Nindoriel Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 how about friend C and friend D care about who was faster they need a stopwatch but no all stopwatch was destroyed and banned from the world, THAT's what happening here my dear friend "A" who think only for himself It's not selfish to want this game to be the way you enjoy it the most. We all want that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabarok Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 After reading the wonderful arguments for and against damage meters, I feel compelled to reply. I'd like to say first off, Bioware should offer the feature of add ins and/or damage meters. All the people who complain about damage meters have either just had horrible experiences with unregulated posting of stats in raid, or are afraid of being exposed for not being good. Regardless, people who enjoy optimization, performance comparisons, and benchmarking raid dps (which like it or not, is critical for success), then don't join that guild. If you don't like how a guild uses meters and add ins, DON'T JOIN them. In the end its your choice how you want to experience the game, but don't limit people who care about progression, benchmarking, and simply running the math to see how far they can take a class. It all comes back to choice, no one is making you use one, no one is forcing you to join a party or guild. But excluding features/add ins which a vast amount of people appreciate and enjoy to cater to people who refuse to play a game because a mathematical tool is implement is simply unfair, unreasonable, and logically flawed. Fact is, you want to experience and enjoy end-game content, using math is a good idea . Because, any loot handed to you, isn't loot worth obtaining. I urge the people against meters to at-least acknowledge your taking away something from us people who care. And if abuse of the meters happens in your guild, then its failure on your leaderships part, not Bioware's. Loot obtained by following some pattern of "perfect DPS" figured out by someone else on the forum is somehow more "earned" than a group of players who are raiding without a crutch? The lack of Damage meters hasn't stopped other MMOs from having strong raiding groups. It's part of the challenge. Using DPS meters and threat meters is "handing loot to you". In Anarchy Online, there was a big 3rd party damage meter fad which was popular for a while in groups, but quickly fell in disuse because of how negatively it was affecting gameplay. As soon as 1 player posted damage stats in the team chat, you could see an immediate change in how the team behaved. Players were dying because they were putting the team at risk to try and farm as much DPS as they possibly could. It continued to find use in cross-guild raids for creating top lists for damage users in raids where the only strategy is tank & spank (raids with 100+ participants). I want to see combat log because that is very helpful for figuring things out, but I say leave the damage meter to 3rd party addons/mods. Let those that want it go out of their way to have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syngin Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Yes for Recount and Combat Logs... so I can tell which one of y'all suck at DPS or Healing. Don't be mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross_deutsch Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Casual players ftw **** you elite wannabe f*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHeissi Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) WHAT THE HELL! I just posted a long constructive post in a thread about combat logs. Unfortunately this thread was closed while writing the content and now my time was just *********** wasted. **** you vBulletin! I know this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I am so angry right now, I have to blow off some steam. Done. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Edited January 25, 2012 by GHeissi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navarh Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Because you feel you have the right to judge my worth as a team member on the numbers you'll find. let's sseeeeee you whaste time of whole group you cause problems to whole group you make whole group mad and we don't have a right to judge you? WHAT?… Some novelty for you perhaps, how about you judge me for the part I play in the group? nice try, but no i can read log perfectly, i can pull-out any kind of information from it for example you dps is low becourse that healer just don't heal you, and half of the time you trying to stay alive and can't dps at all, how about this? low-quality dps-meter that will show only numbers yes will be worthless that's why people asking for combat log and not that show only yourself… how about you tank, you died from boss-hit and you don't see any heal on you, why? oh poor thing, you don't need to know that… go blame healer for that, ofc he is in fault there, he was cc by boss and not dispelled himself ya? I know my dps is good, I know I'm a decent player with a brain. I do not have to prove that to you via numbers. if i really "do not have to prove anything" i simply dooooonnnt careee what they saying, buuut that not the case here… Years of experience with meters in 'another game' have learned me that it will be abused and misinterpreted by brats who think the world of themselves. i'll quote and that combat logs are just one of many tools they use to do that. Others include things like chat. let's remove the chat then, yup? tool that used by bad people to