Nexusissei Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) But those that are demanding meters... they don't feel a sense of entitlement? They feel they are entitled as well. To me their sense of entitlement is misplaced. To them mine is. I say they are trying to ruin the game for me and those that want to enjoy the game as a game. They say I want to ruin the game for them by not letting them maximize their DPS. We are both right. I like the idea put forth earlier about making separate "metered" servers where those are the only servers that meters work. That way I can play my game and they can play their numbers. Only problem with that is BioWare/EA would have to maintain two separate clients. There is no perfect solution as either way they go they will piss off many people. Those requesting meters are backing up their claims with logical arguments as to what they feel meters are good for, from determining weak points in groups to learning which rotations are best for healing/DPS/tanking. The detractors are making anecdotal, logically fallacious or just completely illogical arguments about how DPS meters leads to elitism, jerkwads and a general ruining of the game. Edited January 21, 2012 by Nexusissei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manchuwook Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) The detractors are making anecdotal, logically fallacious or just completely illogical arguments about how DPS meters leads to elitism, jerkwads and a general ruining of the game. It's pretty simple: Don't raid. It is the 100% most effective way of avoiding people that need to know your dps. If people think they can maximise dps without having any hard evidence to prove to anyone outside of their own interface... well, good luck with that. Otherwise, I suppose you could work around it by fraps'ing your fights and tally it up with a calculator - cause, that's effective. Edited January 21, 2012 by Manchuwook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiennen Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I Support it. Reason: The players need a tool that they can use to help get a better view on their performance in Ops/Flashpoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexusissei Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Oh man, I had a hearty laugh there! Well played, sir! Voting yes for recount. Some of the people afraid of it that say a combat log is enough might want to hold off until we see the actual combat log. Chances are it won't give overall statistics, or periodic results. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but just having the combat log with no other addons in WoW didn't tell you much of anything. Of course, it was nice to know how crazy some crits were or what killed you seemingly out of nowhere... but was it good for anything other than that without any addons? Is the SWTOR personal combat log going to be anything other than this: Your Rupture hits Droid for 145. You gain 2 fury. Droid's Mega-blast Shot hits you for 14000. You die. I guess only time will tell. It's part of a set of tools that work in harmony to provide that executive report for players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 In this scenario, Hunter B would **actually** wind up higher on the chart than Hunter A, but Hunter A would end up getting booted because they did the least amount of DPS of the 3 DPSers (captain aren't counted for DPS, but act like a force multiplier to the group, thus it's good to have one around), when B pulled agro and effectively caused the wipe you know who is CCing and who is pulling agro in a 6 man. unless you don't have eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkate Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) It's pretty simple: Don't raid. It is the 100% most effective way of avoiding people that need to know your dps. If people think they can maximise dps without having any hard evidence to prove to anyone outside of their own interface... well, good luck with that. Otherwise, I suppose you could work around it by fraps'ing your fights and tally it up with a calculator - cause, that's effective. It's pretty simple, don't raid. That is the 100% most effective way of avoiding people that don't give a damn about your dps. If players don't need to maximize their dps, and hard evidence suggests that they do not need to in this game, well good luck convincing us you do. You could fraps your fights and figure out your dps if you really must know how you are doing - cause most people really don't care. Edited January 21, 2012 by TheSkate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabarok Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 In 15 years of MMOs, there was a brief period of Anarchy Online where I played around with Damage Dumpers which tracked damage stats and DPS. The negative effect the information had on the team as players started doing everything they to maximize DPS at the expense of good teamwork changed the shift to make them less popular. There was one encounter where a damage tracker was virtually required in Anarchy Online. It has a faction alignment system, but at the time, the only way to get towards the maximum faction was to kill a unique boss with a respawn time measured in hours. In order to get the faction points for it, your team must inflict at least 20% of the damage. With 4 teams participating, a damage tracker made it possible to know in real-time if one particular team was doing too much DPS. I've had no trouble raiding without it. I raid with people where the main goal is to have fun. I'm not a min/max'er. What I would like to see is a combat log output channel so I can read through the damage and see what killed me. It helps to problem solve boss encounters. What I find acceptable (and what Anarchy Online did) would be to allow the combat log to be saved out to a text file, and a 3rd party program/mod can be used to give those that really want it their detailed DPS stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Descento Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 DPS meter / Threat Meter / COmbat Logs are needed very badly. Make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almagnus Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) This is because pugs suck at taking out content. People are going to screw up royally and die. The higher DPS requirement helps lessen the effects of those mistakes. My time in LotRO has shown just the opposite. Most PUGs that I've been in there usually clear content. This is one of those things where your mileage will vary. Edit: I also play a captain, so I can usually compensate for part of the group not doing what it needs to fairly well, and that helps a lot with PUGs. Edited January 21, 2012 by Almagnus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almagnus Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Recount saves people from wiping for 4 hours, it reduces the learning time. It gives raid leaders and option to switch from constant /headdesk'ing against progression and justify moving on to non-progression bosses. Otherwise, those elitist snobs (the con- folks have been complaining about) have plenty of unsubstantiated reasons for kicking them. Regular folks have no recourse but to accept it and try another PuG before /1 gen gets spammed with "xxPlayerxx is terribad at raids, never invite them" - and can't relate their dps/hps/tps in their defense. And let me guess, Recount is also change you can believe in too.... This is why guilds worth anything have class mentors, cause they can help peeps get better. And if you're asking for recount so that the PUGs don't suck, simple solution there: DON'T PUG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epyoch Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Not true at all. actually he stated it in a blog post....even put the word Your in bold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epyoch Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) I am for a personal damage meter or personal combat log to parse....I don't like to see in groups recount spam because someone got 20 dps more than you and think they are so elite. A damage parser to find out what killed me would be awesome, I don't care what the other guy is doing as far as dps, even in hard/nightmare modes, because if they are doing hard/nightmare modes (assuming you don't pug) they are doing their best, especially if they have a personal recount and are a min/maxer. But a personal optimization would be handy. And the arguments for a recount that you can see what everyone is doing is based on an idea that it will make "you" do better....if you are in a guild doing guild runs, assuming you know all of these people, a personal recount would do just the same, when the raid leader asks....how did you die...with a personal combat log...you can see how you died..simple matter. Also, I just have my interrupters call out their interrupts in vent, in a set order, in fact most of them have their mumble press to talk as their interrupt for raid time just to make it quicker. So you really don't need that part. a threat meter would be nice in some way, but it's not mandatory in my mind...if I have aggro, I can see that I have aggro and the tanks can see that I have aggro because the mob/boss is facing/running towards me. I get that if I ask what a particular dps is doing they might lie to me, but that is okay, because even if I think they aren't doing very well or doing something wrong, I am watching them a lot more closely. But I trust my fellow raid members to the most extent that they are trying. If they aren't, well that will show up in other ways, dieing first/constantly, not dps'ing the right mob/adds/mind traps. All will be revealed if you pay attention. But then again I fraps my boss fights, just to be able to go back over them to maybe see something I missed...ithat is, if we don't down him that night. Edited January 21, 2012 by Epyoch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 But I trust my fellow raid members to the most extent that they are trying. If they aren't, well that will show up in other ways, dieing first/constantly, not dps'ing the right mob/adds/mind traps. All will be revealed if you pay attention. But then again I fraps my boss fights, just to be able to go back over them to maybe see something I missed...ithat is, if we don't down him that night. do you fraps all your PuG raids and 5 man instances too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tXHereticXt Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I neither support or disaprove the use of the tool. Used it in EQ and I don't think anything will change if it's in this game. The Raids are singular, endgame is limited, and the gear is in small quantities where as in EQ or WoW you had plenty of endgame areas that dropped plenty of loot. In those games because of the variety and importance of pieces - this game is very limited in retrospect. Rather support common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tythus Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) is not needed ok ty sorry i forgot to add why is cuz i dont need 1 guy tellin me he will all of a suden take the other dude cuz he has a slightly better piece of gear, this is why i hate WOW WOW WOW Edited January 22, 2012 by Tythus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiddles Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Have to say recount is the ONLY thing I miss about WoW. Personal meters would be a good start, but down the track I'd like to see raid "scoreboards" (similar to the Warzone ones) displayed at the end of a Flashpoint/Operation. A little friendly competition never hurt anyone. Alternatively, BioWare could bring out a Recount-like system where players are given the choice as to whether their healing/damage done/damage taken infomation is displayed or not at the beggining of the flashpoint/operation. Obviously this opens a whole new window for people to discriminate against others "Oh u dnt want ur info displaied, their4 u mst be bad", but is this really any different from "Oh u r wareing a green item, their4 ur deeps mst be bad"? At least this way people can actually prove that they're damage/healing is on par, even if they're slightly undergeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAgeOrgins Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I will quit if they are added recount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKHY Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I need recount now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 I will quit if they are added recount. I will quit if they don't. Equally useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostvein Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Actually DPS requirements by WoW pugs is usually 1.5 to 2 times that required to kill content. That is why so many don't want it in this game. If you don't have the perfect build, perfect rotation and out gear the content you cannot meet the ridiculous requirements of most pugs in WoW. End game content is not meant to be face-rolled by everyone attempting it. Have all the people whining about not having meters attempted the content they can't beat for 2-3 weeks in a row. Hell no. What they really want is to join the military. They want someone to tell them what cookie cutter build they need, what rotation they have to use, and someone to tell them that if they can't cut it (doing everything perfectly) to get the hell out. Its 1.5 to 2 times the requirement because you cant really trust anyone in the group to be as competent as they claim they are. Further, in the case of unexpected deaths (common in pugs) the extra DPS you have on hand makes you able to kill the boss. If the bare minimum is 10k per person, and everyone pulls 10k, someone dying most likely equals a wipe. You don't have to do everything perfectly, either. There are usually commonly accepted DPS benchmarks that most people adhere to, and they are in no way unreasonable. 10k is a common number people used in Cataclysm as a bare minimum requirement. 10k at 85 is balls to the wall terrible, absolutely abysmal, could do that much from basically auto-attacking while hitting random buttons and yet very few got kicked for low DPS if they were pulling over 10k in a raid fully buffed if the raid was going well. Considering people were pulling well over 10k at 80, asking for people to pull that n group content 5 levels and hundreds of Ilvls later was not unreasonable, and people who couldn't hit that benchmark should not have been in a raid period. Edited January 22, 2012 by Frostvein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wikimon Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Its 1.5 to 2 times the requirement because you cant really trust anyone in the group to be as competent as they claim they are. Further, in the case of unexpected deaths (common in pugs) the extra DPS you have on hand makes you able to kill the boss. If the bare minimum is 10k per person, and everyone pulls 10k, someone dying most likely equals a wipe. what do you think of a person who just does the bare minimum, Joanna? hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenStarkill Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 What really grinds my gear is all the people pointing out how Recount somehow spoiled WoW. Yes I can see how Recount really caused the downfall of WoW and so many people don't play because of that add-on...oh wait... It is ridiculous how many people don't want this ion ToR simply because it is in WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windry Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think Recount or Star Wars World of Logs is absolutely needed in this game. MMO's thrive on people pushing themselves to be better, and these are great tools for those goals. I do acknowledge however, that Recount was the #1 cause of bugs, memory leaks, and crazy unplayable lag in WoW. Every time a new patch for WoW came out, someone would always say, "man, this is unplayable, my comp is going crazy," and the answer was always, turn off recount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 What really grinds my gear is all the people pointing out how Recount somehow spoiled WoW. Yes I can see how Recount really caused the downfall of WoW and so many people don't play because of that add-on...oh wait... It is ridiculous how many people don't want this ion ToR simply because it is in WoW. Whats more rediculious is how many people want recount, damage meters, mods, & macros in Tor simply because they are in Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almagnus Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Whats more rediculious is how many people want recount, damage meters, mods, & macros in Tor simply because they are in Wow. It's like crack addicts when you take away their crack.... They can't learn to do without, they must have their crack. And any who would deny them their crack are slacker n00bs who don't want to push themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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