Sith warrior story fail, Malavai Quinn

[Kalterien]

Oddly enough, I think my SW had her one night of fun with Pierce before her and Quinn hooked up. Ahhhh... the umm... first response to Pierce's question after the fade-to-black was hilarious. You know, the "I was expecting more" comment.

 

I seriously still need something to I don't know.. vindicate Quinn though since I dragged him with me everywhere on Corellia and missed out on the scene where he comes out after saving that Darth Lord.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Kalterien

[gibmachine]

I actually think why people are reasoning over the betrayal itself when the issue at hand is not the betrayal but inability to actually punish him for it.

[bright_ephemera]

I actually think why people are reasoning over the betrayal itself when the issue at hand is not the betrayal but inability to actually punish him for it.

 

Yeah, the inability to punish is infuriating and wrecks most of my respect for the storyline. It's one of those things that's the best thing ever until five seconds before the end, when you realize it can't end like it should. Now I'm reduced to tossing laughable conspiracy theories around, 'cause there's nothing else I can do.

 

I just recently remembered a recommended solution from a very old thread. It's ridiculous, but may give some of you a laugh:

 

----

Four_leaf_clover says:

Stupid options. If he betrayed me, I would have liked the option to kill Vette.

I would have liked the option to shock Vette.

 

1. You will live, barely...

2. I can be forgiving

3. I understand

4. Eat lighting Noodle-head! [shock Vette]

 

It doesn't have to make sense.

----

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/archive/index.php/t-176581.html

[KorinHyvek]

Actually, I just really don't get why an Imperial Patriot could possibly think Baras was working for the good of the Empire after all the plot relevant conversations I dragged him through. So in essence, the betrayal just confuses me period, although the lack of an option to kill him is also understandably frustrating.

[Celacia]

There is an interesting theory going around in this thread as to Quinn's possible motivations. I think it's the most intriguing one that I have heard yet. (It starts on page 3.)

[bright_ephemera]

Actually, I just really don't get why an Imperial Patriot could possibly think Baras was working for the good of the Empire after all the plot relevant conversations I dragged him through. So in essence, the betrayal just confuses me period, although the lack of an option to kill him is also understandably frustrating.

 

I dunno, I almost sympathize with a viewpoint that says Baras is a patriot and Wacky Cultist Party is questionable. I guess I would've needed the Voss end scene to be more impressive in some way.

 

Baras kept an active spy network throughout the galaxy. Baras's plan took out the War Trust. Baras identified the padawan as a threat and started the hunt for her. Baras's power and ambition are such that he's well positioned to be the future of the Empire, and it's a hard, pragmatic, very concrete future, the kind a militarist like Quinn can wrap his head around. Baras is strong, cunning, an able administrator of vast Imperial resources, and standing right there.

 

Against this we have the word of a severely wacked-out Voss and a bunch of hooded cultists. Besides, what has the Emperor actually done that military servants can see? Has he even shown his face? Was he at the battle of Druckenwell, the sacking of Coruscant, any single battle since the war began? Was it he who finally broke the treaty that the entire military has been chafing against for ten years? No.

 

I find this reasoning shaky, particularly the bit where Baras has spent the entire game assassinating perfectly good deep-cover agents yet Quinn stills considers him a good employer; but hey, I'm throwing the idea out there.

[Kalterien]

Actually, I'm still slightly boggled that the SW takes the Wacky Cultists' word too. Granted the whole conversation with Baras later about how

 

 

you just wanting revenge and don't care either way about who "really" serves the Emperor, in one of the dialogue options makes a certain amount of sense.

 

[Lyllianna]

I always end up coming back to the simple fact this is the Sith we're talking about. Sith will never think of betrayal the way I would, only because I wasn't raised up in a world where betrayal is not only commonplace but even expected. It's about growing your power to a point the betrayal won't ruin or destroy you, not trust that it won't happen. I don't think a Sith would even know what it is to trust, shrug. My warrior NEVER trusted Quinn, she only loved him.

 

And my warrior isn't going to blame Quinn half so much as she blames Baras. Baras is the Sith in the scenario. He is more than capable of using Quinn as a tool, a bludgeon against her, because he's that powerful a character. If Quinn manages to pull it off, the warrior is destroyed, and if he doesn't the warrior is forced to kill someone she cares for. In Baras' mind, it's an utterly win-win scenario. So to my warrior, leaving Quinn alive is almost a poke in the eye, against Baras.