abuse must be removed like a phone, yup? bad ppl can harass other with it and the car, yup? bad ppl can hurt other with it and a chair, yup? bad ppl can hit you with it and a *insert_anything_here* just becourse baaad people can do baad thing's with it that's what you saying, yes? answer me oh another marvelous example, bad ppl can hurt you with their arm's so let's cut them, yeah? Edited January 25, 2012 by navarh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mursy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Yes, it is a must have for serious endgame content guilds. To address the concerns of people against it: - Should contain, by default, personal data only - The party/operation leader should have an option to see data of players that opt to share their information with their glorious leader Its all well and good to approach an op with the intention of succeeding, but this is a game to be played for the fun of it. The team work skills you learn are useful, but most of the accomplishments are empty and have little bearing on real life. I don't recall any employer asking me what my DPS rating is. Every time I hear the term 'serious raiding guild' or 'serious pvp guild' I laugh. I am here to have some fun, not spend hours tweaking some stat that is meaningless in the real world, I get enough of that at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arugess Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 As a guild MT I used recount quite a bit back when I played WoW in the TBC days. While it had some use, things like BigWigs and LittleWigs were far more useful. And people understanding how to gear themselves were far more useful. A person who doesn't know how to optimize their play just needs a friendly mate to help them. A damage meter is not going to help with that, and frankly all it will do is discourage them. There are only 2 annoying cases when a person sees fit to publish damage meter numbers: 1) Raid leader giving a report to the group. Proper application of this is probably like 1% of the times a damage report is published. 2) The 99% of the time is Top DPS in the group who can't keep their ego in check. Anyone who is not #1 will never publish the damage report, but the second they do hit #1 they will spam that report like there is no tomorrow. Its super duper annoying, so if you're one of those people - 1) don't do it, and 2) realize half of why you got there was because you kept on prematurely attacking the target, causing more damage against you, and causing the healer to waste more resources unnecessarily against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrobes Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 No I don't support it. It will corrupt this game beyond repair. Look past your instant-wants, and think about it a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) how about friend C and friend D care about who was faster they need a stopwatch but no all stopwatch was destroyed and banned from the world, THAT's what happening here my dear friend "A" who think only for himself Except, they don't need a stopwatch, they can just start at the same time and see which one finished first. Uh oh.. Edit: I'm not against recount per se, but saying that you need it is ridiculous. Edited January 25, 2012 by Truga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragamer Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Recount and any analysis tool reduces the length of the content and the fun factor... Why? Simple... ...By steamlining content. The ones "thinking" are a few and the ones "copying" are the mayority. That's the net effect of all this tools at the end of the day. Makes ppl play like robots and create expectations of ppl have to play like robots. Then, each tool averaging mechanism creates a subculture of "parser players" that are disconnected form the reality of the encounter and instead are worried about scoring high. Most theories and "proofs" are just born of the basic lack of knowledge that ANY average is by definition a false representation of the phenomena they are applied to. You will see tons of posts, recordings and that based on averages that, ofc, on a decently designed PvE content tells nothing about what's needed in reality or the relative importance of the WHEN. Then, once the most optimal way to play is found and copied into oblivion, specific classes/builds & players are made obsolete... Which in turn force Devs to spend more energies not just into balancing the classes but to be sure that ALL are "parse worthy" which is, again, a lie. At the end of the day... What matter is on the field performance. if you are so concerned then check the results and pay attention to who is doing what... You will know who is doing their job and who doesn't, and more importantly, you and your group of friends do not need to go around copying what some "enlightened" guy seem to be proving on the forums... You have all the proof you need... A dead corpse. If you are concerned about your E-fame, your E-***** and appearing you are right... Then indeed, you need a table with you on top... But before ashaming yourself, please, take care of learning how to "forge" a parse reading without collaborating to the real effort of a kill. EDIT: I should clarify... I love to test things and learn things on a game, and as such, I would kill to have a detailed combat log to report back bugs with increased accuracy... But as I know what they are used to publicly, at the end, I prefer to NOT have a combat log so the Community doesn't end like a bunch of Zombies guided by a reduced set of "Theorycrafters". Edited