Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[ShardTosk]

Can't help but notice you didn't respond to my 3rd point.

 

And someone who doesn't know if he's efficient suddendly become (somehow) much more aware and magically better at reacting with what happens in the fight !

His/her point and my second one (with the internet comment) was if you notice you're not doing too hot you go compare what you're doing to other people. Comparing yourself to successful players rather then an idealized version of your class as played by a sim program, how revolutionary.

 

Just for poodoo and giggles I'll post the pic I made for another thread.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/Shaitan051/Deepusflowchart.png

Edited February 1, 2012 by ShardTosk

[One-Up]

Me, my friends, and my family play MMOs pretty much exclusively. We've done plenty of the content in almost every game that we dont even need meters. But the thing is, they help.

 

People are lazy, and not having meters allows them to be even lazier. As i previously stated ive done plenty of content in multiple mmos. so basically i KNOW how fast a boss should be downed, or how fast a instance, flashpoint or dungeon should take. If its not exceeding my expectations, the dps in my group are getting kicked, no question about it.

 

People are lazy & or Suck, bottom line, and meters help show who they are. Yeah im an ***, but so what, dont expect to get carried by me. people need to learn to play, not be catered by archaic designs. Teach people to play better with better tooltips, not hold their hands and allow them to do whatever as they please.

 

DPS meters are a must have and anyone against them are scared that the elite crowd will shun them, which in all honesty if they are that scared, they need to step their game up anyways because they should have no reason to fear DPS meters.

 

Almost in all cases a better played character is better than a better geared character. People need to learn to play, thats all it boils down to. NO reason anybody should have to hold anybodies hand anymore.

 

Drunk and bored, if anything was said previously sry, didnt bother reading, end rant...

[PiperPilot]

No it's not fine. Well not unless you don't actually care in the slightest about whether or not you're performing as well as you could be or if you're holding your group back.

 

So you want a reason to bash and harass your fellow party members, is what the subtext there is saying. I understand. You want to ruin the game's fun of sociability for your own sadistic, selfish pleasures. I get it.

[Kenmuir]

So you want a reason to bash and harass your fellow party members, is what the subtext there is saying. I understand. You want to ruin the game's fun of sociability for your own sadistic, selfish pleasures. I get it.

 

Oh god, the hypocrisy of this post. It's really too much.

 

"You want to ruin the game's fun of sociability for your own sadistic, selfish pleasures."

 

Comedy gold right here.

 

"PiperPilot wants to ruin the game's fun of challenge and self-scrutinization(in the eyes of people who like recount) for his own sadistic, selfish pleasures of 'community'."

 

 

But really, no one can force you to use recount, your fears of the slippery slope of difficult game design(an interesting complaint I read, If you have no problem doing "top" dps without Recount how does this impact you? Interesting hypocrisy.) are unfounded, and there's the interesting revelation that you think if someone has a tool they can "abuse" they will(most likely from self projection).

[Akkalevil]

Can't help but notice you didn't respond to my 3rd point.

No, because I already said several times that it's the only viable point from the anti-Recount side.

Doesn't make the rest of your post more valuable, you know ?

His/her point and my second one (with the internet comment) was if you notice you're not doing too hot you go compare what you're doing to other people. Comparing yourself to successful players rather then an idealized version of your class as played by a sim program, how revolutionary.

Still completely pointless that miss the entire argument.

Your smarta** picture just prove it even further.

 

At this level of cluelessness and ignoring the points made, I suppose you're actively trying to not understand, so I guess it's useless to try to explain it to you.

[Krazeh]

So you want a reason to bash and harass your fellow party members, is what the subtext there is saying. I understand. You want to ruin the game's fun of sociability for your own sadistic, selfish pleasures. I get it.

 

The only subtext is one you've added yourself so you can try arguing against it. My comment was all about the use of recount to compare yourself to the rest of the raid group to ensure that YOU are performing as well as you could be and/or are pulling your own weight. It wasn't anything to do with using recount to bash or harass anyone, either explicitly or in the subtext.

[Evilspock]

No I don't support an in game version. The reason is that I believe the player base can come up with a better and more useful tool than the developers can.

[Arugess]

Nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[DesonEQ]

 

Recount is not just a "damage meter"... it is a graphical interface which allows you to view group activity in the combat log i.e. Damage Done over the duration of the fight by each player, Friendly Fire, Damage Taken, Healing Done, Absorbs, Healing Taken, Overhealing Done, Deaths, DOT Uptime, HOT Uptime, Player Combat Activity, Dispels, The Dispelled, Interrupts, Ressers, CC Breakers, Resources Gained, etc.

 

I believe these tools play an important role in identifying whether a player is doing well or under-performing. Nevertheless, these graphs should be the starting point – an indicator that you should be looking more closely at the situation. Used wisely, a tool like this could greatly improve guild performance.

I'm less concerned with performance display than just usable logs. Something basic that conveys the information in an actual usable form is a necessity. There's no reason we should continue to get the next to useless text logs for anything.Basic damage parsers/loot pasers/xp parsers should be the norm for any game coming up if only to spare you the pain in it of searching current text logs.

[Gyrovague]

No I don't support an in game version. The reason is that I believe the player base can come up with a better and more useful tool than the developers can.

 

This. Just give us a combat log and the ability to write mods.

 

It's bizarre that most of the argument about meters has to do with their use in pugs. How on earth did pug social dynamics become more important than guild dynamics?

 

Those of you content to play blind without any idea how to improve your performance can join guilds where that is the attitude and nobody uses meters. Those of us who want to use them among our own group of friends, both to analyze/improve our own performance and to compete with each other can also do so in our own guilds. And other than you buying gear from us off the AH, we won't have to even be aware of each other's existence.

 

Raiding without meters is like running track without stopwatches. If that's your attitude, fine. Go do Race for the Cure. But stop trying to abolish track meets.

[Sabarok]

Raiding without meters is like running track without stopwatches. If that's your attitude, fine. Go do Race for the Cure. But stop trying to abolish track meets.

 

You're accusing those that don't want to see full team DPS meters given to every single player to be trying to ban raids? Melodramatic much?

[Lord_Indomitus]

Well made meters are a good tool for a lot of gamers. At the same time, they are annoying in the hands of the many imbeciles that breath our oxygen and not only that, they ALSO play MMOs and annoy us.

 

I used to be in favor of meters, but nowadays... I think that you should even remove them from PvP. Apparently some believe topping dmg meters in PvP is skill... LOL

 

Then they start losing 1v1s, lose group based PvP, lose in general... then "OMG NERF X CLASS".

 

Yeah it's RNG, the X,Y,Z class, OFC it's not you who sucks. BECAUSE YOU TOP METERS IN PVP, YOU HAVE TO BE SKILLED.

 

I mean, I even cast in their face, SO FEW INTERRUPT... this actually might become a bad habbit...

 

Cannot.... interrupt..... must..... get.... PvE.... rotation..... right... Bzzz....

 

And these are the people who give feedback about improving PvP in swtor, WHAT a JOKE.-

Edited February 2, 2012 by Lord_Indomitus

[Dunklezhan]

Go to elitist jerks and you can find about every reason not to include a meter into the game. I used to like having all the do dads but then i saw wow move from a game to having to conform to some douche tools idea of a master build and BiS gear ratings to even be considered for a raid.

 

I like think tanks but to min/max every aspect of a game takes so much away from the game and I am what most folks would have considered a power gamer. I liked being elite but then again when my guild server first MC and Ony there were no meters or deadly boss mods or hold your hand mods. Game was much better that way. A bunch of half drunken idiots wiping over and over and over for hours/days on end dressed in green and blue gear, and figuring out each new twist by ourselves not following some doods utube video...that was true gaming.

 

I hate to say it but meters are a gateway to exactly the thing games don't need.

[MrOrionQuest]

We're getting a combat log, and the ability to customize our UI. Addons aren't really needed at that point.

 

Whether some of you want to believe it or not, if an addon like Recount or Skada (which I found to be better) gets implemented, the option to use one is no longer an option. You'll be either forced to use it, or no longer run Operations with that guild/group. Saying they should find another guild should not be among this player's few remaining options. Especially if we already have a combat log.

 

You don't need to see what the "other guy" is doing, using the excuse that a player is holding you back, slacking, not performing to your standards, etc, is a poor excuse rather than just telling the person they need to improve, you've already come to your conclusion before needing a set of numbers, which can be due to a large variety of issues. No instance is going to favor a specific spec in all encounters, and this goes for all the roles in the trinity. Recount is not going to give you detailed information about how the fight actually went down for that player, and should never be used as a means to tell how they perform on any consistent basis. Numbers may not lie, but numbers don't tell you the whole story.

[Lord_Indomitus]

Go to elitist jerks and you can find about every reason not to include a meter into the game. I used to like having all the do dads but then i saw wow move from a game to having to conform to some douche tools idea of a master build and BiS gear ratings to even be considered for a raid.

 

I like think tanks but to min/max every aspect of a game takes so much away from the game and I am what most folks would have considered a power gamer. I liked being elite but then again when my guild server first MC and Ony there were no meters or deadly boss mods or hold your hand mods. Game was much better that way. A bunch of half drunken idiots wiping over and over and over for hours/days on end dressed in green and blue gear, and figuring out each new twist by ourselves not following some doods utube video...that was true gaming.