 

Quinn is not a Sith, will never be a Sith. At the least, she's disappointed he didn't make a wiser choice, because she knows he's smarter than that. But she KNOWS him well enough to know what buttons Baras pushed to get him to act as he did, too. Plus, his actions are woefully inadequate, almost patently so. I'm not sure Quinn did much but make a token attempt against the warrior. I tend to roleplay it out he put on what amounted to a show for Baras, enough to say, "See, I did it, it's done, we're even." Once it's done, it's like they can move on with all ties to the past finally and irrevocably severed, and my warrior can do that, again, because she knows Quinn well enough. He's dang obviously loyal to those he owes a debt to, and he so owes her one.

 

No, in the end, my warrior is just more determined in her efforts against Baras. She sees his manipulation of Quinn as the real betrayal, because it comes from as close to an equal opponent as not. Quinn is nothing more than a pawn. Baras' actions, then, are a personal infringement on something she considers nigh sacred, her family. She is more determined than ever to break Baras utterly. And she takes Quinn with her, mostly to prove something to the both of them. Baras is over, she'll make it so.

 

I agree with this assessment of the sitiuation whole heartedly, Baras tried to move himself into a no lose scenario by using Quinn as his puppet. My SW would never let him win by actually killing Quinn. I didn't take any other companions with me so his betrayal is prvate between the two of us and I'll make him pay for it by watching me kill his one true master. =)

[bright_ephemera]

I've been thinking about this. (Obviously.) And no matter how I toy with motivations, conspiracy theories, and game mechanic requirements, there's something I just can't get over in Quinn's romance story:

 

Whatever I think of Quinn as an individual - and I love him, which makes this richer but doesn't change the rules - the fact is, this is a tragic setup. From the moment Quinn lets himself want the Warrior, he's doomed. A man cannot serve two masters. He can't be with her without forsaking the man to whom he owes everything, and he can't serve that man without planning and attempting the murder of the woman he loves; in the classical tradition, he sees no way to escape. Fate rolls on.

 

No one wants to see a tragedy where nobody dies at the end.

 

Sparing him felt like...like Othello letting go of Desdemona mid-strangle, turning to the audience, and announcing "And they all lived happily ever after." Like the gods dropping Oedipus' curse because the man was unfairly stuck in an untenable prophesied situation and deserves an exception to the usual zero-tolerance policy on incest and patricide. Like Hamlet deciding that Rosencrantz and Guildenstern could turn their lives around if given the chance - hey, have a pint on me, no questions asked about working for Claudius, no harm no foul. It felt like I was robbed. Not necessarily because it's off script, but because the characters as I understand them would have to come down with a near-fatal case of the stupid to make those decisions. Play your warmer, friendlier story, but I'll go look for a theater with the version that makes sense to me.

 

I like these characters. But the plays cry out for blood: the elements of the beginning lead inevitably to the events at the end. And Quinn came close! He came so tantalizingly close! Everything you need to know about him, you learn on Balmorra, and that's gold. Great tension building from there, especially in the romance arc. A tragic setup fit to make my inner academic weep for joy. And then...then they all lived happily ever after.

 

There are game considerations more complex than me wanting my catharsis. I get that. All the same, RAWR SITH SMASH. He wants to serve like a Sith, he can take the consequences like a Sith. That weasel. I'll kill him. I'll demote him and station him on Hoth, since he likes it so much. I'll have him assigned to hard labor on "overheated sandbox" Tatooine. I'll put him in fast food service on "the armpit of the galaxy," Nar Shaddaa. (Admittedly not a very Shakespearean or Greek-tragedy outcome, but it'd make me happy.) Grrr.

Edited May 9, 2012 by bright_ephemera
grammar

[Celacia]

There are game considerations more complex than me wanting my catharsis. I get that. All the same, RAWR SITH SMASH. He wants to serve like a Sith, he can take the consequences like a Sith. That weasel. I'll kill him. I'll demote him and station him on Hoth, since he likes it so much. I'll have him assigned to hard labor on "overheated sandbox" Tatooine. I'll put him in fast food service on "the armpit of the galaxy," Nar Shaddaa. (Admittedly not a very Shakespearean or Greek-tragedy outcome, but it'd make me happy.) Grrr.

Yes. There should have been something more - even if you can't kill him. Personally (and my warrior is only just off Balmorra, thanks actually to your theory in the other thread which made me start wanting to give her a go again), I think he would make an excellent carbonite sculpture mounted on the wall next to her bed.

[Mirandel]

There are game considerations more complex than me wanting my catharsis.

 

I would say "more simplistic" not complex. Plus shortage of time\money and common attitude towards stories in the games - something insignificant you can ignore and look at only when everything else is fixed (which means - never).

 

Hence, all of us have to somehow RP our way out of it by ourself. And look - we all do great! What was it I was saying about women before? Forget it! Pathetic hopeless creatures. They will defend that spineless worm in a classical 1000-years old manner. You know - he beats me up because he loves me and just jealous, not because he is a jail-deserving monster. I bet those in BW who insisted on delivering that broken story the way it is now have a good laugh every time they come to forums.

 

I still take it as an offence to story-loving gamers and stay away from SW.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Mirandel

[JediElf]

Yes. There should have been something more - even if you can't kill him. Personally (and my warrior is only just off Balmorra, thanks actually to your theory in the other thread which made me start wanting to give her a go again), I think he would make an excellent carbonite sculpture mounted on the wall next to her bed.

 

You never know, perhaps the punishment option will appear in chapter four, perhaps with a story content update, it may happen. I just can't see this kind of heavy storytelling just being left in the wind, I mean it's not resolved now, but it may be resolved more in-depth later.

 

I love the Quinn story arc, I think it's one of the most emotionally charged and deeply effecting arcs in the game. Evidenced by how very divided we are on revenge.....or mercy.

 

It's wonderful.

[Kalterien]

I was rewatching footage of the guild summit the other day and there is supposedly footage in the ever nebulous *somewhere* of Quinn dying, they just wouldn't show it.

 

I sincerely do hope that there is some sort of resolution or punishment, (personally I just want more resolution or at least a chance for the scumbag to redeem himself since I missed that one scene) depending on your particular flavour that is either driven in the companion quests or even just a side-class quest that you have an option to complete. Something akin to the "optional" quests you get during your story mode in a few of the quests for the other classes.

 

I found that some of the hate is just about the character himself and not necessarily directed at the writing on for that quest, granted I don't know how much my S.O. is going to react to the incident itself since he's currently leveling something that isn't a SW. I just hope I'm around to see how it plays out with Quinn for him since he already hates the guy.

[ZionHalcyon]

People are really overthinking it - and it cracks me up the people who come up with these convoluted reasons to defend not killing Quinn, when the answer, the real answer, has nothing to do with story at all but a design decision.

 

 

In the original beta, you COULD kill Quinn.

 

Then, because people are idiots and didn't believe Bioware that you could do that even though they made it as plain as the butt on a goat, they went and killed Quinn and then whined later when they needed better healing than the ship droid.

 

Bioware, seeing as there would be no way to prevent people from being stupid, relented on a wonderful design and instead made it so that you cannot kill your companions.

 

Personally, I would like to see the Ship droid be able to assume any role your companion can take (maybe tie it in with the legacy droid for your ship - buy what you need), and put back in the options to kill your companion. Killing him there would have been far better in terms of story.

 

But it had NOTHING to do with Sith politics or being a kind sith or any of this nonsense people pulled out of their rear ends. It was a design decision made by bioware to protect people from their own stupidity, and if I had to guess, I would wager they hated doing it as much as the OP hated that its in the game. But at the end of the day, money talks and why alienate customers, even the dumb ones?

[bright_ephemera]

People are really overthinking it - and it cracks me up the people who come up with these convoluted reasons to defend not killing Quinn, when the answer, the real answer, has nothing to do with story at all but a design decision.

 

...

 

But it had NOTHING to do with Sith politics or being a kind sith or any of this nonsense people pulled out of their rear ends.

 

This is on the same principle that made people invent some nonsense involving slingshotting around a black hole in the Kessel Run to justify the claim that completing it in fewer parsecs means you're faster.

 

We all know that it's simple: George Lucas didn't know what a parsec was. But the fandom had to make the line make sense. No matter what tortuous abuse of logic it took. We're human, that's what we do. We try to make the world make sense.

 

Now, instead of a throwaway line, it's a character who matters, whom we like (or hate). We have to rationalize the attack of dumb. Maybe it's something involving black holes, I don't know, but we can't just leave it there. So overthinking it is: If they won't give us an ending that makes sense, we'll make sense of the ending they gave us.

[Rvlion]

Didn't read the whole thread, but still like to spend my 2c...

 

The fact that Quinn betrays the warrior is not so much à major annoyance for me.

For me it is à major annoyance that nobody else from the crew is supposed to know about it.

I want to be able to place the shock collar removed from Vette around his neck. Then whenever I feel like it I activate à special "shock collar" ability and hear Quinn behind me scream in terror.

