Orizuru Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If you are not rolling for the item as an UPGRADE it should be a greed roll. And a STR based item is never an upgrade over an AIM based item. Think of this way... Do you NEED to change the look of your armor to play better? If the answer is no, then you WANT to change the look of your armor and should roll greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoggyMack Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Think of this way... Do you NEED to change the look of your armor to play better? Yes. Some people specifically run flashpoints for orange drops based on wanting to create a consistent look for their character. It may actually help them play better because they visualize their character as being better. It's why armor customization is as popular as it is. As ZenBones says: "Need it if you really want it. " Which is the point of pushing the button. Others in the party can push the button too. It's a really fair and equitable way of distributing the loot. Edited January 17, 2012 by SnoggyMack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felioats Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If it's an upgrade for someone with its current mods, roll Greed. If it isn't, but you like the look of it, roll Need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therrak Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If I was in that group and the Jugg needed it, I would roll greed. Common sense in my opinion and if any one got butt hurt about it I would ignore them after saying a few words. I agree to an extent. If the Juggernaut was already equipped with a fully upgraded orange piece in that slot, he'd be rolling just for looks too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aimorai Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) For orange armor with different stats than your primary stat, you're rolling *entirely* for the look. The armor rating of any orange item has to do with the mod that's in the "Armoring" slot. If you pull out that mod to replace it with another, you're negating the "I rolled need because the armoring is better" argument -- because you're pulling out the armoring. Sure, you could replace it with an equivalent mod with the stat that you want (trading an AR 90 strength mod with an AR 90 Aim mod) -- but since you're pulling the mod out in the first place, it doesn't make sense to roll on an AR with a stat you don't use. Personally, I understand rolling on orange items for looks because the look of my character is important to me, but rolling for the look should come behind rolling for the stats if someone else in the group wants the piece due to the mods therein. Edited January 17, 2012 by Aimorai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nezroy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Really, the more convoluted reason I disagree is purely about social expectations. When a group forms, people from most MMO experiences are naturally going to base their expectations about loot drops based on the classes that are in the group with them. If there is no one of the same class as them in the group, they are automatically going to start thinking in their head that if their class' gear drops, it is going to go to them by default. This is a fairly normal MMO expectation; some people avoid groups with the same class as them specifically for this reason. I know people have this expectation and YOU know people have this expectation. It's essentially an MMO social convention. Now, orange gear potentially breaks the underlying reasons for this expectation and social convention, but realistically the community at large has not really had a chance to adjust to that concept yet. Not helped by the fact that, as I said before, the loot window does not show orange tooltips properly. By violating this convention and need rolling on something cross-class, you will be perceived as a jerk. Period. In fact, some folks might even call that the definition of BEING a jerk (that is, intentionally violating social expectations that you are plainly aware of). The reality is that there is no rational, logical reason we can defend the expectation as it exists now, especially not with the presence of orange gear. Anyone can argue that appearance and orange gear collecting is just as important as stats. And, in fact, the convention may change over time as a result. But as it stands now, one month from launch, there are years of prior class-based, random loot drop MMO experiences that have established a pre-existing social norm that cross-class rolling is a jerk move. If you don't want it to cause drama, simply let people know ahead of time what you plan to do. Explain that since orange gear is moddable, and since appearance is vitally important to you, that you are going to need roll on orange gear even if it means throwing out the mods someone else might have benefited from. That will allow them to adjust their personal expectations accordingly at the start of the instance. Edited January 17, 2012 by nezroy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneDRTYrusn Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Orange Armor is in the game for the sole purpose of LOOKS. If you like the looks, you have no concern for the mods installed on it, since those can easily be replaced. The only exception is if it's class-specific, which I've never seen anything like that drop anyways, so it should be a non-issue. The only thing I wouldn't condone is if you roll need for an alt or a companion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi_Wannabe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Lets say I'm a BH in a group in which orange heavy armor drops. The armor is better than what I have, but the mods within it aren't centered around my primary stat, aim, but rather something like strength, which I have no use for. To me, rolling "need" would be acceptable, because the mods within are easily replaced with aim items, and the Armor Rating of the armor is otherwise useful to me, and superior to my current gear. Do you agree or disagree? The armor rating on the armor will change when you replace the Armoring mod. So what you're saying is "This item has a better armor rating than my armor, so I'm going to take it and remove the armor rating from it and replace it." If you're going to replace the armor rating on the item you just took, why not just replace the armor rating on what you're already wearing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You realize that a class's primary stat enhances all of their abilities right? If you roll on something that has a stat your class doesn't use, you get NOTHING from it. If you do this while levelling....wow....actually, everyone has a secondary stat and you do get stuff from it, just a not as much as your primary stat. we're talking about an orange piece of gear. That can be an appropriately statted piece with 11 commendations, less if I know a cybertech . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyemortal Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'd let that roll off your back....were he right you wouldn't have created the thread to ask the question, you'd have simply daid "f*ck it, I'll do as I please." Now, I didn't realize that the mods in the armor effect the armor rating. I assumed that oranges received at higher level tended to have higher armor ratings. Where on the mod does it state how much it increases armor by? I haven't seen that. Armor Raiting is derived from the Armor mod. If you put a ****** Aim armor mod in the orange pice guess what happens... the item level drops as does the armor. You only roll on it if no one else needs it. Don't be stupid and greedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyDale Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Lets say I'm a BH in a group in which orange heavy armor drops. The armor is better than what I have, but the mods within it aren't centered around my primary stat, aim, but rather something like strength, which I have no use for. To me, rolling "need" would be acceptable, because the mods within are easily replaced with aim items, and the Armor Rating of the armor is otherwise useful to me, and superior to my current gear. Do you agree or disagree? DISAGREE. Oranges are defined by their modifcations, so of course you should not roll need on orange gear that doesn't have the appropriate modifcations for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Even more importantly, someone who can actually wear the orange armor might actually WANT that specific orange piece precisely for its appearance. This point makes 0 sense. What if the bounty hunter wanted the sith warrior robe piece, specifically for it's look? we're talking about an orange piece that the BH can equip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 DISAGREE. Oranges are defined by their modifcations, so of course you should not roll need on orange gear that doesn't have the appropriate modifcations for you.not true at all. THe mods are totally replacable. Oranges are defined by their look, and the fact that they are moddable. Nothing else. If you don't have an orange piece in that slot, then rolling need is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calsidian Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If this situation comes up I simply ask in chat ahead of time if the other person has a problem with me rolling. If they do, then I concede the item to them. If they don't, then hey, no debate. You're rolling for both the armor and the mods contained within it. You gain partial benefit from the items, they gain full benefit. Their need is greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theothersteve Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 By definition, it's impossible to find orange gear with better stats than you currently have, if you intend to replace the Armoring anyway. That being said, orange gear is its own mess. I wouldn't necessarily fault anyone for any roll they make on orange gear. Best to discuss it in chat first, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanyen Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 not true at all. THe mods are totally replacable. Oranges are defined by their look, and the fact that they are moddable. Nothing else. If you don't have an orange piece in that slot, then rolling need is appropriate. So are you going to pay to take out the mods and give it to the guy that could actually use them? If not then you are taking something you will not use away from someone who would use it, which makes you a jerk. The way your character looks shouldn't trump another player getting an actual benefit from the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
profaneascension Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Anyway, the point of my little story is that you should agree to a certain set of loot rules before starting the Flashpoint. It used to be that the item goes to whomever can use it best, but in BioWare's infinite wisdom, they've introduced so many variables that any excuse to roll Need on an item is a valid one. Of course, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever letting people know that I will roll only on items that I can use, even though in some people's deranged minds (read: trolls) this makes me greedy because I automatically win items meant for my class (and disregarding that I am conceding all other items to the rest of my group). Whether the proponents of the opposing philosophy are willing to make their intentions clear before a group starts is another matter entirely. Edited January 17, 2012 by profaneascension Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AutomaticBob Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If i were the Sith in this group, I would need on the item if it had better stats than what I was wearing. If the BH needed on it cause he liked the way it looked, without talking to the group, I would drop group and let him tank the rest of the instance. You like the way it looks, but the main stat does nothing for you = GREED It's main stat is better than what you are wearing = NEED Pretty obvious as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyDale Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 not true at all. THe mods are totally replacable. Oranges are defined by their look, and the fact that they are moddable. Nothing else. If you don't have an orange piece in that slot, then rolling need is appropriate. You have a ridiculous logic. All armor is "replaceable". So by your logic you are free to roll on anything you want rather it has stats you actually need or don't need... All oranges have basically 0 stats if you remove all of the modifcations. They are therefore DEFFINITELY defined by their modifactions. Greed/Need is about stats of the item, not the looks. If you rolled need on an orange that had stats I needed and stats you didn't need and your defense was you "liked the way it looked" I would cuss you out, and rightfully so. Orange armor is all about the modifications. When you roll on oranges, that is basically what you are rolling on - the modifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nezroy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This point makes 0 sense. What if the bounty hunter wanted the sith warrior robe piece, specifically for it's look? we're talking about an orange piece that the BH can equip. Yeah I know, I missed the part where he was a class that could equip the orange piece. My coffee-starved brain initially thought he was talking about the case where he would, for instance, need roll on heavy armor as a medium armor user just so he could take the enhancement and maybe mod as improvements for his own orange gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanorDM Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I know people have this expectation and YOU know people have this expectation. It's essentially an MMO social convention. Actually that's an assumption on your part. I played very little WoW and never had much experience with loot drama. Plus there's a lot of people playing TOR who are new to MMOs. So the above statement is a fairly large assumption to make, because not everyone will know this expectation exists. Then as you point out, logically orange gear does not fit into this expectation at all, because of the very nature of the item itself. Orange items' greatest value is appearance, the mods in them are at best nice, but very easy to replace. Myself I'd have no problem rolling need on a orange item if I wanted it, because in my mind orange items value is purely in the appearance. Which actually brings up a question... Are mods bind on equip? I've never looked so I'm not sure. But if they are then even if the item were a upgrade stat wise for someone else, that doesn't give them more rights to the item, because you could give them the mods that they find useful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordadamar Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I would agree, But Item level on ORANGES is NOT based on what level you received it... Meaning Modable armor / weapons do NOT have a set level the armor level is not set by the Item itself... You could take a level 10 orange and a level 30 orange Change out all the mods and have the Same armor value.... Orange items are probably the only thing in the game that actually lets you customize your look.... In my guild groups we dont NbG orange items for what it appears to be. We NbG for the mods and mods only unless you really like the look... I am level 48 assassin and like the look of the armor I had ( all orange or purple ), SO I replaced every mod to 48-50 mods to get a 40% add from surge. and all the other stats are the same if not better than any other level 48 oranges that drops... I would say if you need then need but dont need a the basis of base stats cause the has nothing to do with the item.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBones Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You like the way it looks, but the main stat does nothing for you = GREED It's main stat is better than what you are wearing = NEED Decent logic, but I still disagree. To me: Going to sell it = Greed. Going to use it = Need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nezroy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Actually that's an assumption on your part. I played very little WoW and never had much experience with loot drama. Plus there's a lot of people playing TOR who are new to MMOs. So the above statement is a fairly large assumption to make, because not everyone will know this expectation exists. Well, now you know And the phrasing, even the very existence, of the OPs question (who was the target of my "YOU" in that post) implies that he also knew that there is some doubt as to how it would be perceived. Then as you point out, logically orange gear does not fit into this expectation at all, because of the very nature of the item itself. Orange items' greatest value is appearance, the mods in them are at best nice, but very easy to replace. Myself I'd have no problem rolling need on a orange item if I wanted it, because in my mind orange items value is purely in the appearance. Of course, totally correct. But the point of my post was to establish that logic HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. There is no logical argument that can convince everyone to agree on a single definition of "need" anyway, and particularly not in a virtual game with virtual items. Which is why I tried to frame it in a completely different way... logical or not, the MMO social convention about cross-class need rolling exists as an amalgamation of shared experience from many MMOs over many years, and MOST MMO veterans would agree on the existence of that convention. To try and argue that we should suddenly up-end that convention because of some fuzziness about the logic behind who can actually use orange gear and whether appearance is equivalent to stats is completely moot in the face of how people actually work. Now the convention may (and probably should) change over time to accommodate the new reality of orange gear, but it's not going to happen over night. More importantly, no one should be surprised if they get yelled at for violating that convention, even if they happen to think it's logically bass-ackwards. Which actually brings up a question... Are mods bind on equip? I've never looked so I'm not sure. But if they are then even if the item were a upgrade stat wise for someone else, that doesn't give them more rights to the item, because you could give them the mods that they find useful... I'm fairly certain they are BoP when the shell piece is also BoP, preventing the ability to trade them off. But I'm not 100% sure about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaktoe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Oh look! Another "Justify my douchebag behavior." topic. How original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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