 

I hate to say it but meters are a gateway to exactly the thing games don't need.

 

I partially agree with you and partially disagree. I think that BOTH kinds of gamers CAN and SHOULD be allowed to play the same game and have FUN. Those who want to min/max should be able to, those who don't should be able to do so WITHOUT having to put up with crap from bad players who top a damage meter only because that includes playing bad. It's hard, but it CAN be done.

 

Yes, in some occasions topping the damage meter requires you to actually play bad and hurt your team's effort. I don't want to keep explaining to bad players why...

 

min/maxing, I have done A LOT during the past, I am still doing it, but not pursuing it as hard, but at a pace I am comfortable with.

 

Still, I prefer the lesser evil (no damage meters) until a good "golden rule/solution" is implemented and I pray for people to regain their common sense and make gaming FUN for ALL of US.

 

Topping damage meters has nothing to do with skill, min/maxing has nothing to do with skill. Ofc that doesn't mean these things are "evil" or the cause of "evil"... still they don;t equal skill. People should understand that, move on and focus on suggesting things to make the game fun for all of us.

 

Damage meters won;t make the game fun for you, they will just give to some the illusion that they are GREATLY skilled, when they are in fact average skilled or even bad.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Lord_Indomitus

[Sabarok]

I partially agree with you and partially disagree. I think that BOTH kinds of gamers CAN and SHOULD be allowed to play the same game and have FUN. Those who want to min/max should be able to, those who don't should be able to do so WITHOUT having to put up with crap from bad players who top a damage meter only because that includes playing bad. It's hard, but it CAN be done.

 

I agree with you, which is why my position is adding a combat log channel with DPS meters being allowed through 3rd party apps/mods. Combat log is useful for everyone, and being a channel, is easily turned off for players who don't want to see it. For the min/maxers and the hardcore raiders, allowing the 3rd party apps/mods gives them an avenue to have access to the tools they want for themselves. It also puts the development and maintenance of the tool in the hands of the actual players, who know better than Bioware what they want this to do.

 

If a DPS meter does get added to the game, I feel it must be self-only (which I believe is currently Bioware's intent) and that it not come with a button to publish the stats to the chat window (If players really want to talk about it, they should type it out themselves). I believe raiders would enjoy a way to auto-publish their stats to the team leader. I oppose giving this ability to the masses in random teams, but if this could be limited to operation groups I would find it acceptable.

 

All the negative aspects I have seen with DPS meters has been in team comparison publications. I played AO which where the DPS meters are 3rd party apps, and I played LOTRO which doesn't have any DPS meters, but it does have combat logs. In AO, I never saw a player get kicked or booted for not doing enough on the DPS meter, but I did see that as soon as 1 player posted DPS stats to the team window, the entire team dynamic changed as players became reckless to try and top the stats. Since the apps were 3rd party in AO and required players to go above & beyond to get it, the players that did also realized the harm it was doing, and the mod became less popular & less used for the teams. The "noobs" who couldn't comprehend the problems it caused also rarely had access to the tools themselves, so there was little damage to the game.

 

Personally, I feel either LOTRO's or AO's solutions to be equally acceptable. I've never played a MMO with a DPS meter built in, but in AO, my DPS meter phase didn't last long until I stopped bothering to use it. It wasn't adding anything to the fun for me, but I do think that the best possible tools will come from the 3rd parties.

[Buur]

Go to elitist jerks and you can find about every reason not to include a meter into the game. I used to like having all the do dads but then i saw wow move from a game to having to conform to some douche tools idea of a master build and BiS gear ratings to even be considered for a raid.

 

I like think tanks but to min/max every aspect of a game takes so much away from the game and I am what most folks would have considered a power gamer. I liked being elite but then again when my guild server first MC and Ony there were no meters or deadly boss mods or hold your hand mods. Game was much better that way. A bunch of half drunken idiots wiping over and over and over for hours/days on end dressed in green and blue gear, and figuring out each new twist by ourselves not following some doods utube video...that was true gaming.

 

I hate to say it but meters are a gateway to exactly the thing games don't need.

 

That site is a useful tool for people interested in maxing their performance. As is recount. You can still do fun raids with friends or pugs without them. If someone is demanding you use a certain spec or do certain dps, find other people to run with.

[terminova]

No, recount is unnecessary. Many times it simply leads to a DPS race which gets the group wiped and the healer trying to keep multiple people up.

 

IT'S NOT FUN.

[ShardTosk]

At this level of cluelessness and ignoring the points made, I suppose you're actively trying to not understand, so I guess it's useless to try to explain it to you.