January 25, 2012 by ragamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yinten Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 This is becoming silly. Its a feature that is included in most MMOs and was really odd that it was left out to begin with. BW already said that combat logs were VERY high on their priority list. So i really dont see the point of defending this anymore... The people that want this obviously out number the people that dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frigidman Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Eh. If they put it in, I won't ragequit over the action. And if they don't bother, fine by me. This game doesn't NEED it like other games did. There comes a point of adding things in 'because such-n-such other game had it' vs 'does sw:tor actually benefit from it'. And from what I have seen of endgame, alts, republic, sith, heorics, and raids ... sw:tor really doesn't NEED it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragamer Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Its a feature that is included in most MMOs and was really odd that it was left out to begin with Contrary to the typical forum approach... ...Repeating something doesn't make it better... ...Only does make you stumble on the same pitfalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomini Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) Well, I do not want it and don't think it needs it, tbh. *shrug!* But it won't really effect me too much other than my ignore list getting larger, for those who are really obnoxious about how much they let it dictate their every action/reaction in groups. I raided to hang out with people I like and to have fun, and never had any probs with us accomplishing things or with getting good gear while having some lulz. Ultimately, it seems that a fair amount of people are interested in turning this game into every-other-MMO and every-other-MMO-community out there, so it'll probably happen. Because according to a lot of peeps in gen chat, it is just a "WoW clone in space"...therefore it should have the things that the other game has. I can say that if this happens, then I hope they'll at least roll out dungeon finder n' queues for flashpoints, so I can see the "Well my combat log says that dude sucks so let's vote to kick" wangst fests and have to click the kick or not kick button in yet another game. Love it when there's a hold up in instances because of number crunch bickering between two people that I don't even know, especially if I only have so long to run stuff. Happened quite a lot in other games, which kinda sucked, but people are people. Blah! C'est la vie, I suppose. That's what dropping instance/group and requeue is for! Edited January 28, 2012 by Anomini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimism Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 If people don't want recount then the only way classes will get nerfed/buff is by the shear amount of QQ. Case and point the great Operative nerf in 1.1.1. Apparently we're still critting people for 9-10k. It has to be true because other Sorcs/BH are seeing the pre 1.1 vids and screenshots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabarok Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 If people don't want recount then the only way classes will get nerfed/buff is by the shear amount of QQ. Case and point the great Operative nerf in 1.1.1. Apparently we're still critting people for 9-10k. It has to be true because other Sorcs/BH are seeing the pre 1.1 vids and screenshots. Right, because the only source of information Bioware for stats are are forum posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nurvus Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I support a personal recount (only your information is measured). I know all about the "it's not the tool, but the way it's used" argument, but when a tool can be abused in the wrong way, it ALWAYS is. Mentality changes - you worry more about numbers, less about the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akkalevil Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) Nothing wrong with wanting to improve yourself and your gameplay. A personal meter, only you can see, would fit nicely with that. Biggest misconceptions in this discussion are: 1. People who want dps meters have high dps, are competitive and are skilled players. 2. People who don't want dps meters have low dps, are non-competitive and are bad players. 3. A dps meter is 'just a tool' that has no impact on how people treat eachother in game. And some other misconceptions thrown in a lot : 1 - You can perfectly evaluate your performance, without any objective measure tool. 2 - You can just find how to improve without any way to measure if you're actually performing better. 3 - Only people with e-peen mania care about to know how they actually perform. Edited January 28, 2012 by Akkalevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardTosk Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) 1 - You can perfectly evaluate your performance, without any objective measure tool. -Is the enemy dead? -Are you still alive? If you answered yes to either, congratulations you're fine. That was tough. 2 - You can just find how to improve without any way to measure if you're actually performing better. Hi, welcome to the internet. It's your first day here right? 