or because of extreme sacrifices. The Republic on the other hand was soundly defeated, time and again, in the pre-game hype without any similar sacrifices on the part of the Sith Empire. In fact it looked easy.

 

This sent another psychological message to the player base that was in some ways nearly subliminal.

 

The Sith were also highly defended by the devs in the pre-game build up. They were touted as "not being evil" and even Gnost Dural never used strong negative language when speaking about them. There were no real downsides to the Empire ever shown, while the flaws of the Republic were often pointed out by BioWare devs.

 

The flaws of the Republic included such things as "Poor leadership" (the senate) and "Massive dissension" within the faction at its core. The Jedi being painted as being disliked by their own faction only added to this dissension and caused many people to rally against the Jedi classes in their own faction while no such phenomena was occurring on the Sith side.

 

This was readily apparent by the massive rivalry and "sniping" going on between the Trooper forums and the Jedi Knight forums.

 

There was time to fix this with counter-hype pre-game, but BioWare chose not to, and thus we have now a massive faction imbalance.

 

-----

 

How to fix it:

 

At one time counter-hype was a viable answer to the issues. That, unfortunately, won't work now. There is only one way to fix the issue now and normalize population numbers and it, unfortunately, is now a gameplay issue.

 

The gameplay issue, however, only rears its head in one situation: "Open World PVP" and thus efforts should be concentrated there.

 

The population imbalance does impact PVE but to a far lesser extent and in Warzones, aside from gear issues caused by the recent exploits, the impact is non-existent.

 

If the Republic (or the Sith) are outnumbered by 100% or more in server population, or at least population on that world, they need to receive a buff that lets them compete. If there are 90 people on Ilum and 60 of them are Sith then the Republic classes need to be able to handle themselves literally in 2:1 encounters.

 

This can be done with a buff that is adjusted based on population numbers for that planet (and instance of that planet):

 

The majority of players won't pay attention to the mechanics of such a buff and if the population gets out of hand, as it has on many servers, where the Republic is outnumbered 5:1 or more and Imperial players start seeing Republic players who are jumped 3:1 and then see the Republic player win they will re-evaluate their faction choice.

 

This could cause an auto-correcting population shift.

 

This has to be a buff that adjusts itself constantly based on population though. If it is not then it would cause a catastrophic swing as we saw in Warhammer.

 

My suggestion would be a buff that increases damage and damage mitigation as well as grants a limited resistance to CC based on the population numbers.

 

Something like (the following is an example only):

 

If one side outnumbers the other side by 50% (IE 50 Sith and 75 Reps) then the lower population side gets a buff that increases their HP and Damage by 20% while also giving a 20% chance to ignore/break a CC.

 

If one side outnumbers the other side by 100% (IE 100 Reps and 150 Sith) then the lower population side gets a buff that increases their HP and Damage by 40% while also giving a 40% chance to ignore/break a CC.

 

And so on, and so forth.

 

This has to become a priority and implemented within 45 days if the game is to have a chance at stabilizing.

 

If you don't do this BioWare, then do something else, but whatever you do the clock is ticking. You have probably less than two months before this becomes a catastrophic issue.

 

OK, if we're going to get all pschychological and wax philisophical heres the deal. Older people play Republic on average. Older people have a better moral compass and refuse to play the evil side. You know how many school shootings there were when I was young? You got it, zero. You know how many metal detectors they had to put at entrances to schools? Zero, again. I could go on and on but you get the picture. Evil has been glorified in our culture as not really evil, just misunderstood. You can date a demon, werewolf, vampire, etc. and they are actually pretty swell chaps. Hell, you can be a singin dancin witch and still be prom queen. I am 51 and was not raised with the paradigm that evil was in any way, shape, or form cool.

 

Bottom line as to the faction imbalance? Our society has decayed to the point where evil is "cool". And that, ironically enough, is most uncool.

Edited January 19, 2012 by KrustyDog

[OldManRelic]

Giving bonuses to lesser played factions is the dumbest thing that can be suggest...

 

 

"yes we know you like playing thi side but this side is 50% more powerful"

 

yeah.. smart decision...

 

The only reason you would be against this is because you don't want to keep the inherent advantages of having a 2 or 3 to 1 quantitative edge. If it takes a sledgehammer to balance things, so be it.

 

Personally, I'd swallow the bitter pill of the inferior Republic storylines if in endgame I get a buff.

Edited January 19, 2012 by OldManRelic

[corebit]

Any SWTOR forum veteran should know that ProfessorWalsh has been warning Bioware MONTHS before the game launched, telling them to stop the "Imperial Hype". Lots of people dismissed his idea as crazy, saying that Republic would be overpopulated citing examples like Alliance in WoW.

