Why be mediocre when you can be exceptional? How about some innovation?

[Twixted]

These forums move faster than the vote page on 9gag...9gaggers will get it

 

Until you learn to go into your forum options and subscribe to threads you post in. using your subscriptions to threads is the only way to keep track really.

[Pravis]

I like how on one hand people cry about features that are NOT in SWTOR but in every other AAA MMO (didn't realize there were so many AAA games around)

 

And on the other hand they cry about features that every AAA MMO has that ARE in SWTOR.

 

They actively chose to have some features in and leave some out by design and it works, and the game is still in its infancy leaving plenty of room to grow.

 

But then I keep frogetting myself. I mean internet forums are where people post about unrealistic expectations and demands (eg. how come a brand new games doesn't have all X, Y Z features that other games took 10+ years to implement).

[Barkr]

Agree so much with OP. Just cancelled. Sad day, having been looking forward to this game since it was announced.

[BadgeredMushroom]

But then I keep frogetting myself. I mean internet forums are where people post about unrealistic expectations and demands (eg. how come a brand new games doesn't have all X, Y Z features that other games took 10+ years to implement).

 

I'm so sick to death of this backwards logic. I expect a vehicle I purchase in 2012 to have at a minimum the features of similar 2012 vehicles and definitely have the features of previous model years. I don't go into a car dealership and expect to see vehicles without speedometers and clocks.

 

Likewise, I expect a game to launch with at a minimum the features that are now standard in other AAA titles. Rift launched with the best stock UI I've seen in any MMO. Why the hell does SWTOR launch with the most rigid UI I've seen since 2000?

 

I also expect games to do something different (especially in regards to end game) than they were doing in 2004. SWTOR's end game (which is the subject of this thread) is 100% identical to that of Rift, AION, World of Warcraft, etc., which begs the question: Why stay here and do the same crap you could do in the game you left for this one if that game has more polish, more content, and an established community? The key to success is innovation, not cloning the competition. The extreme lethargy and lack of wisdom on BioWare's part actually angers me, especially after the considerable amount of hype surrounding this game.

[vizzaltalik]

UI flaws, bugs, and other issues aside, the leveling process in this game is enjoyable and refreshing. No, this isn't the first MMO to have a story (that's what is in those little paragraphs of text that most of you disregard), but I did find the quality of the story for the Jedi Knight and Consular to be above average when compared to other titles. Great job!

 

By far my largest problem with the game (other than the missing UI features that are standard in just about any other AAA title) is that it all comes to a screeching halt at level 50. It is almost like I am taken from a galaxy far, far away and tossed back into Azeroth/Telara/Hyboria.

 

Suddenly all I have to do is:

 

• Grind daily quests for commendations.
  
• Grind "PvP" arenas for commendations.
  
• Grind raids for a chance at progressing my character and commendations.
  

 

There is no more story progression. There is no more non item-based character progression. This is where SWTOR becomes a carbon copy of every other loot treadmill out on the market. Why?

 

Why should I stay here and do the exact same crap I can do in all of those other games I quit when I was faced with the same predicament? Why is it that you chose the same shallow excuse for an end game as every other hyped-and-flopped* loot treadmill that has come out in the past eight years? I get the sneaking suspicion that people burn through MMOs because they're looking for something new and innovative rather than the same old stuff that they were doing (and obviously grew tired of) in their previous game of choice. Not only are more and more players growing absolutely sick of this lazy end game design, it takes far more time and effort to develop static, scripted content than it does for players to consume it. You'll never outpace the hardcore and/or the competent mainstream players.

 

You have the Star Wars IP. The game is set during a time of great conflict between the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. Numerous other factions are involved that are trying to take advantage of the situation and sew chaos or make a hefty profit. Use this potential for something other than making a World of Riftaionconancraft clone.

 

Why not have entire PvP planets where the sole purpose is to control valuable crafting resource nodes for your faction so that you can craft "raid quality" gear and prevent the opposition from doing so themselves? What if by capturing this planet the entire faction gained a buff that allowed them to gain high amounts of legacy XP, or gave them higher chances to successfully reverse engineer crafted goods, or even gave them massive credit boosts? Why not have player-created fortifications that must be defended/sieged but generate rewards for the faction who built and maintains them such as rare crafting schematics and resources?

