Yfelsung Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ysel but what you are failing at is providin one MMO that has all these in one, you keep contradicting yourself in ways I'd never think of seeing. So your definition of innovation is just shoving a bunch of already existing features into the same game? Well *pats you on the back* Let me sell you this car I got with a built in toilet. It's the most innovative thing in cars ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esaru Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Vindictus says hello. Been out over a year. No trinity, all action based. Server vs server isn't innovative either. DAoC says hi for that. Cross-profession skills.... Ever heard of Skyrim? Doesn't matter if Skyrim isn't an MMO, it's still been done. Skyrim isn't even multiplayer, what cross profession skills are you talking about? (PS - I played the game, absolutely no clue what you're talking about here. Talk about grasping for straws) And yes, I'm talking within the genre. Vindictus is a lobby instance game, not a true MMORPG. DAoC was innovative for its time, but it's VERY old now. Most MMO players post-DAoC have not seen this type of PVP in an MMO. For all intensive purposes, it's relatively unique. You're all missing the point though. It doesn't really matter if it's some BRAND SPANKIN' NEW feature that no one has done before. It's the SUM OF ITS PARTS that truly matter. Why only look at what GW2 is 'innovating' rather than the whole picture and all the unique features it brings together? Edited January 17, 2012 by Esaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiraiya_Goketsu Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 UI flaws, bugs, and other issues aside, the leveling process in this game is enjoyable and refreshing. No, this isn't the first MMO to have a story (that's what is in those little paragraphs of text that most of you disregard), but I did find the quality of the story for the Jedi Knight and Consular to be above average when compared to other titles. Great job! By far my largest problem with the game (other than the missing UI features that are standard in just about any other AAA title) is that it all comes to a screeching halt at level 50. It is almost like I am taken from a galaxy far, far away and tossed back into Azeroth/Telara/Hyboria. Suddenly all I have to do is: Grind daily quests for commendations.Grind "PvP" arenas for commendations.Grind raids for a chance at progressing my character and commendations. There is no more story progression. There is no more non item-based character progression. This is where SWTOR becomes a carbon copy of every other loot treadmill out on the market. Why? Why should I stay here and do the exact same crap I can do in all of those other games I quit when I was faced with the same predicament? Why is it that you chose the same shallow excuse for an end game as every other hyped-and-flopped* loot treadmill that has come out in the past eight years? I get the sneaking suspicion that people burn through MMOs because they're looking for something new and innovative rather than the same old stuff that they were doing (and obviously grew tired of) in their previous game of choice. Not only are more and more players growing absolutely sick of this lazy end game design, it takes far more time and effort to develop static, scripted content than it does for players to consume it. You'll never outpace the hardcore and/or the competent mainstream players. You have the Star Wars IP. The game is set during a time of great conflict between the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. Numerous other factions are involved that are trying to take advantage of the situation and sew chaos or make a hefty profit. Use this potential for something other than making a World of Riftaionconancraft clone. Why not have entire PvP planets where the sole purpose is to control valuable crafting resource nodes for your faction so that you can craft "raid quality" gear and prevent the opposition from doing so themselves? What if by capturing this planet the entire faction gained a buff that allowed them to gain high amounts of legacy XP, or gave them higher chances to successfully reverse engineer crafted goods, or even gave them massive credit boosts? Why not have player-created fortifications that must be defended/sieged but generate rewards for the faction who built and maintains them such as rare crafting schematics and resources? Why not have entire PvE planets where the mobs (let's say White Maw pirates) have AI and actually assault your faction's bases as your faction struggles to regain control of that sector of the world? Why not have points of interest on this planet that must be captured and held from the AI (that gets progressively more challenging) that give you control of valuable resource nodes or maybe even access to extremely difficult but short dungeons and/or raids. On top of this, why not have an alternate advancement system (or turn the Legacy system into this) that gives even more purpose to playing after the level cap? You could open this up and make the rewards be new abilities (including the ability to equip blasters as Jedi/Sith, etc.) in addition to statistical bonuses and other perks. You can do so much more than be yet another mediocre grind-or-quit MMO, yet