 

Killing my only competent healer would be stupid... Making him suffer for his mistake is not.

Right now the movie cutscene is cool, the whole you are angry thing... Untill you get to the point that all you say is..."bad boy... You are lucky I need a pilot or else you would be dead now"

I flew from Dromund Kaas to Balmorra with only Vette to assist me, why would I suddenly need him.

[bright_ephemera]

Didn't read the whole thread, but still like to spend my 2c...

 

The fact that Quinn betrays the warrior is not so much à major annoyance for me.

For me it is à major annoyance that nobody else from the crew is supposed to know about it.

 

Yeeeeah.

 

I wished there was a "Is there still a 'STUPID' written across my forehead?" reply when he asked whether I would keep it secret. The whole "hey guys, watch out for the backstabber here" would be an easy additional scene to write and I hope we get it someday.

 

I found that some of the hate is just about the character himself and not necessarily directed at the writing on for that quest

Oh, heavens, yes. Quinn's a delightfully divisive character even before his plot goes off a cliff. He's a snotty racist elitist hypercritical frothing rules lawyer with the galaxy's biggest gaffi stick up his ***. He talks like it's his personal mission to attack all word-ending consonants until they surrender or die. When he isn't complaining he's nodding and bowing and repeating "my lord" to the total exclusion of, say, doing anything useful. "Yes, my lord. I respect the chain of command, my lord. Last time my CO did something that stupid I put him on a blacklist and I've been tracking his career for ten years looking for an excuse to disgrace or murder him, my lord. Happy to serve, my lord." He's a jerk to Vette and Pierce. He assassinates people as a hobby and then denies that these obvious personal scores are anything other than Service To The Empire, My Lord. (Riiiight.) It could be argued that the only trait worse than that sickeningly subservient Imperial fervor is, well, all his other ones.

 

(Love you, Captain. I just can't figure out why.)

 

I can understand wanting to space the man the minute you leave Balmorra; several of my friends feel that way. For them, the scene won't be The Reason to want to wreck him. It'll just be another good excuse.

[Jenovan]

Oh, heavens, yes. Quinn's a delightfully divisive character even before his plot goes off a cliff. He's a snotty racist elitist hypercritical frothing rules lawyer with the galaxy's biggest gaffi stick up his ***. He talks like it's his personal mission to attack all word-ending consonants until they surrender or die. When he isn't complaining he's nodding and bowing and repeating "my lord" to the total exclusion of, say, doing anything useful. "Yes, my lord. I respect the chain of command, my lord. Last time my CO did something that stupid I put him on a blacklist and I've been tracking his career for ten years looking for an excuse to disgrace or murder him, my lord. Happy to serve, my lord." He's a jerk to Vette and Pierce. He assassinates people as a hobby and then denies that these obvious personal scores are anything other than Service To The Empire, My Lord. (Riiiight.) It could be argued that the only trait worse than that sickeningly subservient Imperial fervor is, well, all his other ones.

 

(Love you, Captain. I just can't figure out why.)

 

This gave me a good chuckle. It also seems to correlate with what I decided about Quinn when I first saw YouTube footage of him on Balmorra: he is totally a villain. You're a Sith Warrior, he's on your side (more or less), but if you were a Republic character? He's a flashpoint sub-boss, or something. He probably has a few lines of condescending dialogue before the fight, too.

 

Of course, that quality immediately endears him to some.

[JediElf]

Of course, that quality immediately endears him to some.

 

To me!

 

Believe me if I had to suffer all of the SWs companions being puppy saving, cookie baking, 'i'm really a good person inside', what your doing is wrrronnng you meanie Sith! whaaaa!, types I'd just stick to the droid.

 

He was a welcome, very welcome change after Vette.

 

However it's odd that he's really responsible for one of my SWs few light side options, he evoked a mercy in my Sith Lord, that he didn't know he had.

 

That's why i like him so much as a companion.

[bright_ephemera]

It also seems to correlate with what I decided about Quinn when I first saw YouTube footage of him on Balmorra: he is totally a villain. You're a Sith Warrior, he's on your side (more or less), but if you were a Republic character? He's a flashpoint sub-boss, or something. He probably has a few lines of condescending dialogue before the fight, too.

 

Of course, that quality immediately endears him to some.

 

Yes, yes, yes! The Balmorra "I hate to burst your bubble, Jedi...no, that's a lie. I'm reveling in it." sold me on Quinn forever. My own, strange, abrasive, recreational-assassin villain. 100% immunity for any crime or annoying behavior*, I am yours 'til the stars go cold. I love a good civilized-monster villain, and if I can't have Grand Moff Kilran, well, I'll take any uniform that comes close.

 

*Interestingly, a week after I offered this immunity in a good-faith 100% guarantee, Quinn found a way to strain and snap it. Truly a remarkable man.

 

However it's odd that he's really responsible for one of my SWs few light side options, he evoked a mercy in my Sith Lord, that he didn't know he had.

 

That's why i like him so much as a companion.

 

Once again, the variety of responses Quinn evokes is great. I played primarily Light Side. My warrior carried out her orders in service of the greater mission, but she never took pleasure in a strike, never truly wanted blood until the day Quinn turned on her. My Sith Lord hadn't known she could be that angry. I want him dead, or I want him suffering, or I want things back the way they were when I believed he was mine, or...something.

 

That's why I like him so much as a companion.

Edited May 10, 2012 by bright_ephemera

[Jenovan]

Yes, yes, yes! The Balmorra "I hate to burst your bubble, Jedi...no, that's a lie. I'm reveling in it." sold me on Quinn forever.

This exactly. I heard/saw that line, and that was it. Had to roll a SW. The end.

 

Now if only they'd roll out the SGRAs I'm hoping for, so that my not-entirely-stable SW and his unstable-in-a-different-way Captain can have the amazing emotional trainwreck of awesome I'm dreaming of.

[Ismaire]

The fact that Quinn betrays the warrior is not so much à major annoyance for me.

For me it is à major annoyance that nobody else from the crew is supposed to know about it.

 

I've read that in the beta, you had the option of telling the crew about Quinn's betrayal. I'm not quite sure why Bioware didn't leave that in... (Though it may have been tied in with the original option to kill him.)

 

You also had the option of

 

taking Quinn back to the ship and having Pierce or DS Jaesa torture him, as well as stripping Quinn of his Captain rank and giving it to Pierce; I'm sure Quinn would consider both actions as fates worse than death, anyways.

 

And as much as I adore Quinn, and willing spared him, I'm of the firm belief that they should've left these options in, even if they did have to remove the kill option. I'm sure there would've been less griping about Quinn being spared if he got beaten down and humiliated a little more. (I almost wonder if they didn't or couldn't bother to redub those scenes...)

[Kalterien]

I've read that in the beta, you had the option of telling the crew about Quinn's betrayal. I'm not quite sure why Bioware didn't leave that in... (Though it may have been tied in with the original option to kill him.)

You also had the option of

 

taking Quinn back to the ship and having Pierce or DS Jaesa torture him, as well as stripping Quinn of his Captain rank and giving it to Pierce; I'm sure Quinn would consider both actions as fates worse than death, anyways.

 

...I'm of the firm belief that they should've left these options in, even if they did have to remove the kill option. I'm sure there would've been less griping about Quinn being spared if he got beaten down and humiliated a little more...

 

Wow, if I had known about from the beta (I didn't get very far on that one or two weekends that I had beta tested) I'd probably be griping more about this whole incident myself, though I must admit, I probably wouldn't have picked to do either of those options myself but it would have been NICE to have that choice.

 

I really wished that there were more of the snarky remarks from Quinn, along the same vein as the one you get on Balmorra. It was this one great line and bit of character that more or less fell to the wayside after he joins your crew.

[Ausstig]

It's not the treachery that gets, but the stupidity.

 

"I can suffer your treachery, lieutenant, but not your incompetence!"

[throws Quinn into a wall]

"Treachery requires no mistakes."

 

Paraphrasing Megatron, yesss

 

is what I would have liked to say.

 

Also Perice figures out that Quinn betrayed you, he mentions one of his conversations

[Katahn]

It's not the treachery that gets, but the stupidity.

 

"I can suffer your treachery, lieutenant, but not your incompetence!"

[throws Quinn into a wall]

"Treachery requires no mistakes."

 

Paraphrasing Megatron, yesss

 

is what I would have liked to say.

 

Also Perice figures out that Quinn betrayed you, he mentions one of his conversations

 

I'm on board with "I would love this as an option"... it completely suits my SW who, while ruthless and cruel is also constrained by a sense of honor. Barring the ability to execute him I want at least the option to torture and berate him. I can work out my character allowing him to live and continue to serve because he was honoring a prior and greater committment to Baras than he had made to him, but not reprecussion free and your idea is pure brillianc.