 

Why not have entire PvE planets where the mobs (let's say White Maw pirates) have AI and actually assault your faction's bases as your faction struggles to regain control of that sector of the world? Why not have points of interest on this planet that must be captured and held from the AI (that gets progressively more challenging) that give you control of valuable resource nodes or maybe even access to extremely difficult but short dungeons and/or raids.

 

On top of this, why not have an alternate advancement system (or turn the Legacy system into this) that gives even more purpose to playing after the level cap? You could open this up and make the rewards be new abilities (including the ability to equip blasters as Jedi/Sith, etc.) in addition to statistical bonuses and other perks.

 

You can do so much more than be yet another mediocre grind-or-quit MMO, yet you've chosen to go down this road. Your stated goals are to pump out more daily quests, flashpoints, and operations for people to grind. Is that it? Do you really think that will hold a long-term audience when every single game that has attempted to emulate this World of Warcraft style of end game has lost a majority of their subscribers after a short time?

 

I'm very disappointed with this game the level cap. I want this game to succeed, but the lack of wisdom and apparent lethargy on the part of the developers genuinely makes me angry. I'm tired of seeing the genre stagnate with nothing but loot treadmill after loot treadmill being released. It makes me wish I had gone into game design rather than architecture. I honestly expected better from the people that brought us Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, and other great titles. Please say you'll actually do more than ensure this is just another mediocre game in an ocean of mediocre games.

 

*Flopped meaning suffered massive subscription losses shortly after launch. See: Rift, Warhammer, AION (NA), Age of Conan, etc.

 

TL;DR: Please innovate. Don't release nothing but operations and flashpoints. Use the IP to its fullest. Make open-world content for PvE/PvP players that is dynamic, engaging, and not grind-based. The longest-lasting content is player-impacted (dynamic) content, not scripted flashpoints and operations that we blow through in a fraction of the time you spent developing it.

 

 

When you actually have something innovative to say...I might take you seriously. But when you're issues ammount to 'theres not enough to do' and you even make the argument that kills your own suggestions of 'we will consume anything you throw at us faster than you can produce it'...and then make "innovative" suggestions of 'add more content where we fight off scripted npcs' and 'make a pvp zone which affects other things'...

 

More content isn't innovative. PVP zones which give your faction a boost isn't innovative. Its the same thing we've seen for YEARS...and neither has ever worked out ...especially the pvp zones.

[BadgeredMushroom]

When you actually have something innovative to say...I might take you seriously. But when you're issues ammount to 'theres not enough to do' and you even make the argument that kills your own suggestions of 'we will consume anything you throw at us faster than you can produce it'...and then make "innovative" suggestions of 'add more content where we fight off scripted npcs' and 'make a pvp zone which affects other things'...

 

More content isn't innovative. PVP zones which give your faction a boost isn't innovative. Its the same thing we've seen for YEARS...and neither has ever worked out ...especially the pvp zones.

 

I never said there isn't enough to do. You should re-read the post. I'll await your apology. I said the current model for end game is exactly the same as the end game found in their main competitor and all of the other loot treadmills that have attempted to emulate it. There is an enormous difference between saying there's not enough content and saying the content you have is disappointing.

 

The things I suggested have been done, but not at the scale and level of significance I'm suggesting. If they actually made the rewards for doing these things worthwhile it would be a suitable alternative to the same old loot treadmill, especially when combined with an AA system of some sort. If they can pull off a reactive AI (something similar to how AI works in RTS games perhaps) it wouldn't be quite as bland and scripted as you're assuming. A good AI would be able to adjust accordingly to player tactics.

 

My point about scripted raid content being consumed faster than player influenced dynamic content is absolutely true. It takes them months to design a raid and it takes us weeks to complete it.

Edited January 21, 2012 by BadgeredMushroom

[Geglad]

[*]Draconian death penalties and other completely unecessary time sinks that did nothing to make the game harder but simply made it take longer.

 

 

Yeah - the good old days are long gone aint they?

 

But for the sake of amusement let me fix this a bit...its in fun, so take it that way...

 

 

[*]Draconian death penalties and other completely necessary time sinks that did alot to make the game harder and less carebear and simply made it take longer for those incapable of adaption or a basic learning curve.

 

 

Couldnt resist - yeah the hardcore days are gone isnt dey?

 

 

-Lad

[Phenyr]

UI flaws, bugs, and other issues aside, the leveling process in this game is enjoyable and refreshing. No, this isn't the first MMO to have a story (that's what is in those little paragraphs of text that most of you disregard), but I did find the quality of the story for the Jedi Knight and Consular to be above average when compared to other titles. Great job!

