Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Nexusissei]

Dude get off your horse for a moment.

 

I have stated several times, exactly what I feel about this issue, you are the one going on and on about math and trying to force your opinion. You are so narrowly focused on the idea that you must be correct that you don't want to allow anyone else their opinion. So again, you will not convince me through your arguments when my direct experience tells me otherwise.

 

Again, I support the combat log, but no I do not support the need for a dmg meter or recount and I think that anyone so adamantly trying to claim that the lack of a damage meter is a game breaker is just making an issue out of nothing.

 

I never said that it was a game breaker. I am, however, saying that it does get information that you otherwise couldn't in ways you otherwise couldn't.

 

You were arguing against this.

 

While I respect your opinion, this isn't a subjective issue -- it's a binary, objective issue that has a right and a wrong.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nexusissei

[Navakai]

It saddens me to see how ... well ....lost for lack of better words, alot of this community is.

 

 

Without community support for better tools, You're going to kill this game guys. Mark my words.

 

There's absolutely no reason why a guild leader, or raid leader shouldn't be able to monitor performance. Any argument against this is just plain crazy. How insecure are you all?

 

 

 

If you're biggest concern is getting kicked from a group because your dps is ****..... learn to do **** properly then.

 

How people are willing to argue 'no, lets just all hide the real data, because we would prefer to have fun than see the truth' is beyond me. Talk about playing with blinkers on.

 

 

Yes... lets cater an entire game, and the concept of raiding, to the insecure and typically horrid players, because they also happen to be sensitive.

 

 

I don't care how well written an argument is. If you're against damage meters, or raid analysis tools you're a bad player, and insecure. Period.

 

But go ahead, retaliate and let us laugh at you all some more.

 

 

 

P.S The combat log was taken out of beta, because Bioware couldn't get the game to run with a 'passable' framerate while it was activated.

 

It was horribly optimized and the data wasn't parsed, or filtered, so... they took it out.

 

 

If and when they figure out how to get it the hell back in the game.... these tools will be made available, whether you uber casuals like it or not. So argue and look silly now... it will make for amusing times when we go back through old posts, and laugh at you again.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Navakai

[Navakai]

Edit.

 

I would also like to add, alot of raiders raid purely for the competition/ This is a HUGE aspect of community and raiding. SItes like elitist jerks ect are completely supported by this very thing. And like it or not, sites and communities like this are incredibly good for games. World of Warcraft would not have been half as successful as it was, if it wasn't for community sites like EJ, ect.

 

Without the appropriate tools, or the ability to even theory craft, you're alienating yourself. This is not good for the game. And to the guy who was claiming he knows his optimal rotation based off what numbers he see's on his screen. Dude.... you really need to stop talking, you're making yourself look silly.

 

Can you tell me what does more damage on a stand still fight between different specs within a classes tree? No you can't. You can guess..... but you don't know.

 

Do you really want game content that is so incredibly easy, it doesn't matter what you run, how you play, or what rotation you use? Because that essentially what all these lolcasuals are stating.

 

When you have content on farm, and as you gear up, it often does become a competition between players to see who can best one another. This is fun for anyone with an ounce of confidence and gaming ability.

 

I'm sorry so many of you can't understand this, Do you shy away from competitive situations in real life also? Cover your eyes when you poop?

[Wasbeer]

Combat logs should be for personal use only and safe from prying eyes. The public combat meters are too prone to bringing out the worst in people. I've posted on enough of these threads, I'm sick of them.

[Mcfondles]

I am against a damage meter in the game..

[terminova]

Without community support for better tools, You're going to kill this game guys. Mark my words.

 

I don't care how well written an argument is. If you're against damage meters, or raid analysis tools you're a bad player, and insecure. Period.

 

 

All you are is a doomsayer, and state stuff that isn't true, just your blind opinion.

 

 

I'm a good player.

 

 

I'm against damage meters because of what they do to groups and how they feed the elitist mentality. You want them for raids, but the fact is they will affect more than just your precious raids, the effect will filter down into the other groups as well.

[Berazad]

Recount has a huge potential to be abused as it was in WoW however i think it's nessecary. If i'm leading an operation and say for example a boss berserks naturally i want to look at the damage done and see who's slacking from that point i can offer advise to the player slacking and hopefully see improvements or if a tank dies i can find a healer doing way less than he/she should in there current gear.

 

I also like it to evaluate my own preformances and see if there's anything i can do to improve so yes i fully support a recount being added to the game.

