Prequels Saber Combat sucks

[Wolfninjajedi]

I'll just take that as you know nothing about Star Wars or anything about the first 3 movies.

 

And with the way Lucas butchered the first 3 movies, no wonder you think Yoda was a great combatant.

 

Because Lucas didnt even consult his movies when creating the prequels. He just made a popcorn flick that makes NO SENSE.

 

For example:

 

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith/

 

 

Or any of those review on his site. They all say why the first 3 movies might as well not even be lore. THEY DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

 

If you actually looked at the movies and used the lore, instead of some guy who tries to be funny you can see that they do make sense.

[Armah]

Frog. Springs. Looks ridiculous.

 

But thats besides the point. To any person who understands what made Yoda powerful, it wasn't lightsabers and combat. It was WISDOM and the force. Not mexican jumping beans.

 

You're not wrong, but he was also known for his lightsaber skill. Any of the Jedi from that era who are mentioned at being skilled are compared to Yoda.

[Hyperionthethird]

Have you ever seen an actual Jedi?

 

I dont see what basis you use for comparison.

 

A lightsaber is a sword. In the original trilogy they fought with swords.

 

In the prequels they fight as though their lightsaber is a pair of nunchucks and CONSTANTLY reveal their back to the enemy.

 

Look dude you dont want to do spinning cartwheels while fighting. It doesnt make you hit harder.

 

It's a sword with no weight.

 

Now, a lot of the influence for the prequel fights was based on what was popular at the time in action movies, post-matrix. But it also actually makes a lot more sense the way they fight in the prequels, using swords that have no weight and need no real force behind them to successfully cut something, AND with the fighters able to see attacks coming through the force.

 

I liked the fights for the most part too, except for yoda vs dooku. By comparison the old movie lightsaber duels honestly look mostly boring, just 2 guys wailing at each other.

[Arkerus]

If you actually looked at the movies and used the lore, instead of some guy who tries to be funny you can see that they do make sense.

 

The whole point, in case you missed it, was that it doesn't make sense. You haven't even watched those reviews. Lucas did NOTHING to connect the first 3 films to the prequels.

 

Lucas follows his own lore because he created it. BUt he also broke his own lore many times. There isn't even a clear definition on the time passed between episode 3 and episode 4 because Lucas was too lazy to make sure they flowed together correctly.

 

He was focused on special effects that almost every single scene in the prequels that doesn't feature CGI is people sitting on a couch.

 

Let me repeat that. Sitting. On. A. Couch.

 

Star Wars is a character story. It is actually NOT an action movie. But Lucas was busy dreaming up ridiculuos light saber duels that he forgot about the actual story.

[Arkerus]

You're not wrong, but he was also known for his lightsaber skill. Any of the Jedi from that era who are mentioned at being skilled are compared to Yoda.

 

No one in the first 3 movies needed to see it to believe he was skilled.

 

So. If we believed it in episodes 4, 5 and 6...then why did we need to see it in ep 1, 2, and 3.

 

They turned Yoda into a moron. The turned the whole council into morons. Palpatine does a ridiculous number of things to make it obvious he's the bad guy. It not even good script writing. He's not even discreet about it.

 

But anyway, thats my beef with Yoda in the prequels. We never needed to see it to believe. And when it was shown...it was awful. Just sayin.

[Hyperionthethird]

Star Wars is a character story. It is actually NOT an action movie.

 

hahahahaha

[Armah]

No one in the first 3 movies needed to see it to believe he was skilled.

 

So. If we believed it in episodes 4, 5 and 6...then why did we need to see it in ep 1, 2, and 3.

 

They turned Yoda into a moron. The turned the whole council into morons. Palpatine does a ridiculous number of things to make it obvious he's the bad guy. It not even good script writing. He's not even discreet about it.

 

But anyway, thats my beef with Yoda in the prequels. We never needed to see it to believe. And when it was shown...it was awful. Just sayin.

 

You didn't have to see it true...but he was in hiding in 4,5 and 6. During the 1,2 and 3 the Jedi were in a war...it would surprise me if never fought. The rest on everyones part is opinion.

[RandalFlagg]

The main problem i have with the ligthsabers in the prequels was that they were overused. Just about everyone had a damn lightsaber, even the kids.

 

In the original movies Luke barely used his and when he did you knew he meant business. The limitations made it awesome. IMO the lightsaber battles in the OT have more meaning and emotion than any other duel in the new movies.