 

By far my largest problem with the game (other than the missing UI features that are standard in just about any other AAA title) is that it all comes to a screeching halt at level 50. It is almost like I am taken from a galaxy far, far away and tossed back into Azeroth/Telara/Hyboria.

 

Suddenly all I have to do is:

 

• Grind daily quests for commendations.
  
• Grind "PvP" arenas for commendations.
  
• Grind raids for a chance at progressing my character and commendations.
  

 

There is no more story progression. There is no more non item-based character progression. This is where SWTOR becomes a carbon copy of every other loot treadmill out on the market. Why?

 

Why should I stay here and do the exact same crap I can do in all of those other games I quit when I was faced with the same predicament? Why is it that you chose the same shallow excuse for an end game as every other hyped-and-flopped* loot treadmill that has come out in the past eight years? I get the sneaking suspicion that people burn through MMOs because they're looking for something new and innovative rather than the same old stuff that they were doing (and obviously grew tired of) in their previous game of choice. Not only are more and more players growing absolutely sick of this lazy end game design, it takes far more time and effort to develop static, scripted content than it does for players to consume it. You'll never outpace the hardcore and/or the competent mainstream players.

 

You have the Star Wars IP. The game is set during a time of great conflict between the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic. Numerous other factions are involved that are trying to take advantage of the situation and sew chaos or make a hefty profit. Use this potential for something other than making a World of Riftaionconancraft clone.

 

Why not have entire PvP planets where the sole purpose is to control valuable crafting resource nodes for your faction so that you can craft "raid quality" gear and prevent the opposition from doing so themselves? What if by capturing this planet the entire faction gained a buff that allowed them to gain high amounts of legacy XP, or gave them higher chances to successfully reverse engineer crafted goods, or even gave them massive credit boosts? Why not have player-created fortifications that must be defended/sieged but generate rewards for the faction who built and maintains them such as rare crafting schematics and resources?

 

Why not have entire PvE planets where the mobs (let's say White Maw pirates) have AI and actually assault your faction's bases as your faction struggles to regain control of that sector of the world? Why not have points of interest on this planet that must be captured and held from the AI (that gets progressively more challenging) that give you control of valuable resource nodes or maybe even access to extremely difficult but short dungeons and/or raids.

 

On top of this, why not have an alternate advancement system (or turn the Legacy system into this) that gives even more purpose to playing after the level cap? You could open this up and make the rewards be new abilities (including the ability to equip blasters as Jedi/Sith, etc.) in addition to statistical bonuses and other perks.

 

You can do so much more than be yet another mediocre grind-or-quit MMO, yet you've chosen to go down this road. Your stated goals are to pump out more daily quests, flashpoints, and operations for people to grind. Is that it? Do you really think that will hold a long-term audience when every single game that has attempted to emulate this World of Warcraft style of end game has lost a majority of their subscribers after a short time?

 

I'm very disappointed with this game the level cap. I want this game to succeed, but the lack of wisdom and apparent lethargy on the part of the developers genuinely makes me angry. I'm tired of seeing the genre stagnate with nothing but loot treadmill after loot treadmill being released. It makes me wish I had gone into game design rather than architecture. I honestly expected better from the people that brought us Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, and other great titles. Please say you'll actually do more than ensure this is just another mediocre game in an ocean of mediocre games.

 

*Flopped meaning suffered massive subscription losses shortly after launch. See: Rift, Warhammer, AION (NA), Age of Conan, etc.

 

TL;DR: Please innovate. Don't release nothing but operations and flashpoints. Use the IP to its fullest. Make open-world content for PvE/PvP players that is dynamic, engaging, and not grind-based. The longest-lasting content is player-impacted (dynamic) content, not scripted flashpoints and operations that we blow through in a fraction of the time you spent developing it.

 

Frankly atm this genre MMORPG is stuck here is nothing new and innovating to do about it.

 

You always gonna have daily quests at cap level, always gonna be a global reset over the raids/dungeons, there is always the progression base on level and grind to the cap lvl masked or less by the devs and your action as player dont have any implication over the world. You wont cause mighty empires fall nor raise new ones, you wont become the most wanted villain in the world nor the hero that saves the world from ancient evil that just woke and brings armageddon to the gates of your world.

 

The evil you just kill it will be next week up like nothing happen and a new race to kill for loot will begin till the boredom takes over. Then new games come no matter if your a jedi, night elf, dragon raider, amazon, barbarian, arkadian, shaman its all the same. Deja-vu takes over again.