[MajikMyst]

Recount has a huge potential to be abused as it was in WoW however i think it's nessecary. If i'm leading an operation and say for example a boss berserks naturally i want to look at the damage done and see who's slacking from that point i can offer advise to the player slacking and hopefully see improvements or if a tank dies i can find a healer doing way less than he/she should in there current gear.

 

I also like it to evaluate my own preformances and see if there's anything i can do to improve so yes i fully support a recount being added to the game.

 

You give great reasons for having recount.. I am curious as to how you can abuse it?? Gear Score was abused in WOW.. I don't think it is possible to abuse recount..

[TheSkate]

You give great reasons for having recount.. I am curious as to how you can abuse it?? Gear Score was abused in WOW.. I don't think it is possible to abuse recount..

 

So you have never heard of e-peen? The mine's bigger than yours syndrome?

How about people being abused because their build does not give the top DPS?

Perhaps you've also never seen a player abused because despite having the top build their DPS is 10% lower than "expected".

How about the fact that many players focus on beating the DPS meter instead of playing the mechanics of a fight? After all, the healer should be able to heal through it if he/she is optimized properly.

 

A personal DPS meter would let people improve themselves without any of these issues coming up.

 

Recount just makes *** holes into bigger *** holes, enabling them to ruin the game for others. Not everyone is thick skinned and the abuse can make people quit MUCH faster than these people threatening to quit if recount isn't implemented. Another argument against recount is that the recount crowd will quit soon anyway, because the game isn't hard enough even without it.

[Stooge]

Yes, I support a feature that gives tangible feedback.

 

As a DPS, I always used Recount to help me with timing and rotations. It is an invaluable tool.

 

Now, I know that there are those out there that have the "my numbers are bigger than yours" syndrome, but those people are jerks to start with and not having a tool that feeds back info doesn't change that.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Stooge

[Appletaz]

I think I've already posted in this thread, but I'm not sure

 

I really miss having a damage meter. Like someone else said, if you miss the fly text, you actually miss the damage you did and how are you supposed to add all those numbers up as they fly by?

 

The tool tip says that a skill does so much damage, but when you add points to crit chance and other things, it always does different amounts. Sometimes, all of a sudden I'm dead, and I'd like to know what the hell happened while I blinked! Or if my skill crits, I'd like to see how much damage it does. That just helps the player. I don't have any problem with a player analyzing their own performance.

 

I do understand that raid leaders/guild leaders would like to run their guilds like businesses and have tools to evaluate their members' performances so that they can get the results they want in raids. They want to analyze, rework, and refine their groups so that they win more. Personally, I steer away from guilds like that. That kind of analysis makes the game not fun for me. I find it sort of invasive for other players to analyze my performance.

 

I think that releasing SWTOR without damage logs and other UI functions was probably a choice made by BW while they paid attention to other phases of the game they thought were more important and that the playerbase would just work with the UI until they got around to putting some real thought and design into it. It's time for that now.

[Navakai]

How about people being abused because their build does not give the top DPS?

 

Bioware have already stated they want to balance all specs to be much the same. if someone is dps'ing in a genuinely atrocious spec.... maybe being told wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen. Flashpoints and Operations are not a one person affair. YOU might want to have fun, others want to down the boss and move on.

 

Perhaps you've also never seen a player abused because despite having the top build their DPS is 10% lower than "expected".

 

I can't imagine anyone complaining about a 10% differential. That said, if someone is underperforming, why hide it? So they can save face? A raid is a collective of people. Read above point again.

 

How about the fact that many players focus on beating the DPS meter instead of playing the mechanics of a fight?

 

I've seen this argument come up several times now and everytime I read it, I cringe. We could apply the same logic to SUPPORT mods and addons in general, not just recount. Why do so many specs have 'proc' based abilities, yet we have no addon support to clearly 'track' our procs?

 

Apparently we are suppose to stare above our health pane, to know when a free attack, or procced buff has occurred. Recount is invaluable. You can see how someone died, what damage did it to them (did they stand in fire, did they go 15 seconds without a heal).

 

 

 

A personal DPS meter would let people improve themselves without any of these issues coming up.

 

A personal dps meter would be a start, however it's not enough. Clearly most people in here have never lead a raid, or tried to co-ordinate a server first kill >.>

 

Not everyone is thick skinned and the abuse can make people quit MUCH faster than these people threatening to quit if recount isn't implemented.

 

I completely disagree. Everyone keeps harping on this impending 'abuse' that will likely be an isolated and infrequent thing. A troll is going to troll regardless, they don't need a dps meter to think you're a bad player. They can merely watch you backpeddle, or struggle with your rotation. Trust me, I've seen it alot.

 

Another argument against recount is that the recount crowd will quit soon anyway, because the game isn't hard enough even without it.

 

 

The *recount* crowd, is most of your raiders / end game players. It's the super casuals that don't raid, or do high end pvp, that typically quit the game because they have nothing left to do after leveling their 5th alt.

[Akkalevil]

The main problem with this can be seen by logging into WoW. The whole "improvement" ideal snowballed into something ugly and when you go to the LFG tool for random instances and raids there is always some dood in charge who boots folks because they don't have all the bells and whistles; or are a meer 10-15% less dps then the other people of said class. Great idea, but in the hands of the masses it just forces you to conform.

Your point has some merit, but again, let me quote myself about it :

 

But my opinion is that the attitude problems tied to Recount didn't appear in WoW until the difficulty level was so much lowered that people could focus their entire attention on doing a big score and still manage to faceroll content - if you just tried to top the meter without actually playing well before WotLK, you died like a tool and you actually ended in the bottom, or at least the ones who had to compensate for your errors knew you were just playing the numbers and not actually doing what you should.

 

Are you unable to see the damage numbers that float up around your enemy everytime you do damage?

 

Spurious argument is spurious.

You're the perfect example of how people saying they don't need Recount to know their performance, are usually the bad players not understanding how things work.

I can't imagine anyone complaining about a 10% differential.

Well, actually, 10 % is pretty HUGE if you're going to be competitive. People often underestimate the impact of numbers.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Akkalevil

[Navakai]

It's all relative. The numbers are smaller in SWTOR than the inflated expansion filled numbers of say wow (30k dps anyone)

 

SO say we are dealing with 1.5 - 2k dps in SWTOR.

 

First place does 2000 dps, second place does 1800.

 

That's your 10 percent. Like I said.. I doubt anyone's going to throw you out for a 10 percent differential.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Navakai

[flyersfan]

No, I don't like this. It's creates a standard that everyone is expected to live up to and I won't stand for it. It causes people to look down on others and exclude others because of the numbers that they have on their meters. I find it ridiculous and highly unnecessary. I will be disappointed if BioWare adds these in.

[crica]

if the mob dies and the group doesn't = we doing enough dmg/heal/tank

 

if the group dies and the mob doesn't = we need to do more dmg/heal/tank

 

don't need a recount to tell me what I already know

[Todei]

Erased Edited February 7, 2012 by Todei

[Esroen_Ivvika]

really? 64 pages of whining about a meter?

 

who cares if people know ur crap...or awesome?

 

 

"but ooo my e-feelings will get hurt if people know i'm a sack of crap"

 

get good, ****

 

if ur pride is more important than finding out if/why you suck and making an effort to get better is then you probably shouldn't be running the kind of content where these meter systems will be used anyways. If turning up low numbers gets you kicked from a raid group then sucking is only half your problem, the ***holes you're associating that are probably the same turds that don't offer to help you out with are the other half

[Navakai]

No, I don't like this. It's creates a standard that everyone is expected to live up to and I won't stand for it.

 

 

What on earth do you think raiding as a group or a guild is? You set a standard and expect people to meet it. That's why raiding guilds have trial periods ect.

[FrankSpencer]

Pro: You can fine tune your rotation

Con: Juvenile, elitist "We R kick cos you no DPS over 9000"

 

 

Simple solution - no DPS meter as such, but provide target dummies (or better still a training facility on the fleet) where you can talk to an NPC, choose level and difficulty rating and maybe even type of enemy like Headbutter, or the others that are used to specify enemy types and then engage in a fight. After the fight you get a full breakdown of the fight with graphs and other shizzle to show how you did through the fight. That way you could min-max as much as you like but there would be no DPS meter e-peen waving during flashpoints or operations.

 

Just a thought.

[Navakai]

if the mob dies and the group doesn't = we doing enough dmg/heal/tank

 

if the group dies and the mob doesn't = we need to do more dmg/heal/tank

 

don't need a recount to tell me what I already know

 

 

This post is just plain silly. So tell me, if you wipe on a boss.....What was the problem?

 

 

 

Did some of your dps fail a void zone mechanic, and not move when they should have?

 

Did one of the dps pull threat off the tank and won't admit it?

 

Are several of your dps under-performing, and did you hit enrage? If so, who? and how do you correct the issue?

 

Are your tanks having trouble timing their tank swaps?

 

Are the tanks under-performing in terms of threat/dps themselves?