 

The yoda fight is just silly and hard to watch for me. Yoda is supposed to be a wise and powerful jedi master, but seeing him jump around the room and throw his baby sized saber into a clone trooper is just horrible.

[Krusedullfaen]

Proof from somewhere that isnt a wiki written by star wars fans?

 

You're right, obviously real Jedi invented the styles so Lucas could film them.

[Rayla_Felana]

Canonically, everything is correct taking the transfer from OT to PT, Luke was the natural Shii-cho master he learned it on the fly, Shii-cho was about quick reflective defense with simultaneous precise offense, it is all about balance Luke displayed this perfectly.

 

Darth Vader was most probably the greatest Djem-So user of all time, Djem-So was about heavy over-whelming strikes to dominate your opponent and crush his defense, Vader once again displayed this perfectly.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi was the Master of Soresu, defensive combat which waits for your opponent to lose his focus, strength and stamina, then when he makes a mistake, you incapacitate him, Obi-Wan displayed this throughout all of his duels after Darth Maul, when he saw how weak the defenses of Ataru were with the death of his master.

 

Everything is correct canonically, the Prequel duels were meant to be the ultimate display of Lightsaber combat, in the age of the greatest Jedi Masters and most powerful Sith Lords.

 

Now in my opinion the duels in the SWTOR cinematic trailers were the best we have seen, but that is purely subjective.

[MaximusRex]

Those books didnt exist when the original trilogy was made.

 

I love star wars.

 

I dont like how Lucas doesnt seem to respect his own lore and ideologies.

 

Hes a walking plot hole.

 

What you really don't do is understand how technology limited how he could tell the story more then it does now. That is why he has made so many revisions to the original movies, to fix the problems he had to accept due to technical limitations.

[GhostRiderLSOV]

Yoda from 4,5,6 reminds me more of jar jar than a jedi master..

 

Yoda from 5,6 (because we never saw him in 4), was more like Mr. Miyagi than Jar Jar.

 

Small, wise (after he got properly introduced) and could do much more than Luke would expect of him.

I liked that he fought in PT, but he was too "fast" and flashy. I preferred how he pulled the X-Wing out of the swamp. Slow, serious and calculating. He didn't have to do something more than what was needed.

 

As for the annoying creature:

Jar Jar was dumb and deserved to die.

 

What you really don't do is understand how technology limited how he could tell the story more then it does now. That is why he has made so many revisions to the original movies, to fix the problems he had to accept due to technical limitations.

 

*picks up a bucket and places it to his mouth* "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooo!"

Edited January 20, 2012 by GhostRiderLSOV

[Uvirith]

Have you ever seen an actual Jedi?

What a dumb answer in a thread about a fantasymovie.

 

I dont see what basis you use for comparison.

A Gazillion references in the exanded universe.

 

A lightsaber is a sword. In the original trilogy they fought with swords.

No they didnt. A lightsaber has no weight beside the hilt and a Jedi fights with a kind of precognition given from the force. Means they already know what will happen bevore it happens (thats also the reason they are able to deflect blasterfire).

 

In the prequels they fight as though their lightsaber is a pair of nunchucks and CONSTANTLY reveal their back to the enemy.

They fight exactly as the lore suggests.

Look dude you dont want to do spinning cartwheels while fighting. It doesnt make you hit harder.

you dont need to hit hard with a lightsaber, it cuts everything like butter. But you need to be fast, incredibly fast to kill an enemy forcewielder. Thats the only way to gain an advantage.

 

As for your references to Episode IV-VI:

Luke Skywalker was a very talented duelist (actually he becomes the greatest lightsaberfighter of all times, but thats centuries later), but he just started to train a couple of years ago.

Anakin Skywalker was also a powerful melee, but when he became 80% Cyborg he lost most of his power and certainly the ability to be a good duelist.

[Wretchedscar]

 

The

of the prequels EVENTUALLY has a section on lightsaber combat and how the prequels use lightsabers poorly. I know it even opens with the simple critique of why do Obiwan and his master draw their lightsabers when they 'sense' poison gas, but he gets further into it if you have the time to watch (in my opinion) genius via internetz.

 

If you didn't link this, I would have. Best... thing... ever...

 

 

Basically, the new duels are all flash... the old ones had emotion, depth, the sheer unskilled rage luke felt, rather than choreographed dance fighting.

[shamrockjew]

What you really don't do is understand how technology limited how he could tell the story more then it does now. That is why he has made so many revisions to the original movies, to fix the problems he had to accept due to technical limitations.

