Exploitation and Harassment = BAN

[Kaputz]

Let me start by saying that it is evident EVERYONE is in agreement that patch 1.1 was a game-breaker as far as PvP in this game is concerned. The lack of foresight on BW's part considering the scale of this DISASTER is actually laughable. If it were my company, heads would roll (bye bye Gabe Amatangelo). This is, undoubtedly, an error which will cost you millions in recurring subscriptions lost.

 

Putting that to one side I want for us and BW to give some serious thought about what has actually happened here from a player POV.

 

If you have been farming valor using the corpse-camping Illum EXPLOIT (clearly what it is) then, actually, you are breaking the game's TOS and Rules of Conduct. Specifically -

A.3 Harrasment of players:

Harass, threaten, embarrass, or do anything to another player that is unwanted. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated. (See also “Harassment Policy” below.)

 

Harassment Policy:

 

Our goal is to build a strong community that offers a comfortable atmosphere for all of our players. This means seeing that players have the ability to combat antisocial behavior

 

Harassment consists of misuse and/or abuse of game mechanics and verbal harassment with the intention of distressing and offending other players. Game mechanics allow players to interact with the world and each other. For example, the ability to block a doorway is a game mechanic. Use of game mechanics like these is by no means considered harassment in and of itself. The key to determining whether the mechanic is being misused or abused is to determine "intent." Reported incidents are not considered harassment until it is determined by the SWTOR CS that it was done to intentionally to cause distress or to offend other players.

 

Harassment is also any behavior that is incessant, inescapable, derogatory and directed specifically at you or your group. Before reporting, a genuine attempt to alleviate the situation should be made by leaving the area or the offending player, or asking them politely to stop. If a sincere attempt has been made to solve the problem and the offending player persists in the behavior, it should be reported.

 

Behavior that is always considered harassment includes derogatory and/or hateful comments that are sexual, racist, religious, or related to gender or creed.

 

A judgment of valid harassment can result in penalties placed on the harassing party up to and including immediate account closure, based on the severity of harassment and the player's past account history.

 

Player versus Player (“PvP”) activities, where available, are not exempt from this policy.

 

And B.6 Mod, Hack and Cheat Prohibitions

 

You may not engage in any conduct or practice that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, i.e., "item loading,".

 

The point that I'd like to make is the talk of 'rolling-back' irregular, exploitative valor gains is one thing but the actions of the players involved should, by letter of law, warrant a harsher punishment.

 

I'm of the opinion that a valor reset/roll-back is absolutely necessary to begin to establish parity in this faction unbalanced mess. I'm also of the opinion that the individuals involved in this exploit/harassment be punished.

 

Incidentally, I'm not on here crying because I got corpse-camped yesterday because I didn't. I'm posting as there is clearly action that needs taking following this debacle and I consider it quite serious that BW could allow the breaking of their own rules on such a big scale. Servers should have been locked down yesterday, imo.

 

BW are losing credibility fast as a result of a) the 1.1 patch from hell and b) apparent lack of technical initiative/ability in fixing the problem.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Kaputz

[Lailena]

Nice post. 100% /signed

[LordSemaj]

Well first, the harassment policy pertains to attacks against a player. Not their avatar. Killing players is an accepted part of the game.

 

Corpse camping is only harassment if you constitute open world corpse camping as harassment. Neither are in this game, it's just PVP. Bioware implemented ways to protect against it, but that doesn't mean defeating those ways through sheer force (i.e. killing the defender turrets) is innately wrong.

 

So empire can't be blamed for exploiting the corpse camping.

 

As for valor gains, clearly everyone knew it was too good to be true... but you can't blame players for PVPing in a PVP zone. It'd be different if they were doing something they weren't supposed to be doing.

 

No, this is 100% Bioware's fault. Whatever they do to the players that abused the system, I hope they issue an apology for doing it.

Edited January 19, 2012 by LordSemaj

[Libertine]

so basically youre a rep that got camped and now your crying for punishment...qq more

 

 

also PvP wasnt broken in any way in 1.1, it was Ilum that was "broken", Warzones actually became better.

[Dalnar]

There is difference between "pvp" and "feature abuse".

[Thelegendiryoku]

so basically youre a rep that got camped and now your crying for punishment...qq more

 

 

also PvP wasnt broken in any way in 1.1, it was Ilum that was "broken", Warzones actually became better.

 

Depends on the server. If not everyone on your server is lvl 50 and PvPing, it takes long waits for warzones and when they do happen 9/10 times the war zone ends due to lack of players.

[Kaputz]

Read the post in full Semaj or don't respond please.

 

Player versus Player (“PvP”) activities, where available, are not exempt from this policy.

 

C.5

[Kaputz]

Libertine, another one that clearly DID NOT read the full post.