you've chosen to go down this road. Your stated goals are to pump out more daily quests, flashpoints, and operations for people to grind. Is that it? Do you really think that will hold a long-term audience when every single game that has attempted to emulate this World of Warcraft style of end game has lost a majority of their subscribers after a short time? I'm very disappointed with this game the level cap. I want this game to succeed, but the lack of wisdom and apparent lethargy on the part of the developers genuinely makes me angry. I'm tired of seeing the genre stagnate with nothing but loot treadmill after loot treadmill being released. It makes me wish I had gone into game design rather than architecture. I honestly expected better from the people that brought us Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, and other great titles. Please say you'll actually do more than ensure this is just another mediocre game in an ocean of mediocre games. *Flopped meaning suffered massive subscription losses shortly after launch. See: Rift, Warhammer, AION (NA), Age of Conan, etc. TL;DR: Please innovate. Don't release nothing but operations and flashpoints. Use the IP to its fullest. Make open-world content for PvE/PvP players that is dynamic, engaging, and not grind-based. The longest-lasting content is player-impacted (dynamic) content, not scripted flashpoints and operations that we blow through in a fraction of the time you spent developing it. Here's some innovation for ya. http://i.imgur.com/UmcMV.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Here's some innovation for ya. http://i.imgur.com/UmcMV.jpg Hahahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthPeterNorth Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I agree 100% with this OP. Unfortunately the mmorpg market is slave to wow. Even star wars became its beach. Devs are afraid to innovate and all of them wants those 12million subs. A AAA mmorpg with sandbox features for PVE players where progression is eternal without bing tied to raids and you dont have to be a ship... Only in my dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fograw Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I really think that the good elements of Star Wars Galaxies could be used in this mmo. You had the ability to build towns, place faction bases (and fight over them) and a lot of other real player created goodies. I saw a guild hall in Galaxies where a guy used all sorts of parts from crafting to create a speeder. Really cool. These are the types of things that would separate this game from World of Warcraft. I layed WoW for 7 years. I don't want to play anymore, but I will go back if this is just a storied and skinned version of a game I left that has very very few bugs. This. It is getting ridiculous that endgame for a "themepark" mmo revolves around these silly gear grabs, only to wait for the next expansion when you can do it all again. Why can't they section off additional environments exclusively for the sole purpose of housing and markets? I know that is an extra layer of complexity, but some people demand complexity over these mindless endgame activities that the "themepark" mmo employs. And furthermore, why is crafting taking a back seat to any of this? What is the point of crafting when it is becoming obsolete as soon as you reach 50 (with the exception of selling lower level gear). It's downright stupid. Make crafting engaging and reward hard work with crafting to unique items and gear. Operations and flashpoints should provide some other meaningful benefit besides gear, like items that you can use to permanently raise a stat or improve a skill. The whole "instance for loot" mechanic is downright boring and getting very stale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzerion Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) So your definition of innovation is just shoving a bunch of already existing features into the same game? Well *pats you on the back* Let me sell you this car I got with a built in toilet. It's the most innovative thing in cars ever. Yea that's cool and all but that car does have a different result than one without one hmmmmm? Ahh now I can use the restroom and still drive at the same time sweet. Edited January 17, 2012 by Ryzerion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Unfortunately the mmorpg market is slave to wow. Even star wars became its beach. Devs are afraid to innovate and all of them wants those 12million subs. A AAA mmorpg with sandbox features for PVE players where progression is eternal without bing tied to raids and you dont have to be a ship... Only in my dreams. The sad thing is all that WOW did was building on a successful formula and improved on things people didn't like. That and well WOW has great gameplay and good character responsiveness. The problem with this is that WOW also milked this formula dry, they did a lot with it and well at this moment people are slowly starting to get sick of WOW. Bosses are limited to this formula's mechanics and so is the gameplay. I just don't think a hotkey based MMO like WOW would ever get so many subs. Something new has to be made. Sure you can still pick a lot of stuff from this formula and use it. But just not like SWTOR, it's almost exactly the same game with a different skin and a story line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Unfortunately the mmorpg market is slave to wow. Even star wars became its beach. Devs are afraid to innovate and all of them wants those 12million subs. A AAA mmorpg with sandbox features for PVE players where progression is eternal without bing tied to raids and you dont have to be a ship... Only in my dreams. Didn't you just describe Eve: Online? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryzerion Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Didn't you just describe Eve: Online? Think he said you don't have to be a ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Didn't you just describe Eve: Online? Or Age of Conan really./ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightblaster Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Didn't you just describe Eve: Online? I love my EVE, but the point is this: (1) cheap to make because it didn't have avatars for the first seven years of the game (and even now, very limited) and (2) capped audience due to (1). The definition of a "niche" MMO. I'm a part of that happy niche, but at the same time we can't confuse EVE with a AAA MMORPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthPeterNorth Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 The sad thing is all that WOW did was building on a successful formula and improved on things people didn't like. That and well WOW has great gameplay and good character responsiveness. The problem with this is that WOW also milked this formula dry, they did a lot with it and well at this moment people are slowly starting to get sick of WOW. Bosses are limited to this formula's mechanics and so is the gameplay. I just don't think a hotkey based MMO like WOW would ever get so many subs. Something new has to be made. Sure you can still pick a lot of stuff from this formula and use it. But just not like SWTOR, it's almost exactly the same game with a different skin and a story line. There is a MMORPG named Darkfall which probably 99% of the player base ignores. It has all these feature i would love but its run by an amateur company who can barely deal with hacks and things that plague low budget online games. Now imagine that game with Star Wars license, polished. Theres no fricking loading in there btw. Theres no exaust areas on land. If each planet of Star Wars coul be 1/5 of Darkfall map the game would be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verise Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Completely agree, I'm at the point where I just wanna level another character just to do another story. Though I do like the flashpoints, grinding through them is something I did for years in wow (like most others playing this game). For Christ sake their endgame is a carbon copy of WOW. Obviously, it won't be everyone's cup of tea but taking advantage of the majority of the content would require one to level multiple characters. To me, the different part of SWTOR for an mmo seems to be the extent to how story driven it is during the leveling process and how much detail, effort and expense was put into the story with the result being it is possible to level multiple characters with little crossover content (the up side to how fast leveling is compared to content and quests going grey early on if one takes a completionist approach). I believe somebody already mentioned the feeling that it is combining a recent solo RPG with an MMO. The problem being that this then leaves one waiting for the next major content patch for the continuation of the story once you complete your character's story lines. Otherwise, it is a return to a more typical mmo grind (of whatever sort that mmo has) at max level. There is, though, enough diversity in the class story lines that you can level 8 characters with only moderate overlap. If you don't at least do one empire side and one republic side you have chosen to deprive yourself of well over half the game's content. Again, I'm not saying that everyone is going to want to level multiple characters and there are many people who play for the end game in mmos and don't enjoy the leveling process. However, if you don't level multiple characters, you have chosen to not take advantage of most of the game content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeadCapper Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I love my EVE, but the point is this: (1) cheap to make because it didn't have avatars for the first seven years of the game (and even now, very limited) and (2) capped audience due to (1). The definition of a "niche" MMO. I'm a part of that happy niche, but at the same time we can't confuse EVE with a AAA MMORPG. Why would a company put AAA money into a niche market like sandbox games? I like sandbox games but i don't fool myself that it's any bigger of a market than it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthPeterNorth Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Think he said you don't have to be a ship. Yea, being a ship kinda sucks and also the fact that EVE is more like a meta game where you plan everything ahead, press train skill and go to bed. Come back in some months to be able to actually play what you wanted. I have an account on EVE, it lacks a character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Think he said you don't have to be a ship. Seems kind of a shame. "Hey, this game has every single thing I want! Oh, but I'm a ship instead of an elf or Jedi. Too bad, back to complaining about WoW clones." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathDiciple Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This. It is getting ridiculous that endgame for a "themepark" mmo revolves around these silly gear grabs, only to wait for the next expansion when you can do it all again. Why can't they section off additional environments exclusively for the sole purpose of housing and markets? I know that is an extra layer of complexity, but some people demand complexity over these mindless endgame activities that the "themepark" mmo employs. And furthermore, why is crafting taking a back seat to any of this? What is the point of crafting when it is becoming obsolete as soon as you reach 50 (with the exception of selling lower level gear). It's downright stupid. Make crafting engaging and reward hard work with crafting to unique items and gear. Operations and flashpoints should provide some other meaningful benefit besides gear, like items that you can use to permanently raise a stat or improve a skill. The whole "instance for loot" mechanic is downright boring and getting very stale. Fully agree with this, and with the OP. The 'base' still has the potential to evolve into something else if Illum idea is developed further, and crafting gets ungimped, it all depends on how further dev goes. I am still hoping they won't follow the 'new FP/new OP/new grind' logic but instead work on other aspects as well. Running those is fun and cool but guess what, first couple of times. They should be developed/improved but SW deserves another option, another level of gameplay at cap, instead of turning into raid grind fest or nothing. It is the 'new shiny thing' now but in a couple of months, how will you win the market or make anyone switch to TOR if all you have is same-old that others have (and frankly, more polished, due to years in the business etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) But why? Blizzard was exceptionaly successful by having no innovation and putting out a complete mediocre game.. Edited January 17, 2012 by Razot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I love my EVE, but the point is this: (1) cheap to make because it didn't have avatars for the first seven years of the game (and even now, very limited) and (2) capped audience due to (1). The definition of a "niche" MMO. I'm a part of that happy niche, but at the same time we can't confuse EVE with a AAA MMORPG. I don't think people should confuse AAA mmos with niche-based games either. If Eve is more up someone's alley, I dont' know why they'd be supporting anything like TOR in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightblaster Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Why would a company put AAA money into a niche market like sandbox games? I like sandbox games but i don't fool myself that it's any bigger of a market than it really is. Exactly my point, I agree. And why posts about "why isn't this more sandboxy" are beside the point for a game that cost this much to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightblaster Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I don't think people should confuse AAA mmos with niche-based games either. If Eve is more up someone's alley, I dont' know why they'd be supporting anything like TOR in the first place. I like both kinds of games. In EVE I play the trading game, which requires low maintenance and is more meta (I previously did much more time-intensive stuff like 0.0 alliance play and so on but done with that tbh). That leaves time for a game like this, as well as SP games like Skyrim. One type of game/genre makes Jack a sad panda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkhosis Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You are meant to level multiple times in SWTOR... Just like when you completed KOTOR, what did you do? You started all over again taking a different path. This game is for altaholics and die hard KOTOR fans which there are many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokt Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 +1 to this thread. Posted a very similar thread last week. This to me is the number one problem with SWTOR. Endgame is Broken and SWTOR attempts to fix it are all pointing towards just rehashing the same old mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EllipticSmile Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Couldn't have said it better myself. They could have used an ability system like KOTORs, or SOMETHING different, yet chose to make a clone of every MMO that has bombed recently (except with companions and voice acting which I do enjoy greatly). Why do developers think they can pull people from WoW by doing the same exact thing? Or better yet bring people that are sick of WoW into a game that is exactly the same. We aren't tired of the setting (at least I'm not), we are tired of the mechanics. It makes no sense. Greatly saddens me. I'll play for a while but I have no doubt I'm going to get bored quickly. Edited January 17, 2012 by EllipticSmile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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