 

You gonna be just one of many 'racing' towards new gear and bigger e-peen, as simple as Pink Floyd say in their song...''All in all you were all just bricks in the wall''

 

Same opinion I've posted on other thread similar to this.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Phenyr

[saminaobx]

Has the chance to be an amazing game, shame Bioware won't take action.

[Duckroll]

Really good thread

[Sillybill]

I won't lie, I read the title and skimmed the OP, but I agree with the idea this game could be much much more than it is. Now, I'm not saying the game is "bad" by any stretch IMHO. To me, we're at a decent quality, solid foundation of a game, with a great chance at growth. No, i'm not saying the game is perfect. Nothing is. But to me, the games got lots of room to grow to much greater heights. I'm quite anxious to see what is coming down the line.

[Gun-ho-Gun]

They'd innovate if there was profit in it. Gamers sure love to plead for innovation but they rarely support it financially when it actually comes around.

 

Name me one wow clone in the past years that still retain at least 1 million subs. Game company should know by now copying wow doesn't mean instant success. Yet they just keep pushing out wow clone. How's that even financially reasonable?

[BadgeredMushroom]

Name me one wow clone in the past years that still retain at least 1 million subs. Game company should know by now copying wow doesn't mean instant success. Yet they just keep pushing out wow clone. How's that even financially reasonable?

 

This is what I ask myself every time another one of these clones hits the market. Sure enough, they lose most of their people after a short while. You can't out loot treadmill the king of loot treadmills.

[BossALike]

Very good thread.

 

The game has stopped at lvl 50. Can't the story continue (which was very good!) after lvl 50. There is no meaing with grinding weekly/daily Q. Its not fun. And Ilium is a big joke.

[Paganini]

Not only are more and more players growing absolutely sick of this lazy end game design, it takes far more time and effort to develop static, scripted content than it does for players to consume it. You'll never outpace the hardcore and/or the competent mainstream players.

 

This. A million times this.

[Fidasaind]

I think the DAoC spin on PvP (kind of what you described above) has long been missing from a quality MMO. The issue is with population balance right now it would make any world PvP lopsided. DAoC resolved this by having 3 realms so one always acted as a wildcard for attacks... They also gave people added reason to play the underdog realm when the balance got way out of wack.

 

I do hope a company (Should be BioWare seeing they absorbed Mythic) does start down the path of meaningful PvP again and expand on the framework DAoC first developed.

 

Some other things that Mythic did well in that game:

 

We all had OUR realms. It gave you a sense of ownership. It lead to a sense of pride and wanting to defend YOUR lands.

 

Do we really care about those objectives on Ilum or did we really even care about the RvR lakes in WAR? Those were a shared area. Now if Imps were raiding Coruscant maybe things would be different.

 

And the third realm was an automatic population balance. One side may get larger than the others, but rarely was 1 side larger than the 2 others combined.

 

It is amazing how well PvP worked in a game released in 2001 and then seeing how far from it the same company has come in the past 10 or 11 years. I realize that they are trying to attract a different crowd. But I think that you can sell the concept of RvR to even the "WoW players".

[Omnifiend]

I am perfectly content with the WoW style loot treadmill. I didn't mind it in EQ, I didn't mind it in WoW, and I wouldn't mind it here, EXCEPT:

 

For the unpolished, uncustomizable, complete travesty of a UI. If a game with this budget ships with this UI, compared to say Rift's stock UI, that does not bode well for the rest of this game.

 

The crippling bugs in practically every single operation and flashpoint.

 

Warzone bugs, EVERYWHERE.

 

No attention paid to possible faction imbalance. My first thought six months ago was how are they going to make sure population stays balanced?

 

Actually releasing Ilum with the current population imbalances. As soon as they announced it I facepalmed. Who could possibly think that was a good idea?

 

EVERY SINGLE currency for endgame loot is annoying as hell. I should NEVER run a zone and get 3 different currencies. There should be an easy to understand and logical progression in loot.

 

If I had my way, they would refund everyone their money, pull the game, put a very serious coat of polish on it and then re-release the same game they have now...only polished and fun to play. Not a bug ridden convoluted mess of poorly implemented ideas.

 

I have great hopes for GW2 and their stated design goals, they seem perfect to me. But I also had great hopes for this game, and it let me down in every single way except for actually leveling my character. That was the only fun thing about this steaming pile.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Omnifiend

[Gungan]

Personally I think they introduced 124+ gear wayyyyy too soon in the game.