 

Cramming as much CGI into a wide shot frame that already effectively used storytelling devices to establish setting, tone, and conflict is not a 'revision'. Of course the original films are lackluster in special effects that is part of what makes them so extraordinary. The limitations of those films establish the foundations of what we fans consider the lore. My brother in law found (and now owns) the very last printing of the original films before they were 'revised' at a yard sale... on Laser Disk... Now he just needs to find a working Laser Disk player.

 

I would confidently say that if Lucas released a digitally remastered CGI improved super new box set of episodes 4, 5, and 6 in February he would make a lot of money. However, if Lucas released a box set of the original theatrical releases with none of his 'revisions' from over the years in February, he'd make a lot more.

[Periphereality]

What a dumb answer in a thread about a fantasymovie.

 

No they didnt. A lightsaber has no weight beside the hilt and a Jedi fights with a kind of precognition given from the force. Means they already know what will happen bevore it happens (thats also the reason they are able to deflect blasterfire).

 

 

They fight exactly as the lore suggests.

 

 

Actually, and I don't mean to troll or spark an argument, Lucas himself said that the original idea for Jedi combat (as seen in the original films) was that the Lightsabres were as 'heavy as an iron sword' - I don't know *why* they'd be that heavy, he didn't elaborate. But I guess that's why Star Wars is fantasy and not Science Fiction.

 

Can't remember exactly what moment on the making of DVD disk, but it's there I promise you lovely people <3

[Lodestar]

Curious, Wookieepedia has been recommended by Authors and Leland Chee himself.

 

 

 

And I didn't get my info from there, I just know from Ep. 1 "behind the scenes" clips. Ray Park(Ray Park) spoke about how he had to learn a little fencing for the scenes where it was just him vs Liam Neeson.

 

 

We also see it allot used by Dooku.

 

Makashi- is the closest form to Fencing. Many of the postures and moves are similar to fencing ones. Count Dooku used Makashi(Though, I'd look at Episode 2 more than 3.)

 

What he does not tell you is that the coreographers, added bits in to make it look good for the movie. Such as that which the OP mentioned about turning your back to the enemy, I would think were thrown in as part of that. They were chosen for looks, not practicality.

[CarpLTunnel]

I thought the original premise of the light saber was yes it was weightless. However. You needed to concentrate heavily on using it so you would not sever your own body to bits. That was my theory on why Vader and Luke looked like they were concentrating while wielding the sabers. The new movies are more how Chinese Monks fight using butterfly swords and other monk like weapons. the double bladed saber fights like a monk using a long spear/bladed pole weapon. Take a look at any old martial arts movie. The tech was there to make saber combat fast.

 

I think saber combat changed to appeal to the minds of action movie fans.

Edited January 20, 2012 by CarpLTunnel

[achrystie]

I think the enhanced mobility of the Jedi in the prequels is pretty much what I expected vs. the 4, 5, 6 Episodes.

 

1, 2, and 3 are the Jedi at the height of their power and an Emporer and his apprentice(s) in their youth. I would expect acrobatics from fighters who have a "sixth sense" and "magical force powers", while at the same time a highly developed training system from years of the old republic and various wars.

 

In the episodes 4-6, Luke is untrained/has limited training/is self trained. Vader is mostly mechanical and has limited mobility, and the Emperor and Obi-Wan are old men who have mostly given up the lightsaber, probably because of their age, relying almost purely on their wisdom and The Force for their power.

 

It's one of the few things that makes sense to me in the movie progression, and one of the best parts of all the movies.

 

The things I take issue with are much more to do with painful dialog (in all the movies, but mostly the first two), and a really poorly thought out and executed motivation/progression for the death of Padme and Anakin's turn to the dark side.

 

In other words, if I have to pick stuff to moan about in Star Wars, the saber battles are the last thing I'd choose.

[Nissin]

More like this IMO

 

[unicornfive]

Yoda from 5,6 (because we never saw him in 4), was more like Mr. Miyagi than Jar Jar.

 

Small, wise (after he got properly introduced) and could do much more than Luke would expect of him.

I liked that he fought in PT, but he was too "fast" and flashy. I preferred how he pulled the X-Wing out of the swamp. Slow, serious and calculating. He didn't have to do something more than what was needed.

 

As for the annoying creature:

Jar Jar was dumb and deserved to die.

 

 

 

*picks up a bucket and places it to his mouth* "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooo!"