 

Was your group slow on interrupts, if so, who is slacking in this department and what changes can you make to avoid it again?

 

What source of damage did they take? Was it a void zone as mentioned? or was it lack of dispels that lead to them dieing, in which case you need to address your healers / dispellers.

 

Are your healers healing the correct people? Perhaps your raid healer isn't pulling their weight, but the tank healers are doing fine? How would you know? And who would you swap around?

 

Was CC broken on the adds? if so, what spell is breaking the CC? and more importantly who?

 

Are the adds not dieing fast enough? Who isn't switching to adds when asked, and who is, and how do you plan to sort this out ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Short of spending hours on vent, and expecting people to be completely honest and aware of their shortcomings, you would have no hope in hell of sorting this out.

 

 

 

A 'recount' like tool could tell you ALL of these things in under 2 minutes. Far more conducive than your BS smart-Alec comment.

[Todei]

What if they make an addon that instead of giving your numbers, it tell raid leader, "X player isn't managing his threat well" or "X player is overhealing X player" or "Interupt failed" etc. I think that would be useful for raids without all the animosity that comes with numbers. Thinking about it further, numbers would also create the best spec for each class unless they were all balanced. Now every tank that isn't a Guardian is *****, every raid healer that isn't a Sage is *****, every Gunslinger that isn't this spec is *****, etc. Maybe make a ui icon that allows you to share your combat log with those who request it.

 

Some people think that those who don't want the numbers is just because they suck. That's certainly not the case. It's really about not having to deal with people who only care about whose name is on top of that list.

[AsheraII]

With Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group your DPS sucks.

 

 

Without Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group you are wearing a green helm and your gear isn't good enough for this encounter. (You get kicked, even if you were top DPS)

With recount: exactly, since, guess what? People stare themselves blindly at their DPS meters, and don't care that YOU were the one who handled the critical interrupts on the bosses' abilities, while the rest was too busy staring at their critlines. The information is there in recount, but admit it: NOBODY looks at it.

 

Without recount: This would've happened even before the flashpoint started, so there's no way you would know about that performance anyway. I guess you never played during WoW Vanilla, since quite a few people started their raiding carreer there in GREENS. Simply because fire-resistance didn't always come in blue, some things just wouldn't drop, effectively making greens the BiS for a starting raider. The trashmobs, which would be barely managable for a full pack of raiders in mostly greens would then drop just enough of a DPS upgrade to gear up for the first boss, and so on, and so on.

If you're serious about *hardcore* raiding, you don't expect to clear the whole raid in the first week. You actually don't even expect to take out the first boss in the first week.

 

But in case you really want to know, green gear is enough to clear the first raid in TOR in normal mode. It isn't that hardcore that you need any better.

[flyersfan]

What on earth do you think raiding as a group or a guild is? You set a standard and expect people to meet it. That's why raiding guilds have trial periods ect.

 

My guild doesn't. That's also why I'm not in a raiding guild.

 

I've got better things to do than to listen to people rattle off numbers and force me to change my class or specialisation because of what they think is best. These meters and such are only a means for that type of behaviour to exist.

[ULTIMAadvanced]

First and foremost... This whole damn world and everything we have in it is a result of the pursuit of perfection. People need to know who the weak links are in ANY sort of situation. To deny the people of any sort of practical means of keeping track of each others skill/lack is not only just bad buisness, it's down-right unconstitutional in my eyes. That doesn't mean that this person needs to be kicked immediately from the group/raid, but it allows you to make key adjustments to counter the problem. Encourage him/her to study up a bit about their class(assuming they are guildy's) and have someone help them out with it if at all possible.

 

The combat log or some sort of recount absolutely HAS to be implemented eventually and I would stress sooner than later. I really enjoy playing this game for what it is currently, but the ONLY reason I am still playing, is because of the strong possibility of a parse system.(would really love to have 3 rows of horizontal action bars on bottom center also)

 

And last but definetly not least.... If you don't want to be part of the whole "scared what people might think about my dps and be mean to me" topic, then clearly you have no place being in any sort of ops mode(pvp as well). You'll only be carried for so long anyhow before the group knows you aren't playing to your full potential and they stop inviting you.

 

This game will benifit WAY more from a parse than suffer from it. Do I actually have to point out that the most popular and successful game in the world allows damage meters, and is a huge part of it's success as well? I hate to say it, but they should be modeled after in many aspects. They found the formula and it absolutely works, but this game has the capability to be just as great or greater.

 

There's my 2 cents. Later