 

6 weeks after launch and people already have 136 gear... come on. 6 weeks and you've already made every item except daily comm/pvp loot obsolete.

 

They should have stayed at 124 for at least 3 months so a good number of people are playing on a level field, expecially in PVP, and more especially Ilum.

 

6 weeks is the expected lifespan of a single player game played to completion, not an MMO with supposedly competitive multiplayer elements.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Gungan

[justamemory]

this is what business does.

 

it takes potential, chokes it with currency, then follows the path of least resistance to the land of maximum profit.

 

creativity doesn't make it past the drawing board. to be nothing more than mental-masturbatory heresay.

 

it gets sterilized through optimization.

 

gone is the sense of aesthetic grandeur and artisanship.

 

in its place is rectangular sophistry.

Edited January 26, 2012 by justamemory

[Proto]

Great post OP!!!!

 

 

One of my ideas with the whole innovation thing is to use FLEET TO ITS FULLEST POTENTIAL!!!!

 

1) Every week or few days or daily (whatever) the Imperial Fleet crosses into the same space as Republic Fleet ships.

 

2) This causes massive panic on fleet. Red alert happens, red lights, man your battle stations, etc.

 

3) Players can then get into their ships for actual PVP in space

 

or

 

4) Players that don't have great ships can man battlestations onboard the fleet ship's outer cannons.

 

5) The victor can then land on the opposing team's fleet and go through some PVE event or more PVP or whatever to claim a final prize or bonus valor or SOMETHING.

 

 

I really would love to see new and exciting things using existing stuff you made, Bioware. The op is right. Right now you just copied the same old boring stuff once you hit 50 that none of us are really after anymore.

[Enspik]

I came to say that I agree 100%.

 

BioWare, PLEASE take this thread seriously. Endgame in SWTOR is becoming another mindless, neverending gear hunt. Can you PLEASE implement some FUN into the endgame? Put in dynamic and changing PvP worlds that focus on HAVING FUN, instead of grinding commendations.

 

You showed us that you can design a fun and engaging leveling portion of the game, now show us that you can do the same to endgame.

[BadgeredMushroom]

You showed us that you can design a fun and engaging leveling portion of the game, now show us that you can do the same to endgame.

 

This. Thanks for the support!

[Ajudicated]

Some really good ideas OP.

 

All high level planet should have a purpose even when level cap is reached. One way to achieve this is to make incentives (to both sides and internally) to take and hold areas etc.

 

Your ideas cover this.

 

BW could have made an epic MMO, but instead they have gone for the safe tried and true.

 

I like the game for the most part, but I don't feel like part of the conflict. I guess that's due to the fact that there is no persistence or indication you or your faction has made an impact on the Galaxy.

 

There is no collective "we must crush our enemies and win this war" or "defend our borders at all costs".

 

Your ideas will go away to solve this for both PvE and PvP worlds.

[Hawtubb]

this game is nothing more than a star wars based theme park. There is nothing unique or original, in fact, its not even top of the line in terms of having competitive features with other theme park mmos.

 

the grind was neat but after you get to 50 all those "amazing" planets are useless and you are stuck hanging around your faction hub, or doing dailys for commendations.

 

the crafting is about as boring and cookie cutter as it gets.

 

Tunnel space combat is just a total joke considering how well SWG did it with jump to light speed in 2003!!!!!!!! 9 years ago they did that with nothing near the budget of swtor.

 

and then there is illum.... just blow that planet up and start over.

[Ajudicated]

Yeah I know what you mean Hawtub

 

They need to utilize as many of the planets as they can for end game content, else whats the point of having a huge Galaxy with a range of awesome planets and immersive areas, if only to niche end game players to 2 them.

 

Is it just me or do they have outdated game designers working for them. I would have thought the first question they would have asked the Designers and the project team is

 

"How can we keep this game and its environments immersive, engaging and satisfying for players"

 

If flashpoints, and raids was all they could come up with, well you have really got to question the Management team and in particular the game designers.

 

Cant blame the devs, in the end they only implement what they are told to do. They can raise ideas, which I believe they would have, but in the end its always up to the Management team (PM, Lead designers, Shareholders) that gives the yes and no to game mechanics.

 

If this game isn't as successful as BW/EA predicted it would be (and in my opinion could be) they should be the ones held accountable.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Ajudicated