 

Yet miyagi fought and proved his skill with actions. Yoda didnt fought at all in 5,6

[Zeratho]

In the OT, the lightsaber duels were about feelings, in PT they are just meant to look cool.

 

Anyone who says Luke vs. Vader in Empire Strikes Back was worse than Anakin vs. Obi-Wan is a total idiot.

 

Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel was supposed to rise feelings in the audience, because this was master and student, two friends fighting each other, instead Lucas made them just swing their swords wildly at each other. You guys can say whatever you want, you can try to defend that duel and say "they saw each other's moves before they happened" but that duel was crap. And do you know what is the main reason that PT duels look crap? Because the fighters don't tire! In OT duels Luke was getting more exhausted as the duel went on. Vader throwed objects at him and Luke got bruises, black eyes... And in Return of the Jedi, Vader was exhausted when Luke chopped his hand off.

In PT they are like robots who are programmed to fight, and I am sure that if Anakin and Obi-Wan would had been tired, exhausted when they dueled, that fight would had been a whole lot better.

 

And honestly speaking, I enjoyed Yoda vs. Sidious much more than Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, at least they did something else than swinging swords. And I at least can see that Yoda is trying to do everything to defeat Sidious. He is actually FIGHTING to kill his opponent. But sure that duel also had some sword swinging that didn't look real.

 

I understand that most (young) people don't like Obi-Wan vs. Vader duel, but the duel itself isn't the main point, it's the Obi-Wan's sacrifice. So to speak, the feelings in that duel, and by that alone it is way better than Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

 

I can only wonder what the hell happened to Lucas. When he made Return of the Jedi and Luke's and Vader's confrontation, he didn't focus at the battle choreographic, he kept that duel short, because the main point was what was going inside Luke's and Vader's heads.

[adamqd]

lack subtlety maybe... Suck? nope

[Wolfninjajedi]

In the OT, the lightsaber duels were about feelings, in PT they are just meant to look cool.

 

Anyone who says Luke vs. Vader in Empire Strikes Back was worse than Anakin vs. Obi-Wan is a total idiot.

 

Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel was supposed to rise feelings in the audience, because this was master and student, two friends fighting each other, instead Lucas made them just swing their swords wildly at each other. You guys can say whatever you want, you can try to defend that duel and say "they saw each other's moves before they happened" but that duel was crap. And do you know what is the main reason that PT duels look crap? Because the fighters don't tire! In OT duels Luke was getting more exhausted as the duel went on. Vader throwed objects at him and Luke got bruises, black eyes... And in Return of the Jedi, Vader was exhausted when Luke chopped his hand off.

In PT they are like robots who are programmed to fight, and I am sure that if Anakin and Obi-Wan would had been tired, exhausted when they dueled, that fight would had been a whole lot better.

 

And honestly speaking, I enjoyed Yoda vs. Sidious much more than Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, at least they did something else than swinging swords. And I at least can see that Yoda is trying to do everything to defeat Sidious. He is actually FIGHTING to kill his opponent. But sure that duel also had some sword swinging that didn't look real.

 

I understand that most (young) people don't like Obi-Wan vs. Vader duel, but the duel itself isn't the main point, it's the Obi-Wan's sacrifice. So to speak, the feelings in that duel, and by that alone it is way better than Anakin vs. Obi-Wan.

 

I can only wonder what the hell happened to Lucas. When he made Return of the Jedi and Luke's and Vader's confrontation, he didn't focus at the battle choreographic, he kept that duel short, because the main point was what was going inside Luke's and Vader's heads.

 

Actually in their duel, Obi-Wan was getting tired if you looked at some scenes.

[WarheartZero]

Have you ever seen an actual Jedi?

 

I dont see what basis you use for comparison.

 

A lightsaber is a sword. In the original trilogy they fought with swords.

 

In the prequels they fight as though their lightsaber is a pair of nunchucks and CONSTANTLY reveal their back to the enemy.

 

Look dude you dont want to do spinning cartwheels while fighting. It doesnt make you hit harder.

 

This totally made me LOLOL!

 

last statement = epic!

 

 

Also just to add to this, I'm pretty sure the style, Vader and Luke used, they used Force strength hence those grinding moments per Lucas. Force strength is also part of Form V, parry and deal heavy blows. I miss the grinding struggle of lightsabers from the original trilogy. Prequels were cool moments but very choreographed looking. Form V by nature is a very aggressive style hence why a lot of jedi never picked it up.

Edited January 21, 2012 by WarheartZero