3 - Only people with e-peen mania care about to know how they actually perform.The problem isn't the epeeners caring about how THEY preform. I main a tank btw not a dps. Edited January 30, 2012 by ShardTosk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nwendor Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Its fine to look a DPS and to try to improve, so one can do this with a DPS/recount type meter they see themselves, it does not need to be a group thing or something that discourages game play. Recount is really unfair because it does not measure each individuals contribution accurately. It's not all about DPS people. Its about surviving the fight, getting out of the bad stuff and using your abilities. A dps meter can not show that. Also some abilties that benefit the whole group and enhance everyones dps is not credited to the player that has that abillty. So by most meter lovers way of thinking the player with the lowest dps should improve or be replaced in the group, while they may be the one contributing an overall dps gain that does not show in the meter because they did not deal that damage. So I have always thought recount was just unfair from that point of view. It also discourages players from keeping their subscription going. I know people who have quit other MMOs because the recount issue and Guild /group leaders that are just rude. Who cares if a player has only one blue item and the rest green, if they are not allowed in groups because their dps sucks, they will never have better gear so why play at all. The game should be fun first. If you go in a fight and you wipe, then try again later or try a different approach to survive the fight. A personal dps meter would aid the individual, try different rotations and what-not. But if there is a group dps meter in game I would not play with any guild or group that used it, so if you do impliment a group meter, just allow us to opt-out. Don't add dps to the meter if they opt out of it for group. If the group doesnt want my toon because its opted out, then too bad for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkate Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 This is becoming silly. Its a feature that is included in most MMOs and was really odd that it was left out to begin with. BW already said that combat logs were VERY high on their priority list. So i really dont see the point of defending this anymore... The people that want this obviously out number the people that dont. You are correct. This IS becoming silly. I mean most new MMOs after WoW include recount style meters (or allow addons with them) BECAUSE WoW has them. Does that make them necessary? No. Every new game after WoW has tried to copy and/or one up WoW and most have failed. I really don't see the point of doing what every other failed MMO has done and copy WoW. The people that don't want recount obviously outnumber the people that do. (See, just because you or I state something as fact in a forum doesn't make it so.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachajariah Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 The people that don't want damage meters are just plain....silly( keeping it respectful ) Im tired of mashing random buttons THINKING I know my best rotation, when you can only really know this with numbers proving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RachelAnne Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 The people that don't want damage meters are just plain....silly( keeping it respectful ) Im tired of mashing random buttons THINKING I know my best rotation, when you can only really know this with numbers proving it. While you do your rotation the tank dies or the healer goes oom, hmm I am not sure that this does make the experience better for you and your group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akkalevil Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) -Is the enemy dead? -Are you still alive? If you answered yes to either, congratulations you're fine. That was tough. That was completely ridiculous, more than anything. Thanks for proving you either don't get the point, or purposedly ignore it. Hi, welcome to the internet. It's your first day here right? And this additionnal completely pointless answer tends to reinforce the conclusion above. While you do your rotation the tank dies or the healer goes oom, hmm I am not sure that this does make the experience better for you and your group Yeah, because obviously trying to keep a good rotation prevents you to do anything else... And someone who doesn't know if he's efficient suddendly become (somehow) much more aware and magically better at reacting with what happens in the fight ! These answers are more and more ridiculous, and I'm staying polite... Recount is really unfair because it does not measure each individuals contribution accurately. It's not all about DPS people. Its about surviving the fight, getting out of the bad stuff and using your abilities. A dps meter can not show that. Actually, Recount shows a lot more than just a DPS number. You can see which abilities were used and what happened the few seconds before a death, which amount of damage someone dealt or received and from which sources, etc. Recount is just a superb tool very often misused (and this misuse is the main and best argument of the anti-recount people, as it's something very real and very frequent). It's, as usual, all in HOW you use it. You use it to log the details and crunch the numbers. You DON'T use it to see how people behave, where they go and if they're switf to act. Recount is the main tool to ANALYZE the NUMBERS of a fight, but you are supposed to keep your eyes open to see what actions happened. Edited January 31, 2012 by Akkalevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts