Indureiner Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Hi all, and especially Bioware and LucasArt directors Here is a little feedback from someone who likes to play MMO's Ive taken my Assasin to level 39 now. What a great class story, well done. And the graphics is mostly great BUT BUT BUT........ As i see it this game will suffer greatly from missing complexity. I dont know if its due to some marketing people who want the kids to be happy making the game to simple so they wouldent be frustrated. Maybe it is me who like games to be rough, hard and challenging if im to stay interested. But as i see it, what we have now isent much more than players being erind boys on different planets and a bit of to well organized pvp besides the class story line. I have seen the same tendency in other games like Everquest (1 & 2) and WOW. Stuff gets easier and easier and nothing is a stake when you play the game. You dont risk losing your stuff in pvp. No matter what choices you take in pve there is no risk at all. I wonder if noone at a company deciding to invest that substantial amount of money ever sit down doing a little research about what makes us play games. For me its challenges, hardship and a good community overcumbing those challenges. that being a guild or a group or the like. Thats why i play MMO's not single player games. And dont know the process that makes this happen in a game company. Maybe you want it like that, but i have a feeling that you should sack the "we need the kid segment" salesdirectors. Because they will make gamers migrate straight out of the servers when there is nothing to do, moving on to the next game with a great story and even better graphics. Di you ever consider why Eve online live in the top ten MMO for more than five years now even it has a stoneage graphics engine?. Its rugged, hard, pvp is merciless. The complexity of crafting is nearly impossible. And the complexity of fitting a ship is even worse. Besides that you can loose all your stuff in 30 seconds. Im sure its a deliberate choice, and some may say i bought the wrong game for my playing style. That might very well be the case. but im pretty sure that many will agree with me. You have to risk loosing something before something can be considered a game. Otherwise its just en environment. Thank you anyway for a great experience and the dedication and commitment to the original StarWars Story and atmosphere. But honestly, i think you need to go into a closed room and consider whats next!!!!!! I will not go into detail about the failed market system and the failed crafting and so on, thats not my main message in this post even it really needs improving. It is not the core message in this post. Best Otherness - 39 Sith Assasin PS. Dident anyone ever write a thesis on what makes gamers comitted to a game? Edited January 17, 2012 by Indureiner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_G Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 They are deliberately trying to make the game very casual friendly because that's how they will make the most money. It's the right decision, imo. Eve is an interesting example: yes it has won lots of awards and has a dedicated hardcore community, but that community is quite tiny and doesn't generate much revenue. CCP is currently laying off staff because it can't keep enough subscribers. I'm sure EA thinks of Eve as a good example of what not to do, and for good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typeslice Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You can't fault companies for trying to appeal to more people. They are in this to make money after all (even if the vast majority of people on the boards don't realize it). Eve may still be in the top 10, but there is a huge disparity between 1 - 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty-Wan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 SWTOR = Checkers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 For me its challenges, hardship and a good community overcumbing those challenges. that being a guild or a group or the like. Thats why i play MMO's not single player games. Yup, same for me. I believe the reason you see so much turnover in MMO games these days is there is basically nothing to them. Everything is easy so you develop no attachment to the game, your character or your community, and people go from one game to the next without a second thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zgabu Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 SWTOR = Checkers I have fun with Checkers. I also have fun with Chess. Why can't they be seen as 2 different games which one can play at their leisure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Di you ever consider why Eve online live in the top ten MMO for more than five years now even it has a stoneage graphics engine?. Its rugged, hard, pvp is merciless. The complexity of crafting is nearly impossible. And the complexity of fitting a ship is even worse. Besides that you can loose all your stuff in 30 seconds. For what it does, Eve is a very good game. however, have you considered why for all of this time, WoW has continued to hold millions more in subscribers? Eve is a niche game made for a niche audience. Keep in mind, niche != bad, niche simply means niche. I've played plenty of great games knowing the world at large would never hear of them, much less play them(mainly tabletop games in this category). TOR goes after a casual audience. Eve goes a more hardcore route. I don't think either game would benefit from trying to be like the other game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyradder Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) LOL...EvE Online has much nicer graphics than ToR does at present. They've been augmenting EvE graphics slowly for years and most of it is present in game now. Granted they aren't rendering planetary surface environments...but the ship graphics, and space graphics are much higher resolution than ToR. The avatar