Really sticking to that "I'm not ignoring you you're ignoring ME" tactic aren't you? Claiming all the posts opposing you are ignoring you or spouting gibberish is over simplifying it just a tad though.

 

There is one MASSIVE hole in the standard "I just want to improve myself" recount argument... ...none of you guys want one that only tracks your own stats.

You're throwing a sheet over the elitist banthas*** and hoping we don't notice.

[DaxRendar]

That site is a useful tool for people interested in maxing their performance. As is recount. You can still do fun raids with friends or pugs without them. If someone is demanding you use a certain spec or do certain dps, find other people to run with.

 

Discussion threads, tooltip ability analysis, and spreadsheet modeling combined with in-game trials are useful tools for people interested in maximizing their performance.

 

You can still participate in challenging content with skilled players without Recount/Meters.

 

If you are demanding that Meters are needed for you to have fun, find another game to play.

(Oh.... look what I did there )

Edited February 3, 2012 by DaxRendar

[va_wanderer]

I'm on the "Don't let it near the game" end of things.

 

It's a tool that's abused far more than it's used- I even wince about personal logs, but those at least are, well- personal. Damage/Healing log whinefests have been social poison elsewhere, and minmaxing from such things is the mathematical "proof" that generally shoves cookie-cutter builds down people's throats. Having seen what that sort of thing did in WoW, I'm not eager to see it repeated here.

 

I watch people amiably discuss Assault vs. Tactics vs. Shield on the Vanguard board right now. Add logging and watch that degenerate to WoW flamewars and build tyranny.

[Akkalevil]

Really sticking to that "I'm not ignoring you you're ignoring ME" tactic aren't you? Claiming all the posts opposing you are ignoring you or spouting gibberish is over simplifying it just a tad though.

Just like your wannabe-witty retorts are oversimplifying the usefulness of Recount, and you still ignore the points made just to be able to mock people who support Recount. It's not like people purposedly ignoring points that they don't like is anything new or rare, so yeah I claim it's the case and it's not because three guys do it that it means it's wrong.

There is one MASSIVE hole in the standard "I just want to improve myself" recount argument... ...none of you guys want one that only tracks your own stats.

You're throwing a sheet over the elitist banthas*** and hoping we don't notice.

There is no hole in the logic that to improve yourself, you need to be able to measure your performance.

There is, however, a very obvious willfull bias from your part about painting pro-Recount in bad light, which "coincidentally" happens to go with your oversimplification of the arguments made.

[Nexusissei]

There is one MASSIVE hole in the standard "I just want to improve myself" recount argument... ...none of you guys want one that only tracks your own stats.

You're throwing a sheet over the elitist banthas*** and hoping we don't notice.

 

Groups take down end-game content, not a single individual. This is why it's important to see your group's statistics and not just your own.

[Nexusissei]

I'm on the "Don't let it near the game" end of things.

 

It's a tool that's abused far more than it's used- I even wince about personal logs, but those at least are, well- personal. Damage/Healing log whinefests have been social poison elsewhere, and minmaxing from such things is the mathematical "proof" that generally shoves cookie-cutter builds down people's throats. Having seen what that sort of thing did in WoW, I'm not eager to see it repeated here.

 

I watch people amiably discuss Assault vs. Tactics vs. Shield on the Vanguard board right now. Add logging and watch that degenerate to WoW flamewars and build tyranny.

 

It's the nature of talent trees to have a certain set of skills you need to allow your character to perform well in a group provided that those talent choices mean something. There are "fringe" talents that can be taken over others, but at that point, the choice is really negligible and that's why there's a choice.

 

So if you want to build how you want regardless of what a group needs, what you really want is talent tree choices that don't really matter and that subject deserves its own thread. But it doesn't have anything to do with meters in the game.

 

And on another point, I see quite a few amiable discussions on the WoW class forums regarding build choices and theorycrafting for tree selection and fringe talent choices. Are there people there that are very childish about it? Yes. But they would be childish about it whether there were meters or not. So, again, what you argue has nothing to do with meters.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Nexusissei

[Nexusissei]

A trend I'm noticing is a thought process spawned from the informal logical fallacy of *** hoc ergo propter hoc. It is the false assumption that the correlation of two things means that one causes the other.

 

For instance, some are saying, "WoW has Recount. WoW has a significantly large immature audience. Therefore, Recount causes the immature audience. Recount in SWTOR will cause the same thing to happen since recount causes immaturity in WoW."

 

But this kind of statement is non sequitur in that WoW having recount has absolutely nothing to do with causing people to be immature.

 

So ask yourself this honest question before posting: Is it possible this negative could exist independent of recount?

Edited February 4, 2012 by Nexusissei