 

As I said in the original, I wasn't involved in Illum yesterday. Got there, saw a mess and left.

 

HAVE THE COURTESY TO READ THE FULL POST BEFORE REPLYING

[LordSemaj]

Read the post in full Semaj or don't respond please.

 

Player versus Player (“PvP”) activities, where available, are not exempt from this policy.

 

C.5

 

Read my post in full, Kaputz.

 

I never said player vs player was exempt from harassment. I said there's a difference between harassment and corpse camping. Finding a way to harass a player through PVP activities can also pertain to repeatedly rescuing allied players in Huttball just as they are about to score, or intentionally standing stealthed in AOEs on PVE servers in order to force unwitting players to flag themselves.

 

Nowhere in what you quoted says "corpse camping is bad, m'kay?", so please don't respond with such inanity.

 

Also - Willing to bet not one Republic player politely asked the Imps to stop.

Edited January 19, 2012 by LordSemaj

[LordRaevin]

Welcome to 1942. Why is there a profanity filter and ignore function if it's not allowed to insult players ? Snitches get stitches.

[Dalnar]

Read my post in full, Kaputz.

 

I never said player vs player was exempt from harassment. I said there's a difference between harassment and corpse camping. Finding a way to harass a player through PVP activities can also pertain to repeatedly rescuing allied players in Huttball just as they are about to score, or intentionally standing stealthed in AOEs on PVE servers in order to force unwitting players to flag themselves.

 

Nowhere in what you quoted says "corpse camping is bad, m'kay?", so please don't respond with such inanity.

 

Also - Willing to bet not one Republic player politely asked the Imps to stop.

 

Corpse camping is not harassment. The part, where you corpse camp someone in a place, where he should be safe (medcenter) is. Attackers are clearly (ab)using the advantage (bug).

 

Clear difference.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Dalnar

[Labradoraki]

Why should they ban harassment??? You are on the freaking internet... if you cant handle a troll or a stupid person attacking you then get out and cry like a girl that cant deal with her problems and need others to save her...

[Jarlhen]

I'm not going to dispute the bulk of the original post. However, EVERYONE doesn't agree that 1.1 was gamebreaking for PvP. In fact, most people probably wouldn't even care. But of those who do it's only those without the capability of thinking for themselves who would agree. It was an uncalculated mistake, stupid yes, they should have seen it coming yes. Gamebreaking? No. It lasted for a few hours, less than a day. They won't be losing millions in subscription fees over this. If people drop their subs because of a few hour long mistake then it's really no bother, those people would drop their subs sooner rather than later anyways as they are clearly a very sensitive bunch. In fact, if they got killed 5 times in a row in a WZ I'd wager most of them would quite as they didn't auto-win like in a single player game.

 

The rest of your post though I can't really disagree with. It might be a matter of opinion however, it is my opinion that you're right, these people abused an unforseen feature (and again, it shouldn't have existed in the first place but that's not excuse). They should have their valor removed at the least.

[LordSemaj]

Corpse camping is not harassment. The part, where you corpse camp someone in a place, where he should be safe (medcenter) is. Attackers are clearly (ab)using the advantage (bug).

 

Clear difference.

For it to be harassment, it would also have to be directed specifically at your group with a clear attempt to make it stop.

 

The Empire players were not targeting specific players, they were indiscriminately slaughtering all Republic players. Again, this is not harassment by any definition, including the posted one. Harassment protects individuals, not a faction.

 

And likewise... I daresay no one made a sincere attempt to get them to stop.

Edited January 19, 2012 by LordSemaj

[Nikodeamas]

so basically youre a rep that got camped and now your crying for punishment...qq more

 

 

also PvP wasnt broken in any way in 1.1, it was Ilum that was "broken", Warzones actually became better.

 

 

 

 

 

Am i the only one that almost gags every time i read an Imperial response like this? Does this nimwit understand this game will crash and burn with only one faction? Of all of the advantages the Imperials have, clear advantages, undisputable documented proof...

 

....and they still enter threads with this type of attitude. I cannot imagine how obnoxious the majority of them are in RL. It makes me cringe.

[Greatless]

Taken from your cut/paste:

 

"The key to determining whether the mechanic is being misused or abused is to determine "intent." Reported incidents are not considered harassment until it is determined by the SWTOR CS that it was done to intentionally to cause distress or to offend other players."

 

End of story.

[Dalnar]

For it to be harassment, it would also have to be directed at your group with a clear attempt to make it stop.

 

The Empire players were not targeting specific players, they were indiscriminately slaughtering all Republic players. Again, this is not harassment by any definition, including the posted one.

 

And likewise... I daresay no one made a sincere attempt to get them to stop.

 

Well its more the part of abusing the situation for gain. Because clearly camping me centers was not intended feature. The key word here is "purpose". People knew its wrong, but still did that.

 

Beside, if you lie dead, you cannot write in say. So before you can write the sentence, you would be dead again.

 

Still I wouldn't ban anyone. I would just give them big warning, and if I would catch them abusing different situation again, then I would use the ban hammer.

[Kaputz]

Well first, the harassment policy pertains to attacks against a player. Not their avatar. Killing players is an accepted part of the game.

 

Corpse camping is only harassment if you constitute open world corpse camping as harassment. Neither are in this game, it's just PVP. Bioware implemented ways to protect against it, but that doesn't mean defeating those ways through sheer force (i.e. killing the defender turrets) is innately wrong.

 

So empire can't be blamed for exploiting the corpse camping.

 

As for valor gains, clearly everyone knew it was too good to be true... but you can't blame players for PVPing in a PVP zone. It'd be different if they were doing something they weren't supposed to be doing.

 

No, this is 100% Bioware's fault. Whatever they do to the players that abused the system, I hope they issue an apology for doing it.

 

 

By definition the first line of the first paragraph would suggest that PvP situations are exempt of the harassment policy, which you know they aren't. Just because an individual may not be known to you does not make it any less harassment if you are affecting their enjoyment of the game.

 

The start of the second paragraph is just nonsensical.

 

I agree that BW are largely to blame for this mess of course but it isn't 100% their fault. They gave players a platform on which to abuse but it's the PLAYERS who consciously participated in the abuse.

I have the tools in my house, including kitchen knives and sledgehammer, to go and murder my neighbour. I don't think, though, I'll be murdering anyone today. Stupid analogy but you know, I hope, what I'm saying here

[WombatSasquatch]

Quit crying you hippies. You got your level 50 warzone brackets because you can't find a good enough group. If you're still fed up with this game, then just leave. This game will be better with less hippies and man-babies. Edited January 19, 2012 by WombatSasquatch

[Highfives]

I don't think they should be banned for harassment after all when you make a character it says pvp interaction will not be considered harassment.

 

I do however think the participants should be banned for exploiting and farming valour.

[LordSemaj]

Well its more the part of abusing the situation for gain. Because clearly camping me centers was not intended feature. The key word here is "purpose". People knew its wrong, but still did that.

Knowing it was wrong is one thing, but that still doesn't make it harassment. Harassment is about players having the willful intention to disrupt YOUR gameplay, to target YOU for harassment. The Empire players were not intentionally making the Republic lives hell... they were just farming valor in what seemed the most efficient manner. Indiscriminate, mindless slaughter.

 

A rollback is all that's needed, not these hurt feelings being thrown about over a developer oversight.

[LordSemaj]

By definition the first line of the first paragraph would suggest that PvP situations are exempt of the harassment policy, which you know they aren't. Just because an individual may not be known to you does not make it any less harassment if you are affecting their enjoyment of the game.

 

The start of the second paragraph is just nonsensical.

 

Try rereading your original post. You ignore several of the necessary qualifications for something to be considered harassment. Namely intent and discrimination.

 

Killing all republic over and over for valor gains carries neither. It may be wrong, but it's not actionable.

 

No one was being targeted and the goal was gaining valor, not disruption of gameplay. Be a little less vindictive.

Edited January 19, 2012 by LordSemaj

[Khri]

Question is, was it absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for those players to leave. That is actually very important, because these players were in an open world pvp area, whether on a PVP, RP, or PVE server, were engaged in consensual PVP. If they were absolutely unable to leave, and then if they tried to get those Empire players to stop, and they would not, then they would have a good case for harassment.

 

But only BW can make that call, as even their policy is somewhat vague. Their policy is so vague, I can make a case, by quoting the relevant areas of policy, that getting jumped by 2 or more Republic players, on the Empire side of the map(Where the Republic has no business being) while in the middle of defending a quest objective from some mobs(part of the quest), is harassment, as they meant to be disruptive, etc blah blah blah.

 

Corpse camping is nothing new in any MMO that has pvp. Every game has ways around it however. Heck in EQ that involved waiting until that person got bored and left, are calling for help. Since then however, the ways of avoiding corpse camping has improved a lot. But like I said, if those players were utterly unable to leave, such as being able to use their quick travel, because they are killed on spawn, which I am thinking is likely the case, and they attempted to get the offending players to stop, which I am sure is also the case, I would say it was harassment. Of course, they could of just not rezzed, the EMpire players would of gotten bored and left. How it was handled back in the day anwyays.

[aleiro]

You only get corpse camped if you want to. If everybody on losing party stays dead and doesn't respawn, the campers will soon go away.

[Gorgewall]

I fail to see how killing people in a PvP zone is harassment. In fact, isn't the standard line that anything that can be resolved through PvP isn't harassment?