graphics are much better too, actually. Your point still stands of course. Edited January 17, 2012 by Vyradder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Di you ever consider why Eve online live in the top ten MMO for more than five years now even it has a stoneage graphics engine?. Its rugged, hard, pvp is merciless. The complexity of crafting is nearly impossible. And the complexity of fitting a ship is even worse. Besides that you can loose all your stuff in 30 seconds. EVE online is really niche. Bioware is going for the mass market and the money. For casuals, EVE online is a ganking, unfun nightmare. $15 /mo x 850,000 casuals > $15 /mo x 350,000 hardcore playing awesome game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yup, same for me. I believe the reason you see so much turnover in MMO games these days is there is basically nothing to them. Everything is easy so you develop no attachment to the game, your character or your community, and people go from one game to the next without a second thought. You see so much turnover is because for most gamers, moving on eventually is a natural part of gaming. Your average gamer doesn't cling to and rely upon one single source for their entertainment, and instead adds a bit of variety to their gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhedgehog Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 If you want increased difficulty, it isnt hard to get it. Play without your companion. play without stims or heal packs. There are easy ways of making the game tougher for your self. Of course, if you want to make the game tougher for other people, you wont have much luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamerInDallas Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I agree that complexity is a big part of what makes games "fun". But you "really" have to ease people into it. Ideally, you would have many "levels" to the game where each gets progressively harder to learn. There "is" some of that here, but nothing that isn't completly typical for an MMO. Crafting for example, is an additional level that is not necessary to the main game, but can substantially add to the experience of the main game. Generally, once I "figure a game out" I stop playing; when I see the algorythms and pseudo-code, rather than feel like I'm in another world, I stop playing. That's one of the reasons I haven't played any MMO for more than a couple of months since I played the original EQ for a year every day. But everyone is on a different "level". This game has to be easy for kids to pick up, but at the same time sophisticated to entertain adults. But I guess the main reason you don't see more complexity is that it takes "vision" to imagine it and it take the money to finance it. Corporations that develop video games tend to lack "vision" because everything is designed by "committee" and they don't want to take risks that might not make profits for the shareholders. And they are probably trying to spend as little as they can to get those profits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) You see so much turnover is because for most gamers, moving on eventually is a natural part of gaming. Your average gamer doesn't cling to and rely upon one single source for their entertainment, and instead adds a bit of variety to their gameplay. Yeah, I see these less interesting games leading to exactly that lack of dedication to games. Games did develop much more loyalty from players in the past, at least the ones I've been associated with. Not uncommon to see players dedicate a decade or more to a title. That's rare with games of late. Edited January 17, 2012 by Vydor_HC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zannis Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm playing a level 45 Sniper. I have to use all of my utility and cooldowns to survive. The difficulty of the game is fine in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalkaii Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 They're aimed for the masses man. You can't have the masses with a difficult game. I can go for a harder game no problems, but it would mean cutting out a lot of the player base . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicalPremise Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm playing a level 45 Sniper. I have to use all of my utility and cooldowns to survive. The difficulty of the game is fine in my opinion. ....really? At level 40 my Sniper is so OP it's becoming boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurnea Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yeah, I see these less interesting games leading to exactly that lack of dedication to games. They're video games, not girlfriends. There's nothing wrong with having some variety to what you enjoy gamewise, the same as with any other media. Games did develop much more loyalty from players in the past, at least the ones I've been associated with. Not uncommon to see players dedicate a decade or more to a title. That's rare with games of late. I've been playing games since the 80's, and back in the Nintendo era it was indeed common to eventually stop playing certain games and pick up new ones eventually, and this trend went well into the 90's, the 00's, and into today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orkayl Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yeah, I see these less interesting games leading to exactly that lack of dedication to games. Games did develop much more loyalty from players in the past, at least the ones I've been associated with. Not uncommon to see players dedicate a decade or more to a title. That's rare with games of late. That's because most older MMOs A) took a lot longer to progress in so that players were much more committed and attached when they reached level cap and B) most of them had ways for players to impact their characters and the game world in a meaningful way that didn't 'reset' every content update a la the gear carousel. Funny thing is the 'WoW' model only ever worked for WoW and generating box sales for new MMOs. One day developers will realize that the formula alone wasn't the key to WoW's success and that success can't be replicated by trying to mimic WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 They are deliberately trying to make the game very casual friendly because that's how they will make the most money. It's the right decision, imo. Eve is an interesting example: yes it has won lots of awards and has a dedicated hardcore community, but that community is quite tiny and doesn't generate much revenue. CCP is currently laying off staff because it can't keep enough subscribers. I'm sure EA thinks of Eve as a good example of what not to do, and for good reason. EVE actually has 300k+ of loyal subscribers, something EA could probably never dream of. Most of their games in the last several years I pick up, play, drop. I don't even pay for most/any of them because I can either play them at a friend's or try a demo, which is usually enough to portray the crap inside. Not saying it's less cash the way EA does it though. Oh and CCP is currently laying off staff because they didn't listen to their community and did a load of crap with the subscription money, rather than fixing bugs and making the game better. Walking in stations, while a cool gimmick, is still a gimmick. And yes, I own several monocles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilbyte Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 ....really? At level 40 my Sniper is so OP it's becoming boring. Got my BH to lvl 44 and retired because was bored walking thru the content, so I made a sniper instead. Got my sniper to 43 and retired her because felt no challenge, so last night started a inquisitor.. surely this must be the one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monjiay Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Otherness - 39 Sith Assasin PS. Dident anyone ever write a thesis on what makes gamers comitted to a game? Great post that I entirely agree with. I just wanted to comment on that thesis question. I remember when WoW came out there was a paper I read that went into great detail about what makes a strong MMO. At the top of the list was a strong economy and constant communication between the players and the developers. I'll address the economy. Without a strong economy there is obviously nothing to buy, no reason to craft, no reason to play and accumulate money and eventually no reason to log on. Bioware completely missed the mark on this one. There is no economy. When I think of an MMORPG, I think of a game that creates an alternate world. Alternate worlds need economies or they are just games, not worlds. Just another in a very, very long list of this game.s failures. I wanted so badly to love this game and do love it as a single player game. It may meet the technical definition of an MMORPG, but it doesn't have the heart or soul of the genre. I'm not sure why I responded to this post, it will probably be deleted even though it's very well written and thought out, but they also missed on the other very important MMORPG feature. Communication with the playerbase. They'll probably see your post and delete it, when it should probably be a sticky on their private forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiraiya_Goketsu Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Got my BH to lvl 44 and retired because was bored walking thru the content, so I made a sniper instead. Got my sniper to 43 and retired her because felt no challenge, so last night started a inquisitor.. surely this must be the one... Nope, try again! Or be a healer, and hope you forget to gear your companion, then maybe. If that fails roll Sent/Mar and use only the service droid as a companion, lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baudrillard Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Di you ever consider why Eve online live in the top ten MMO for more than five years now even it has a stoneage graphics engine?. Its rugged, hard, pvp is merciless. The complexity of crafting is nearly impossible. And the complexity of fitting a ship is even worse. Besides that you can loose all your stuff in 30 seconds. Man, a game is only hardcore, when you have to create a new Charakter once you die. Losing all your stuff in 30 seconds is for girls! And you consider your self a hardcore fan. Hahaha! /sarcasm off The only negative thing in SWTOR for me at the moment is the missing fluidity and responsiveness of the PvP battles. Honestly I dont care about the rest of it since is quite ok. And you know why? Because PvP is the only thing able to come close to RL-Complexity... Edited January 17, 2012 by Baudrillard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) They're video games, not girlfriends. There's nothing wrong with having some variety to what you enjoy gamewise, the same as with any other media. I've been playing games since the 80's, and back in the Nintendo era it was indeed common to eventually stop playing certain games and pick up new ones eventually, and this trend went well into the 90's, the 00's, and into today. And? We're talking MMO's here, not PONG. They are designed to be social as much as anything else and to be played for long terms hence the monthly subscription. And you're ranting has nothing to do with my point, video games had more players dedicated to longer time frame back when the games were more "difficult". Gamers aren't always flighty, they can and do pick titles and stick with them if those titles provide a reason to. Edited January 17, 2012 by Vydor_HC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matty-Wan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm playing a level 45 Sniper. I have to use all of my utility and cooldowns to survive. The difficulty of the game is fine in my opinion. This is about "complexity" not "difficulty". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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