 

Now he is proven right, and Bioware still has their collective heads stuck inside you-know-what. The Ilum "band-aid" won't solve a thing. Imperials will still be dominating Ilum after this server maintenance. They will just camp outside the Republic base, and Reps still won't bother showing up as no amount of skill can defeat 10 vs. 200.

Edited January 19, 2012 by corebit

[formulaic]

I think portraying the average Jedi as an ambiguous homosexual didn't help either. The Sith simply are portrayed more manly, which is way causes people to choose them.

 

Not quite correct:

- the sith are those kick-*** kung-fu Monks/ninja-assassins, who crack jokes and split skulls... but the quentin tarantino version with the blood spray and spikey heads!

- the jedi are real monks. They pray a lot, aren't allowed relationships and, in this case, are about as fun as a toaster.

 

For some reason the first group are more popular... who'd have guessed that?

[GameNirvana]

Hello BioWare.

 

The majority of players won't pay attention to the mechanics of such a buff and if the population gets out of hand, as it has on many servers, where the Republic is outnumbered 5:1 or more and Imperial players start seeing Republic players who are jumped 3:1 and then see the Republic player win they will re-evaluate their faction choice.

 

 

This is a good idea, but it is stupid in its practicality. Don't ever assume you know what players will think or do.

 

In my opinion, if I see that the Reps are taking on Sith 1:3 with these buffs, I'll either wait until there are more Reps on Ilum, or I'll do WZs. I'm not gonna get ganked 1v1 by super Reps.

 

Others, though, will probably get on here and whine and whine and whine and whine until they annoy the Devs enough so that the buffs are removed.

 

I seriously doubt that even 5% of the Empire players would "reevaluate" their faction choice.

 

The solution is simply this: On imbalanced servers, let the most populated side transfer their characters over to the other side. After seeing how well the Reps fight on my server, I've seriously considered switching if they'd allow me the chance. This would be really tough considering the gear, loot, and mostly story. Then again, BW should have prepared for this a very long time ago.

[natca]

You can write all the walls of text you want. The reason Empire outnumber Jedi is because they can shoot lightning or they have a Boba Fettish.

 

period.

 

I believe the OP to be accurate in addition to Yanks here.

 

Thus why I think the following would allow for faction balance:

 

On either side reaching full or close to full light/dark should change your abilities. If rolling a dark Jedi on republic side and you reach close to max dark tiers, you should be able to speak to your trainer, or a dark trainer to learn the lightning, chokes, etc...

 

Of course for any other class other than a force user, you may need to change some thing around, but it will be combat animation changes. Yes this could turn out to be programming in essentially a more classes, but it would be completely worth it.

 

I know more people would want to play the Republic side if this were so, as the Empire side is almost depressing. Even the taxi droids are jerks...shouldn't they shut up, obey, and respect you, and if not you should be able to choke them. It's almost as if the bought the droids from the same factories and reprogrammed them to be jerks. LOL

[Shlamorel]

I'd be ok with a buff; just like bolster, it could work. Bolster is a great system for 1-49 PvP - this buff could work very well for level 50 PvP in Illum.

[GreebGoblin]

Ilum needs to be instanced like a WZ with equal numbers per side 20 v 20

 

With the faction imbalance and how it currently is, the current version of Ilum will not work no matter what changes they make to it.

 

Make it fair, make the numbers even and then it becomes more enjoyable.

[GeLopez]

This idea is horrible beyond belief. Every single serious PVPer would quit in a week, and then everyone else follow as the servers rapidly decline.

 

I mean, seriously, you just suggested adding a massive RNG element to crowd control. What the hell?

 

Beyond that, buffs like this completely destroy the fun and balance behind PVP. Balance will suffer as some classes benefit from the buff more than others, PVP gameplay will suffer as one faction gibs another, and the game will become completely unenjoyable for a lot of people in common scenarios like one side trying to do a 5V5 and ending up getting one-shotted by the faction with the buff. It's just an awful idea.

 

What Bioware needs to do is add faction population caps to Ilum. Let's say after today's patch the general population cap for one instance of Ilum will be 80. Why not break down that cap and make it 40 Empire and 40 Republic instead? That will encourage even numbers without damaging gameplay.

 

Also, every single person — outside of Bioware, apparently— predicted the faction imbalance for months before launch. You don't build credibility for guessing the sky will be blue tomorrow.

Edited January 19, 2012 by GeLopez

[Calviny]

Ilum should give tenacity buff so we can wreck a billion Sith/Jedi's with one attack. In all seriousness though, cap the amount of people in the stupid zone.

 

Whoever designed Ilum should lose their job, like now.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Calviny